The Nature of the Ghostly Reis: Rei/Lilith/GNR and all that

[AuraTwilight]

I have a problem with the entire sent back in time thing. firstly the idea of time travel hasn't even been touched on before.

Except it has. It probably got lost in all the psychobabble.

Even god can't send his prophets back to stop things happening.

Let's not go there.

And apart from her role as narrative bookmarker why would she choose to manifest there. It serves no purpose. I know she needs to watch Shinji, (why else does she need so many eyes) but why then.

He only saw her at that moment; she's probably always watching him.

furthermore the idea that she can travel back in time throws into doubt that any of the reis seen through the story are real.

No, it doesn't. At all.

What seems more likely is that Shinji is viewing the series in retrospect once he ahs been absorbed, which is why some characters seem to be manifestations of his own tendancies feelings. As he has been absorbed into Rei by then she can appear in his memories.

What? That's even worse than Rei time travelling. You're complaining about the time travel idea not being brought up earlier and casting doubt on Rei's reality and you counter with an idea that is even less supported and casts doubt on literally everything by turning everything into an imaginary retrospective of something we've never seen.

[Azathoth]

What? That's even worse than Rei time travelling. You're complaining about the time travel idea not being brought up earlier and casting doubt on Rei's reality and you counter with an idea that is even less supported and casts doubt on literally everything by turning everything into an imaginary retrospective of something we've never seen.

While it's no reason to doubt the Ghostly Reis' existence, I don't think the "entire series is a flashback during Instrumentality" theory is as ridiculous as you make it out to be. I don't think that said theory can be used to say "that's why characters x, y, and z reflect parts of Shinji's psyche", but it is hinted at with tracks 25/26 on the SDAT player.

Also, on one or two narrations, doesn't Shinji kind of break the fourth wall and narrate something directly to the audience? I'm thinking of Misato's breakdown when she gets Kaji's message. After Shinji fails it up, when he's lying in his bedroom, a Shinji narrator voice comments - sounding quite ashamed - on the fact that he failed to help Misato at that time.

[TheLobe]

remeber in death how as each character was introduced they had them playing an instrument. It's like narration without words. The chracters were looking back on the series.
The fact is ghostly Rei's have no reason to exist at that particular time and place, except as a narrative bookmark of when ther story begins and ends.

[AuraTwilight]

The Ghostly Rei's have every reason to exist at that time and place. My personal interpretation of that bookmarking is an indication that, even if Shinji can't see them, Rei will always watch him in every point of time/space, from the moment he's born to the moment he dies.

[Kaozz]

Rei haves lilith soul, lilith is the progenitor of the lilims.

So Rei imo, is kinda like a watcher of humanity, i mean c'mon...she has the soul of the creator of lilims.

[Azathoth]

I can sort of understand it if I ignore Miyamura, but I have to also postulate some reason for Shinji to think that that Asuka wasn't separate from him - hallucinations? False awakenings from the LCL sea?)

The bookend Rei surely counts as a hallucination, doesn't it? I think people tend to ignore her significance to Shinji in favor of considering her symbolic meaning as the audience/Anno with its final impotent voyeuristic peek into the protagonist's breakdown and failed recoveries - but really, seeing a bookend Rei again would be an absolutely earth-shattering thing for Shinji. Not only does it force him to consider the possibility that he's gone crazy and is watching dead people blink in and out of existence all around him, but it forces him to consider the possibility that he has been insane and delusional since the very beginning. Sudden and inexplicable hallucinations can induce bizarre and impulsive behavior in perfectly sane people - of whom Shinji is not one.

Really I'm surprised that this hasn't been discussed more. Shinji doesn't act very surprised when he sees the first bookend Rei (although he does seem a little disturbed by the memory when Rei actually shows up in the flesh) but the appearance of the second Rei is directly responsible for him turning his head and thus noticing Asuka. In fact, he actually sits up and stares at the place where Rei was for a few seconds before he looks towards Asuka. Next time we see them (after surreal landscape shots which can't be from Shinji's perspective and really I don't know what they're there for) he is choking her.

[symbv]

The bookend Rei surely counts as a hallucination, doesn't it? I think people tend to ignore her significance to Shinji in favor of considering her symbolic meaning as the audience/Anno with its final impotent voyeuristic peek into the protagonist's breakdown and failed recoveries - but really, seeing a bookend Rei again would be an absolutely earth-shattering thing for Shinji. Not only does it force him to consider the possibility that he's gone crazy and is watching dead people blink in and out of existence all around him, but it forces him to consider the possibility that he has been insane and delusional since the very beginning. Sudden and inexplicable hallucinations can induce bizarre and impulsive behavior in perfectly sane people - of whom Shinji is not one.

Actually I think it hints at Rei not really being dead but it exists somewhere. And she actually helped Shinji to take notice of Asuka.

Have to say that since I have not watched EoE for >10 years my memory can be a bit rusty. But that was how I interpreted it when I last watched/read it (I read the film comics too).

[Legendary]

The bookend Rei surely counts as a hallucination, doesn't it?

Considering Rei in episode 1, I'd say "No." Shinji doesn't see Rei in person until the latter half of episode 1, so he shouldn't hallucinate her. If she appears randomly once, then the latter appearance makes sense as being real.

[Bagheera]

Considering Rei in episode 1, I'd say "No." Shinji doesn't see Rei in person until the latter half of episode 1, so he shouldn't hallucinate her. If she appears randomly once, then the latter appearance makes sense as being real.

I think it's more a question of how he'd see it at that point.

[liquidus118]

The bookend Rei surely counts as a hallucination, doesn't it? I think people tend to ignore her significance to Shinji in favor of considering her symbolic meaning as the audience/Anno with its final impotent voyeuristic peek into the protagonist's breakdown and failed recoveries - but really, seeing a bookend Rei again would be an absolutely earth-shattering thing for Shinji. Not only does it force him to consider the possibility that he's gone crazy and is watching dead people blink in and out of existence all around him, but it forces him to consider the possibility that he has been insane and delusional since the very beginning. Sudden and inexplicable hallucinations can induce bizarre and impulsive behavior in perfectly sane people - of whom Shinji is not one.

Really I'm surprised that this hasn't been discussed more. Shinji doesn't act very surprised when he sees the first bookend Rei (although he does seem a little disturbed by the memory when Rei actually shows up in the flesh) but the appearance of the second Rei is directly responsible for him turning his head and thus noticing Asuka. In fact, he actually sits up and stares at the place where Rei was for a few seconds before he looks towards Asuka. Next time we see them (after surreal landscape shots which can't be from Shinji's perspective and really I don't know what they're there for) he is choking her.

We see on several occasions in EoE Rei standing over characters as they died, I believe this is supposed to imply that she carries them to and from death. Whilst I don't know the specifics of why/ how etc, I believe the fact that this only happens whilst Rei III (The fully-souled Rei) is around is important to note. Therefore, I believe it's simply making the point that Rei has helped bring Asuka back. As well as bookending the series for whatever reason Anno had in mind.

[Sailor Star Dust]

The bookend Rei surely counts as a hallucination, doesn't it?

Nope:

When Shinji comes to New Tokyo-3, he sees a girl that seems to be Rei Ayanami for just an instant. Considering how she is injured and wrapped up in bandages, when he later meets her in NERV Headquarters, the natural assumption would be to think that this was a phantom vision. But in Episode 26, "My True Heart For You," a different possibility is suggested. The girl that appeared for just one cut in this scene may be the Rei Ayanami who is "the existence that gazes upon man."

http://www.evamonkey.com/platinum-booklets/episode-commentaries-01-06.php

And it was discussed a lot in several threads. Here's what our Wiki says about it (which might need some touching up, yeah): http://wiki.evageeks.org/Theory_and_Analysis:Rei%27s_Ghostly_Appearances_and_Quantum_Mechanics

The fanon assumption is that Bookend Rei and Helltrain Rei is Rei-3's soul post-EoE (basically, Lilith becomes Rei as EoE implies instead of the othe way around) considering how EoE demonstrates Rei can be in several places at once. Along with Rei 3 being the Rei that's depicted in her school uniform when her multiplicity comes into play.

Be sure to read this whole thread http://forum.evageeks.org/viewtopic.php?t=8420 for more discussion on the matter.

[Someone]

Maybe Shinji is just hallucinating?

Or maybe Rei has the ability to appear in random places and glare at people? Must....not.....make....Weegee.....joke.......

[Azathoth]

[quote="Sailor Star Dust":1n2w370o][/quote:1n2w370o]

All of which I know, and none of which Shinji does

[thewayneiac]

The bookend Rei surely counts as a hallucination, doesn't it?

No it certainly does not. The only hallucination I can think of in Eva is in Ep. 04 when Shinji thinks the buildings are closing in on him. All of the mind trip scenes, train scenes, and Ghostly Rei scenes are real, triggered by Instrumentality, or by Rei 3 Quantum Magic pseudo-Instrumentality. It is never "all in his mind".

All of which I know, and none of which Shinji does

I'm not sure I understand your point here. Because Shinji doesn't have complete knowledge of Rei's nature that makes her not real??? Besides, after going through Instrumentality, wouldn't he pretty much have figured it out?

[esselfortium]

thewayneiac, I believe the idea Azathoth was trying to get across is that Shinji at that point could very easily not be sure of his own reality. And with all he's been through that day (or [insert length of time]) I don't think it's a farfetched supposition. Whether or not she's real has no bearing on whether or not he at that point knows she is -- for the purpose of the story we know she's real, but there are a lot of things in NGE that we know as the audience, that totally elude Shinji.

[AuraTwilight]

Yea, you guys are overreacting. What Azathoth is saying is that Shinji would think it's a hallucination, and that since he saw the same thing before he saw Rei for the first time, he might think he dreamed up the whole series. God knows he's fucking snapped pretty hard as it is, and it's a theory viewers had come up with themselves...

Basically the idea is that Shinji thinks nothing is real, therefore he's killing dream-Asuka. Thus the touch of the hand might make him second-guess the "hallucination theory" again.

[Sailor Star Dust]

Well, yeah, Shinji thinking Asuka (and Rei) was a hallucination in the final scene is a possibility, considering he has that bug-eyed look the entire time.

Also, I personally misunderstood what Azathoth was saying. lol reading comprehension.

[LilithInTheBasement]

My idea is that the Rei's don't just show up at death, but at the beginning of life as well. Shinji saw one at the start of the series, and again after life was destroyed and recreated. To me, it's symbolic of a cycle. As in, Shinji came into being in 2015 and then his existence cascades into both the past and future from that point. Same thing happens in the last scene of the original film.

[thewayneiac]

My idea is that the Rei's don't just show up at death, but at the beginning of life as well. Shinji saw one at the start of the series, and again after life was destroyed and recreated. To me, it's symbolic of a cycle. As in, Shinji came into being in 2015 and then his existence cascades into both the past and future from that point. Same thing happens in the last scene of the original film.

Ummm... Can you cite any evidence in the show to prove that's all this means? Just to make sure I understand this theory: Are you saying that Lilith/Rei created Shinji, and probably the entire world in 2015, and retroactively created everyone's backstory and all of history at this time as well? Why would she create such a screwed up situation?

I dunno... that sounds more like Haruhi than Rei.

[Someone]

I dunno... that sounds more like GAINAX than Rei.

There you go.