2 Questions about Kaworu

[Count A'ight]

Holy shit, that's even more awesome than Gendo Kaworu and Duel of the Seeds combined.

SRSLY?

"That Shinji dudes hot"

What bothers me most about this one is that either Rei OR Kaworu could have said it

[Reichu]

I suspect that his "smile of betrayal" (to quote Reichu) toward Rei might play a part in answering these questions. He might have made a backdoor pact with Rei...

That's a lot of fanwank based on a single, really vague caption from the full-length opening.

[Count A'ight]

Indeen.

But it's fun to think about, and pretty much every new idea or interpretation that gets mentioned on these forums will be at least 90% fanwank.

[V]

how was that a "smile of betrayal" by Kaworu?

[Reichu]

But it's fun to think about, and pretty much every new idea or interpretation that gets mentioned on these forums will be at least 90% fanwank.

My meaning was that, if you're going to try to work that caption into an interpretation of the show, it's preferable to do so while making up as little BS as possible.

how was that a "smile of betrayal" by Kaworu?

You got me. See here.

[Count A'ight]

My meaning was that, if you're going to try to work that caption into an interpretation of the show, it's preferable to do so while making up as little BS as possible.

I'd like to hear your explanation, if you have one.

And no, that's not sarcasm.

[Reichu]

There isn't anything to explain, really. It's just the concept of parsimony. A simple explanation is usually better. So instead of using a really vague caption (with multiple possible translations) as the basis for an outlandish theory, one should try to interpret the caption without having to actually "make up" anything beyond what is "foundationally" there. No attempt was made to posit a simpler interpretation, either; the caption was just kind of thrown into the thread without proper introduction, in order to "support" a "fanwank".

[Count A'ight]

the basis for an outlandish theory

I'd hardly call it a "theory". It was more of a casual, wild-ass suggestion.

[Zaque]

A little late in answering, but here's some thoughts:

1. From his time interacting with Shinji, he felt that it would be best to let Shinji decide. He didn't want to kill himself, but rather have Shinji kill him, and if Shinji didn't, it meant to him that Shinji would have accepted his own death, and therefore kaworu would still grant Shinji's wish, this time in destroying humanity. I could just say that he loved Shinji and leave it at that. Pretty much, there was an either or decision, and he wanted Shinji to decide the outcome.

2. He didn't choose to die, he had Shinji do it for him. And maybe he felt as though he owed something to Seele and didn't want to retaliate. They had manipulated him this far anyway. Moreover, because he didn't care much for living or dying, he took the simpler route. Or he just didn't think of it at the time, focusing too much on whether or not Shinji would kill him, or he would subsequently kill all of humanity.

In other words, pretty much what Reichu said here:

Kaworu believed (correctly or not) that his continued existence would be at our expense, and hence his death was for the benefit of humanity's future. Therefore, having Shinji kill him was a sort of weird symbolic way of putting the future in Shinji's hands. I guess.

And on Count A'ight's fanwank, while it may be possible, I don't think it is probable. at the time of their interaction, rei3 hadn't recovered her senses, and there were really no other times in the course of the show that would have led to their meeting.

[VoidEater]

Largely, I see Kaworu's plight is one of parental expectations/instincts versus free will.

1. Why didn't he kill himself, instead of asking Shinji to?

I suspect that a SoL has some basic "programming" to carry forth its mission sans suicide, regardless of what body it's in. Some conditioning or core beliefs or programming may force certain decisions to be made by others - vis a vis GNR looking to Shinji to choose Instrumentality.

It is his destiny to live forever, yet he says he can be killed (an interesting way of not saying "I can die").

Shinji/Anno goes through this with the "I mustn't run away" litany, which may be a watered down Freudian Thanatos/suicide wish. Running away becomes metaphor for suicide, and suicide is obliquely dealt with. The Freudian Eros may be viewed as instinct or societal programming preventing suicide.

For Kaworu, it is a strong revulsion away from an act (suicide), yet it is a wished for outcome (death).

2. If he was against killing humanity, why did he choose to die? Why didn't he try to help take down Seele?

Adam/Kaworu may be just really tired of the whole existence thing. He is after all the single oldest entity we see in the series - possibly Lilith is the same age, but she was apparently a later comer to the scene.

He may not view himself as an active player in the cosmic dance (at least once he sees his body isn't where he thought it would be), and be ready to turn over decisions to others.

As he says, death may be the only real choice anyone has - and maybe he had chosen to exercise that singular option. Yet, he may still have been incapable of or unwilling to take that definitive step, relying on the kindness of strangers for the coup de grace.

What changed between his travel down to Terminal Dogma and his, "Oh, well" attitude? He discovers Adam's body is not there (maybe he planned to "go home" like Rei does later), realizes that his presumed intent of destroying man (through an angel returning to Adam) is stymied, and it seems he has a revelation about what finding Lilith means regarding the Lilim - perhaps Lilim returning to Lilith has some meaning to him as does an Angel returning to Adam.

Yet there is also that "I meant to do that" speech at the end - that he wanted Shinji to stop Eva 02, otherwise he would live much longer. To me, this suggests another "prime directive" might be in effect: just as it may be that Adam cannot kill himself, maybe Angels (including Tabris) have no choice but to return to Adam.

A play between inner hopes and (societal or instinctual) constraints. "I would like to die, but I am not allowed to kill myself. I would like to let the Lilim live, but I am compelled to return to Adam. Hey, I did what I was supposed to do, now I am more free."

This would seem to be in line with much of what Anno wants to say about life in general.

In the end, he certainly doesn't have much ego investment in his own existence: he says it doesn't matter much if he lives or not. Further, his life was meaningful "because of you" (apparently Shinji, based on a short personal relationship, or possibly all Lilim). Since little occurs in the physical world within their relationship, the meaning is referencing an internal process of experience or discovery that Kaworu obtains.

He values the Lilim more than the Angels or himself.

As for his attitude toward Seele - well, he hasn't given much indication (that I recall) that Seele means much to him one way or the other. He seems to have become more aware more quickly than Rei, able to shrug off the designs that humans place upon him (as Rei does later) - but perhaps not the designs placed upon him by his creators.