2 Questions about Kaworu

For serious and at times in-depth discussions only.

Moderator: Board Staff

The Goose
Matarael
Matarael
Posts: 570
Joined: Dec 03, 2006
Gender: Male

2 Questions about Kaworu

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby The Goose » Sat Dec 27, 2008 6:10 pm

1. Why didn't he kill himself, instead of asking Shinji to?

2. If he was against killing humanity, why did he choose to die? Why didn't he try to help take down Seele?

Sailor Star Dust
Kept you waiting, huh?
Kept you waiting, huh?
User avatar
Age: 34
Posts: 22917
Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Location: Living in Houston, TX
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Sailor Star Dust » Sat Dec 27, 2008 8:43 pm

1) My guess is he wasn't able to kill himself if Angels are apparently immortal in some way. (Without the Eva around I guess?) Or maybe it's a SoL thing.

2) Good question. If the Eva2 game is any indication, Shinji can talk Kaworu out of dying and he becomes a regular Eva pilot, but I'm really not sure why in the anime this possibility wasn't mentioned. Other than the fact Kaworu's death symbolizes Shinji rejecting the ideal (Kaworu and later Instrumentality) for the real (Asuka and later reality).
~Take care of yourself, I need you~

Sachi
Oh Daddy!
Oh Daddy!
User avatar
Age: 26
Posts: 10085
Joined: Aug 29, 2006
Location: Hollywoo
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Sachi » Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:32 pm

1) Perhaps he isn't capable of killing himself?

2) Even if Shinji had let him live, Nerv probably wouldn't. With Kaworu around, the risks would be too great to ignore.
- Sachi

I host an unofficial EGF discord server. The usual suspects are here. https://discord.gg/Djzkh8Q

The Goose
Matarael
Matarael
Posts: 570
Joined: Dec 03, 2006
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby The Goose » Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:42 pm

Sailor Star Dust wrote: My guess is he wasn't able to kill himself if Angels are apparently immortal in some way. (Without the Eva around I guess?) Or maybe it's a SoL thing.


Kaworu says that he can die, but he never mentions anything about Angels being immortal.

but I'm really not sure why in the anime this possibility wasn't mentioned.


I can't be sure, but when Shinji says that Kaworu should have survived, Mistao does say that Kaworu didn't have the will to live and instead wished for death and a belief in a false hope (whatever that means.)

Reichu
Death True True
Death True True
User avatar
Posts: 23759
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Starship Eva
Gender: Female
Contact:

Re: 2 Questions about Kaworu

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:52 pm

The Goose wrote:1. Why didn't he kill himself, instead of asking Shinji to?

Possibilities:

- "I cannot self-terminate."
- Suicide is a sin and Kaworu needs to stay out of the fiery pit.
- Kaworu is an asshole and intentionally wanted to fuck Shinji up.
- Kaworu believed (correctly or not) that his continued existence would be at our expense, and hence his death was for the benefit of humanity's future. Therefore, having Shinji kill him was a sort of weird symbolic way of putting the future in Shinji's hands. I guess.

2. If he was against killing humanity, why did he choose to die? Why didn't he try to help take down Seele?

Because Kaworu is a wishy-washy little bitch who wasn't actually 100% sure how he wanted things to end up. After the other possibilities he'd been considering were conveniently eliminated, he just dove straight into dramatic improvisation, with the result that none of what he says makes any real sense, but it makes him "look pretty damn good".

Kaworu says that he can die, but he never mentions anything about Angels being immortal.

He says "I'm destined to live forever", for whatever that's worth.

SSD wrote:If the Eva2 game is any indication, Shinji can talk Kaworu out of dying and he becomes a regular Eva pilot, but I'm really not sure why in the anime this possibility wasn't mentioned.

Where the heck would they "mention" it?
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
Father Brother Lover Mother (AO3, FF.net)
The path to an alternate Third Impact has reached stage 19 (5/22)!

The Goose
Matarael
Matarael
Posts: 570
Joined: Dec 03, 2006
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby The Goose » Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:31 am

He says "I'm destined to live forever", for whatever that's worth.


True, but he immediately says afterward, "although people are annihilated as the result." Since he says this, I think the "live forever" line is what will happen to Kaworu after he starts 3I. The "people annihilated" line shows what happens to the people of Earth when 3I hits.

Because Kaworu is a wishy-washy little bitch who wasn't actually 100% sure how he wanted things to end up. After the other possibilities he'd been considering were conveniently eliminated, he just dove straight into dramatic improvisation, with the result that none of what he says makes any real sense, but it makes him "look pretty damn good".


Is the following what you said in a nutshell?: It makes him look like a "pussy-footer coward who gets to be looked upon as a Jesus Christ figure when, in reality hes more of a Judas Iscariot figure." In fact, I'm certain he just died so he could get into one of those TOP 10 ANIME DEATH LISTS. :toothy:

Kaworu believed (correctly or not) that his continued existence would be at our expense, and hence his death was for the benefit of humanity's future. Therefore, having Shinji kill him was a sort of weird symbolic way of putting the future in Shinji's hands. I guess.


I think it fits in with Kaworu's line of reasoning about what his destiny is. He is an Angel and he cannot live, so Shinji, being an Eva pilot, must kill him. Thats how he sees it. He didn't see that maybe he could have lived. Mistao's comment about his believe in a false hope could be a reference to this. After all, Kaworu could have tried to communicate with NERV and help himself and the world. Suddenly, the parallels to Judas are becoming more and more clearer.

Sailor Star Dust
Kept you waiting, huh?
Kept you waiting, huh?
User avatar
Age: 34
Posts: 22917
Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Location: Living in Houston, TX
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Sailor Star Dust » Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:04 am

Where the heck would they "mention" it?


"By the way, Shinji-kun, I don't really HAVE to die. I just think I should because I'm an enemy to you Lilin and don't see the point in living for myself if my future's already set in stone and I mistakenly believe it's too late for me to change if I betrayed my children and caused Second Impact." (Or at least he says something about that in the game when Shinji talks to him, and I've read on a post that had Shin-Seiki as sauce that Anno actually helped write out that "Shinji has the option to save Kaworu" sequence.)
~Take care of yourself, I need you~

TheAyanamiOtaku
Test Subject
Test Subject
User avatar
Posts: 2781
Joined: May 08, 2007
Location: Fran Sancisco

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby TheAyanamiOtaku » Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:24 am

Now Adam saying "Just kidding, lets fight!" might achieve stranger results...

Reichu wrote:He says "I'm destined to live forever", for whatever that's worth.


That might mean that his soul is "unkillable", which could explain how Lilith and Adam were captured in Lilim bodies...but of course, it could mean something else
Rei: I'm not your puppet.

The Allied States of Syraneen

V
Banned
User avatar
Posts: 2000
Joined: Feb 14, 2007
Location: @the end of the universe

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby V » Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:07 am

it is IMPOSSIBLE for Angels to co-exist with humans, sadly, so he had to kill himself sooner or later; and they might have stopped Shinji from trying to kill him later. It was his chance.
Who is "Codename V"?....
I'm pleased to meet you and I hope you guessed my name, but what's puzzling you, is the nature of my game...so catch me if you can!! (0:50)
"Superior ability breeds superior ambition" -- Spock, Star Trek TOS episode 1.24 "Space Seed"
You say you say you want a REvolution?...
-->It was only after I lost everything, that I realized: I was free to do anything...

Synapsid
Pilot
Pilot
User avatar
Posts: 2143
Joined: Aug 05, 2008
Location: NERV Baths

Re: 2 Questions about Kaworu

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Synapsid » Sun Dec 28, 2008 1:08 pm

Reichu wrote:
2. If he was against killing humanity, why did he choose to die? Why didn't he try to help take down Seele?

Because Kaworu is a wishy-washy little bitch who wasn't actually 100% sure how he wanted things to end up. After the other possibilities he'd been considering were conveniently eliminated, he just dove straight into dramatic improvisation, with the result that none of what he says makes any real sense, but it makes him "look pretty damn good".

That's probably the best interpretation I've read in a while: It certainly explains the bonus scenes in renewal, along with Kaworu's ambiguous actions. I suppose this explains why some of his actions seemed unplanned (forcing Shinji into such a difficult in 24 position), It makes makes kaworu very human (mentally/emotionally at least.)

"By the way, Shinji-kun, I don't really HAVE to die. I just think I should because I'm an enemy to you Lilin and don't see the point in living for myself if my future's already set in stone and I mistakenly believe it's too late for me to change if I betrayed my children and caused Second Impact." (Or at least he says something about that in the game when Shinji talks to him, and I've read on a post that had Shin-Seiki as sauce that Anno actually helped write out that "Shinji has the option to save Kaworu" sequence.)
Perhaps we'll see some of that in Webuild?
It's a trap!|Saigo no shisha seitenkan
Genderbending is an important part of any fandom and must be taken very seriously. ZapalacX
If you ever say that name again, I will hunt you down and neuter you with a spork. Sailor Star Dust *cue Shinji's bloodcurling girly scream* LiLi
leave my innocent Shinjiko thread alone! Reichu Asuka would be the one going "SURPRISE BUTTSEKS, BAKA!!!!" while of course in appropriate dress and, *cough, gulp, snort*, with a certain strapped on accessory THE Hal E. Burton 9000

The Goose
Matarael
Matarael
Posts: 570
Joined: Dec 03, 2006
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby The Goose » Sun Dec 28, 2008 1:43 pm

V wrote:it is IMPOSSIBLE for Angels to co-exist with humans, sadly, so he had to kill himself sooner or later; and they might have stopped Shinji from trying to kill him later. It was his chance.


True, the Angels before Kaworu were too dangerous to be left alive, but Kaworu was different. He had free will and he could communicate between humans. Though, as one person said, NERV wouldn't have left Kaworu live if Shinji hadn't killed him. Still, if NERV tried to to, at least, perhaps communicate and talk with Kaworu, things may have been different. However, NERV and Seele most likely wouldn't have done that anyway since they needed control of 3I.

Count A'ight
Banned
User avatar
Posts: 212
Joined: Nov 15, 2008

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Count A'ight » Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:20 am

I suspect that his "smile of betrayal" (to quote Reichu) toward Rei might play a part in answering these questions. He might have made a backdoor pact with Rei...

(warning: fanwank ahead)

By the end of episode 24, Rei has basically figured out what she is and what she can do. From there, it wasn't too hard for her to figure out what Kaworu was, and what he planned to do. She did not like the idea of humanity being annihilated, but knew that Kaworu did not know this. So she tricked Kaworu by telling him that SEELE did not want him to merge with Adam, and was sending him on a suicide mission. She promised to tell Kaworu the "real" location of Adam on the condition that she be allowed to participate in, and thereby survive, Third Impact. When Kaworu reaches Lilith and realizes that Rei betrayed him, he gets revenge with a betrayal of his own. He's going to use her affinity for humanity against her by psychologically screwing-up the person she cares most about: Shinji.

This is not out of character for Rei. She did betray Gendo, after all...

(/wank)
If I'm pissing you off, just remember: it was Magami No ER who told me about this place, so blame him/her.

BobBQ
Dyskolos
Dyskolos
User avatar
Posts: 4475
Joined: Jul 21, 2006
Location: Mother Base, Mitakihara Waters
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby BobBQ » Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:16 am

V wrote:it is IMPOSSIBLE for Angels to co-exist with humans

Prove it.

V
Banned
User avatar
Posts: 2000
Joined: Feb 14, 2007
Location: @the end of the universe

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby V » Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:56 am

...Misato said it was impossible after reading Nerv's secret files.
Who is "Codename V"?....
I'm pleased to meet you and I hope you guessed my name, but what's puzzling you, is the nature of my game...so catch me if you can!! (0:50)
"Superior ability breeds superior ambition" -- Spock, Star Trek TOS episode 1.24 "Space Seed"
You say you say you want a REvolution?...
-->It was only after I lost everything, that I realized: I was free to do anything...

Ornette
Administrator
Administrator
User avatar
Age: 45
Posts: 11806
Joined: Dec 26, 2005
Location: Pittsburgh/New York City
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Ornette » Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:34 pm

V wrote:...Misato said it was impossible after reading Nerv's secret files.

Sort of:
Episode 25' BB's translation wrote:Shinji, we humans were born from a being called Lilith, who is a source of life just like Adam. We are the 18th Angel.

(flashed image: DNA)

The other Angels are possibilities of what we might have become - humans that gave up human form.

(flashed image: Kaworu - Rei)

Sadly, we had to reject each other - even though we're all human...
Listen, Shinji... You must destroy all of the Eva series. It's the only
way to stay alive.

AuraTwilight
Evangelion
Evangelion
User avatar
Posts: 3317
Joined: Mar 16, 2008
Location: Za Warudo

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby AuraTwilight » Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:30 pm

Count A'ight wrote:I suspect that his "smile of betrayal" (to quote Reichu) toward Rei might play a part in answering these questions. He might have made a backdoor pact with Rei...

(warning: fanwank ahead)

By the end of episode 24, Rei has basically figured out what she is and what she can do. From there, it wasn't too hard for her to figure out what Kaworu was, and what he planned to do. She did not like the idea of humanity being annihilated, but knew that Kaworu did not know this. So she tricked Kaworu by telling him that SEELE did not want him to merge with Adam, and was sending him on a suicide mission. She promised to tell Kaworu the "real" location of Adam on the condition that she be allowed to participate in, and thereby survive, Third Impact. When Kaworu reaches Lilith and realizes that Rei betrayed him, he gets revenge with a betrayal of his own. He's going to use her affinity for humanity against her by psychologically screwing-up the person she cares most about: Shinji.

This is not out of character for Rei. She did betray Gendo, after all...

(/wank)


Holy shit, that's even more awesome than Gendo Kaworu and Duel of the Seeds combined.

Sailor Star Dust
Kept you waiting, huh?
Kept you waiting, huh?
User avatar
Age: 34
Posts: 22917
Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Location: Living in Houston, TX
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Sailor Star Dust » Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:38 pm

Interesting fanwank Count, but as far as the audience knows, Rei and Kaworu only have one dialogue exchange in episode 24' when they meet.
~Take care of yourself, I need you~

Count A'ight
Banned
User avatar
Posts: 212
Joined: Nov 15, 2008

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Count A'ight » Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:43 pm

Only one spoken exchange. Let's not forget that they have TEH ANGEL TELEPATHY.
If I'm pissing you off, just remember: it was Magami No ER who told me about this place, so blame him/her.

The Goose
Matarael
Matarael
Posts: 570
Joined: Dec 03, 2006
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby The Goose » Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:42 pm

Count A'ight wrote:Only one spoken exchange. Let's not forget that they have TEH ANGEL TELEPATHY.


True, but I suppose that if they did have a exchange telepathy-wise, it wasn't very important.

master_lloyd
Lilin
Lilin
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 1304
Joined: Feb 23, 2008
Location: UK
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby master_lloyd » Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:59 am

The Goose wrote:True, but I suppose that if they did have a exchange telepathy-wise, it wasn't very important.


"Crap weather recently"

"See last night's game?"

"That Shinji dudes hot"

That sort of thing?
Neon Genesis Evangelion (from the Greek Ευανγελιον, meaning "Gigantic robots piloted by mentally ill children")
Eva Facts:
-Gendo's final silenced line to Ritsuko was "I'm going to shoot you now."
-Nagisa Kaworu kills a kitten every time you masturbate.
-Kaji's first and last name was Kaji


Return to “Evangelion Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest