Instrumentality: Yay or Nay? Also: speculation/consequences.

[Lavinius]

It is when the alternatives involve death of self. Human beings are programmed to want to live, so chosing paths that lead to non-existence is irrational by definition.

No, that's confusing what we want with what we should want. Any idea of what we should want is unreachable by rational means.

[CJD]

It can't really be both dude. It might be simple, but to be simplistic it'd have to be dumbed down somehow such that it was no longer really accurate. But that isn't the case here -- Instrumentality is literally compared to suicide, so calling it simplistic amounts to saying the show's staff don't understand their own ideas.

Simplistic doesn't necessarily mean inaccurate, it can mean misleading. Even you admit there's more to instrumentality than just death, correct? So comparing it to suicide is therefore a simplification of instrumentality. Even if we accept death of consciousness than it's still a simplification to say that instrumentality is suicide, or rather the mass death of the human race. They're not the same thing, even if they are similar in some ways.

Anyway, though, I imagine the answer to the question is highly dependent on what someone thinks instrumentality exactly entails, and I'm not fond of the belief that it is a death of consciousness, personally. Individuality and consciousness are not the same thing.

"You" cease to exist much more so in instrumentality. That's the point.

But see, you highlighted the important part, you. You ceases to exist, and instead it becomes we, which is the single entity that is GNR. But that doesn't mean your existence ceases.

Do you want to live forever in essential nothingness or live your life as you?

Why nothingness? Why not everything? When everyone is one and one is everyone, nothingness and everything are the same thing. It's the merger of consciousnesses, it's when I become you and you become me, and we both become everyone. It's eternity.

We're not just killing ourselves to serve as base materials to compose the god, we are the god, each of us at the same time. What that would feel like, what that would be like, is beyond comprehension, but I can only imagine it'd be the most eternally blissful feeling in existence. To be everyone, to know everything (that everyone knows), for the barriers of individuality and limited understanding of others that cause all of our pain to be gone, for pain to be nonexistent... truly that must be the greatest experience imaginable. Eternal bliss, that is all I can think for it.

So you'd rather lose your individuality now and become a part of a god controlled by a bunch of loons than lose it to death after living a full life? Makes no sense to me, but to each their own.

Wait hold up, are we going with what we got in EoE or what Seele originally intended? Because Seele's plan was much more nefarious.

[Lavinius]

Why nothingness? Why not everything? When everyone is one and one is everyone, nothingness and everything are the same thing. It's the merger of consciousnesses, it's when I become you and you become me, and we both become everyone. It's eternity.

We're not just killing ourselves to serve as base materials to compose the god, we are the god, each of us at the same time. What that would feel like, what that would be like, is beyond comprehension, but I can only imagine it'd be the most eternally blissful feeling in existence. To be everyone, to know everything (that everyone knows), for the barriers of individuality and limited understanding of others that cause all of our pain to be gone, for pain to be nonexistent... truly that must be the greatest experience imaginable.

Anta baka?

And so you die. The mind lives on conflict.

[Bagheera]

Simplistic doesn't necessarily mean inaccurate, it can mean misleading. Even you admit there's more to instrumentality than just death, correct? So comparing it to suicide is therefore a simplification of instrumentality. Even if we accept death of consciousness than it's still a simplification to say that instrumentality is suicide, or rather the mass death of the human race. They're not the same thing, even if they are similar in some ways.

The best you can manage there is to say that there's more involved. It's still suicide, but that suicide is just part of something more involved. And that's fine and all, but on an individual level choosing that route amounts to the same thing.

So no, it's not simplistic at all. Yes, there's a lot more going on, but your'e still choosing to die, full stop.

Anyway, though, I imagine the answer to the question is highly dependent on what someone thinks instrumentality exactly entails, and I'm not fond of the belief that it is a death of consciousness, personally.

Except it explicitly does. The script tells us flat out that identity goes away, and consciousness cannot meaningfully exist without some way to separate self from non-self.

We're not just killing ourselves to serve as base materials to compose the god, we are the god, each of us at the same time. What that would feel like, what that would be like, is beyond comprehension, but I can only imagine it'd be the most eternally blissful feeling in existence. To be everyone, to know everything (that everyone knows), for the barriers of individuality and limited understanding of others that cause all of our pain to be gone, for pain to be nonexistent... truly that must be the greatest experience imaginable.

Talk to your cells and see how they feel about the matter. You already are that collective being! All you get by mashing all of humanity together into a single [s]robot[/s] cyborg is one dude wandering around the universe with nothing to do with itself. Except, well, all of humanity dies to create that being, and all they get out of it is the same thing they had before -- a singular being who's bored out of its mind.

The nice thing about the Other is that you have someone to talk to.

Wait hold up, are we going with what we got in EoE or what Seele originally intended? Because Seele's plan was much more nefarious.

Seele's plan was the one that aimed at creating a deity sort. What we got in EoE is a bunch of disembodied beings with no sense of self sitting there in the water. It's actually worse than Seele's plan because instead of a being with nothing to do they're an ocean with nothing it can do.

[CJD]

consciousness cannot meaningfully exist without some way to separate self from non-self.

I don't think that's the case.

Talk to your cells and see how they feel about the matter.

My cells lack souls, they aren't capable of any level of consciousness comparable to what we have. That's like telling me to ask grass what it thinks of individuality.

Edit: In case it wasn't obvious, I said "souls" instead of "brains" because consciousness is apparently tied to the soul in the Evaverse. I'm not trying to say "souls" are responsible for our consciousness.

All you get by mashing all of humanity together into a single robot cyborg is one dude wandering around the universe with nothing to do with itself. Except, well, all of humanity dies to create that being, and all they get out of it is the same thing they had before -- a singular being who's bored out its mind.

The nice thing about the Other is that you have someone to talk to.

I highly suspect that level of near omnipotence is incapable of boredom. When you reach godhood, such trivial mortal concepts don't apply.

Regarding Seele, according to the wiki, and correct me if it's wrong because this is what I've been under the assumption was their plan for a while now, Seele's plan involves them being the God and everyone else being told to fuck off and die. If the choice is between this hellhole we call existence and exclusive godhood for a bunch of pretentious old men playing at running the world, I'll take the existential nightmare known as individuality instead. As inspiring as the concept of being the base material in a god is, I'm not about to commit the moral crime of forcing that on the entire human population just so a few old men can be god. If I'm committing that crime I damn well want something for us out of it.

Edit: And I want to point out that, while it's easy to focus on how the decision between instrumentality or individuality would affect us, when saying "I'd take instrumentality," like I have, one needs to remember that yes, they are forcing that on the entire human population. The decision doesn't just affect you, it affects everyone, so take that into account. Are you willing to commit such a crime for whatever you think instrumentality is?

Exclusions go to Nemz, I suppose, who seems to view it as the lesser of two evils anyway.

[Jomei]

Why nothingness? Why not everything? When everyone is one and one is everyone, nothingness and everything are the same thing. It's the merger of consciousnesses, it's when I become you and you become me, and we both become everyone. It's eternity.

One of the running themes in Eva and a fairly well-understood element of human psychology is that we can only be ourselves, that is to form an identity, by differentiation from others. Without others, we cannot form identity or meaning--as meaning comes from these same semiological systems of difference. Instrumentality leads to "everything" AND "nothing" because, if everything is one, then it's all a meaningless blob.

It's like when Shinji is floating around in white-ness. He needs a limitation to do or think anything. He needs something different from himself to relate to, otherwise there's nothing.

I don't think that's the case.

Oh but it is. We think in language, and language only exists within a system of difference.

And of course there's the famous Descartes idea: I think. Therefore, I am. But to get the "I," you have to conceptualize self as different from other. There has to be an I to begin to think.

[Blue Monday]

But with the power of a god you should be able to do anything...

That's reading far too literally into the "god" aspect. When you cut to the core of it, the whole thing is just a FAR ritual.

As it's already been pointed out:

...the option was ATFs or no ATFs, individuality or collective state. That's it.

[CJD]

One of the running themes in Eva and a fairly well-understood element of human psychology is that we can only be ourselves, that is to form an identity, by differentiation from others. Without others, we cannot form identity or meaning--as meaning comes from these same semiological systems of difference. Instrumentality leads to "everything" AND "nothing" because, if everything is one, then it's all a meaningless blob.

See, it's easy to say it's meaningless because of the lack of other, but that doesn't actually make it meaningless. Meaning, in this sense, is subjective, and I don't think that's meaningless. In fact I think it's impossible for us to conceptualize it because it's so out of our bounds, any attempt at trying would be like a rat trying to understand quantum physics. But it's not "meaningless."

It's like when Shinji is floating around in white-ness. He needs a limitation to do or think anything. He needs something different from himself to relate to, otherwise there's nothing.

I'm not sure which scene you're referring to, the only one that comes to mind is the "sea of lcl" where Rei is partially merged with him. In that instance there isn't nothing, even if we remove Rei there's still not nothing.

And of course there's the famous Descartes idea: I think. Therefore, I am. But to get the "I," you have to conceptualize self as different from other. There has to be an I to begin to think.

And yet Descartes lived in a world of individuality. It's not "I think therefore I am." it's "I think therefore I am." As long as consciousness is maintained in some form you will exist. An inability to differentiate yourself from the other couple billion people in the sea won't erase you, instead the entire concept of "you" will be abolished. It will no longer be "I" "me" "you" "them" "they" "him" her" it will just be "We." 6.9 billion "We"'s all referring to the same existence will simultaneously experience every memory and thought known by every person on Earth, unrestrained by the biological constructs that withhold our consciousness from perceiving and maintaining every piece of information. "I think therefore I am." will become "We think therefore we are."

As for differentiation, it will still exist: There will be "us," those that are one, and everything else. The sun and the stars will still exist, "we" will be contained inside GNR, floating through space for eternity, in a world where pain is an impossible concept, just as impossible as instrumentality seems to you or I today. It will be inconceivable, unimaginable. And if pain is beyond our understanding, then surely that must be bliss.

[Bagheera]

See, it's easy to say it's meaningless because of the lack of other, but that doesn't actually make it meaningless. Meaning, in this sense, is subjective, and I don't think that's meaningless. In fact I think it's impossible for us to conceptualize it because it's so out of our bounds, any attempt at trying would be like a rat trying to understand quantum physics. But it's not "meaningless."

I get that you feel that way, but you're not really making an argument as to why it's so. You're just saying "it's not meaningless." But I don't agree -- without an "I" in the equation there's nothing there to know that you're experiencing rapture or whatever, so for the being who used to be you it really is meaningless.

[Jomei]

See, it's easy to say it's meaningless because of the lack of other, but that doesn't actually make it meaningless. Meaning, in this sense, is subjective, and I don't think that's meaningless.

But without an other, there is no self and, thus, no subjectivity. Meaningless.

I'm not sure which scene you're referring to

It's in the last episode of the anime IIRC. He's floating around and can't relate to anything, then the voice-over offers him a line that serves as the ground, so he can walk around etc.

As long as consciousness is maintained in some form you will exist. An inability to differentiate yourself from the other couple billion people in the sea won't erase you, instead the entire concept of "you" will be abolished.

I think that's two different ways of saying the same thing. Your material becomes part of the whole, but there's no longer any "you"--nor anyone else. There cannot be any meaning without individuals--the individual subjectivity you mentioned earlier, which I agree is the source of meaning.

As for differentiation, it will still exist: There will be "us," those that are one, and everything else. The sun and the stars will still exist, "we" will be contained inside GNR, floating through space for eternity, in a world where pain is an impossible concept, just as impossible as instrumentality seems to you or I today. It will be inconceivable, unimaginable. And if pain is beyond our understanding, then surely that must be bliss.

But the problem is everything will be unimaginable. Without subjectivity, the individual consciousness, there's no meaning, thought, perception--nothing. I mean, death is really the same thing. Your materials still exist, going back into the earth, but your consciousness goes away.

[CJD]

I get that you feel that way, but you're not really making an argument as to why it's so. You're just saying "it's not meaningless." But I don't agree -- without an "I" in the equation there's nothing there to know that you're experiencing rapture or whatever, so for the being who used to be you it really is meaningless.

Unfortunately I'm probably a few philosophy classes and books short of being able to talk with you guys about this on a similar level.

I dunno, it just sounds great to me. 'slike, we spend all our lives trying to get close to people, but in the end we'll never truly know anyone but ourselves. No matter how close we get our "AT Fields" will always separate us, ambiguity, and thus pain, will always exist. We're aiming for something that we physically cannot have, and we live in a world that is all too harsh because of it. This is probably why EoE didn't resonate with me as much, I'm still stuck at where Shinji was when he made the call to start instrumentality. His decision to end it just seemed like a misguided sense of loyalty and optimism for individuality. I don't agree with his revelation, so the perspective change that some people report experiencing from EoE didn't hit me.

Anyway, the reason I even brought it up was because when I say "I'd take instrumentality" it's not a genocidal wish on mankind, or a suicidal wish for myself, and I wanted to make that clear (and, admittedly, test the waters to see if anyone felt the same, didn't expect it though). Xard said, to make a point no doubt so I don't hold this against him, that I had a date with a subway train, but suicide wouldn't achieve the same thing, at least not if I'm right.

And if I was wrong and you guys were right? Then yea, I just committed the greatest crime in human history. But that's a risk I'd take, which no doubt is a horrible thing.

[Merkaba]

I'd forgive you, CJD, and actually be jealous that it was you who pulled the proverbial trigger and not me.

[KingXanaduu]

I'd forgive you as well CJD, cause I understand your decision. See, there was a time in my life where I would've chosen the same thing, if the option had presented itself. A time that (in my mind mind you) that life was very painful for me.

But, then I realized that despite the pain, this world isn't so bad. In fact, the pain actually made me stronger and more tolerable of the world, and be able to see all the wonderful things in this ugly, yet beautiful world.

And your not alone CJD, you've got friends and companions who eagerly listen to you and your posts. :)

[Dream]

Man, CJD's noble and intelligent reasons for choosing Instrumentality kind of make me feel bad for knowing that if i were to do it (a likely possibility if given the choice) i would certainly end it, not so much because of ideological reasons but out of pure fucking spite, and at those moments i can't really say i care much for ending the life of all people with my decision.

Also, i think EoTV's instrumentality would mesh better with CJD's arguments than the EoE one.

[CJD]

not so much because of ideological reasons but out of pure fucking spite, and at those moments i can't really say i care much for ending the life of all people with my decision.

Dream, I'm gonna share a little secret with you.

SPOILER: Show

In my darkest moments I, too, want to fuck the world. Many people do. It's easy to hate the world, to blame it for your problems.

What makes us good people is that we know that's not an admirable thought, and that we don't try to fuck the world. Because as recent events have shown, there are far too many people who let those bitter thoughts win out, and that's when a tragedy happens.

[Bagheera]

Also, i think EoTV's instrumentality would mesh better with CJD's arguments than the EoE one.

Well, yes, mainly because that's an entirely different scenario that doesn't require death of self to work. :)

[StratoSakuya...AF]

I'm afraid I can't choose Instrumentality in any scenario even when taking pain and suffering into account. My reasoning extends into a "what now"? situation in which we "become one", but, "what happens after that"? Nothing happens.

It's like sacrificing risks vs success. While we would get rid of the pain, the "good" emotions would be gone as well. We strive for happiness and not to get rid of pain per se. We consider happiness as taking priority over suffering. Instrumentality would eliminate not only pain, but all emotions. A hollow existence that can't virtually reason or experience emotions is no different than something that doesn't exist in the first place.

Similarly, evolution ends there; we progress and improve, meaning things can get better and rules we consider final at this point may no longer be rules later. Between knowing I won't exist anymore and keeping on living to see if, one day, we can eliminate pain without eliminating happiness, I'd rather run a risk for the later. Risk is the reason that pain exists, but also rises above it. Hence "desire is power". When someone wants something, pain or fear don't get in the way; this is the reason why I would've rejected it in any scenario... Because when we can get a positive emotion, we can dispel any doubt and suffering from ourselves.

Meaning that in life, pain is less valuable than happiness and getting happiness surpasses all value and worth in pain... Shortening this story; we don't care as much for pain so long as we get happiness, so between having one of lesser evil and one of immense lust and having none at all, the latter is a loss.

Would you rather work hard for riches or work nothing and starve?

[MAGI_01]

I could not bring myself to choose Seele's scenario.

I guess I have Shinji's mentality that despite life being cold, painful and extremely hard to get to grips with that there is always something to live for despite all of the suffering. Plus I could not bring myself to willfully choose the fate of the entire human race. From my understanding Shinji's choice left the choice ultimately up to each individual to choose for themselves what they wanted in the end instead of forcing it either way.

[Dream]

Dream, I'm gonna share a little secret with you.

SPOILER: Show

In my darkest moments I, too, want to fuck the world. Many people do. It's easy to hate the world, to blame it for your problems.

What makes us good people is that we know that's not an admirable thought, and that we don't try to fuck the world. Because as recent events have shown, there are far too many people who let those bitter thoughts win out, and that's when a tragedy happens.

I admit, i honestly don't know. On the one hand, it's true that i'm not always desiring to end the world. On the other, i can't really say i care much for humanity or feel any love towards it -it's hard to have love for something that has done nothing good for you and let you down so many times- and i don't really consider myself a part of the world anymore. I feel it's similar to Watchmen's Dr. Manhattan "Yeah, i could easily return to earth and solve all those problems, but why should i bother with a world i have no stake in anymore?" While i don't try to fuck the world, i don't try protecting/doing any good for it or would particularly care if someone were to decide to end it all well, not so sure about the latter.

Also, outside most bitter moments i don't hate the world, and i never blame it for my problems. Like i said i consider myself something completely separate from the "world"

From my understanding Shinji's choice left the choice ultimately up to each individual to choose for themselves what they wanted in the end instead of forcing it either way.

Well, he ended Instrumentality so in that sense he did kind of force a decision, at least for the people who were ok with Instrumentality, but yeah Shinji's choice is certainly admirable.

[Ringworm128]

If I went with SEELE I wouldn't be me anymore, and I love being me. I also like learning from mistakes and bad experiences as well as talking with people.