Instrumentality: Yay or Nay? Also: speculation/consequences.

[riffraff11235]

"The Gods will not do for us what we can do for ourselves."

Reminds me of something the Greek philosopher Epicurus said:

"It is folly for a man to pray to the gods for that which he has the power to obtain himself."

[pwhodges]

Shinji's choice only makes sense when you don't fully understand what you're choosing between, and instead base it on some vague wish to just make all the bad things go away.

But Shinji's choice was to keep the bad things, the pain and such that makes us aware of ourselves.

[Dream]

None; With the power he was given, Shinji could've chosen to abolish instrumentality. However, he could've used the power to change the world into a better place for everyone and himself without losing individuality. Instead of merging everyone into a single being, all he had to do was to create unbreakable bonds between people that would allow them to become independent of each other while still having each other to rely upon.

What? Who told you he could do that? Shinji was given power of choice over Instrumentality, but neither he nor Lilith can really alter humanity or reality.

Also, to elaborate on what Xanderkh said, NGE has very strong themes of reality and fantasy and people's relationship to them, so i think it makes that in the end the protagonist and other characters renounce all the mystical props or help in the series (the Evas among them) to face life on their own.

[Bagheera]

depends entirely on what version of instrumentality we're talking about here, but if my only choice is 'become a cell in the new god' or 'return to a completely fucked world to live out a short, pointless life' I'm taking up Seele's offer. Shinji's choice only makes sense when you don't fully understand what you're choosing between, and instead base it on some vague wish to just make all the bad things go away.

That's exactly what the Seele choice is, though. Shinji's choice is the only one that makes sense once you understand what Seele's choice actually entails. Your scenario above amounts to choosing death over a difficult life.

Honestly, though, the whole instrumentality=suicide analogy is simplistic.

Eh? IIRC it's been explicitly equated to such by the show's staff.

Even if individuality does die, instrumentality is something more than the entire human race putting a bullet through their brains. It's transcendental. Personally I find it sounds quite blissful.

But you won't know it because you don't exist as a person.

None; With the power he was given, Shinji could've chosen to abolish instrumentality. However, he could've used the power to change the world into a better place for everyone and himself without losing individuality. Instead of merging everyone into a single being, all he had to do was to create unbreakable bonds between people that would allow them to become independent of each other while still having each other to rely upon.

No, he couldn't do that. He had the power to make a choice, that's it. Even Lilith didn't have the power you describe; the option was ATFs or no ATFs, individuality or collective state. That's it.

Also, to elaborate on what Xanderkh said, NGE has very strong themes of reality and fantasy and people's relationship to them, so i think it makes that in the end the protagonist and other characters renounce all the mystical props or help in the series (the Evas among them) to face life on their own.

Agreed. This is the point of the whole damn exercise, after all.

[CJD]

Eh? IIRC it's been explicitly equated to such by the show's staff.

Quite possible, though I still think it's simplistic, even if it's accurate.

But you won't know it because you don't exist as a person.

If true then I won't be able to regret it, either.

Edit: Can someone fill me in on how Shinji plays in all this? For the death of individuality both he Rei seem to do a decent job of maintaining theirs, even if we throw concurrency out the window. Though I suppose that's a question better reserved for a dedicated thread in the discussion forum.

Double edit: I also love how Nemz' comment can be read to support both view points, depending on how you interpret it.

[Merkaba]

Seele.

It seems atheists on this forum keep saying that "Death is a bad thing," and yet without Instrumentality, the soul would cease to exist. With Instrumentality, the consciousnesses (souls, whatever you want to label them as) will continue existing forever, as part of a god.

I'd take being part of an immortal god over ceasing to exist any day.

[Bagheera]

Quite possible, though I still think it's simplistic, even if it's accurate.

It can't really be both dude. It might be simple, but to be simplistic it'd have to be dumbed down somehow such that it was no longer really accurate. But that isn't the case here -- Instrumentality is literally compared to suicide, so calling it simplistic amounts to saying the show's staff don't understand their own ideas.

It seems atheists on this forum keep saying that "Death is a bad thing," and yet without Instrumentality, the soul would cease to exist.

Lilith would like a word with you.

[Jomei]

Seele.

It seems atheists on this forum keep saying that "Death is a bad thing," and yet without Instrumentality, the soul would cease to exist. With Instrumentality, the consciousnesses (souls, whatever you want to label them as) will continue existing forever, as part of a god.

I'd take being part of an immortal god over ceasing to exist any day.

In either scenario, "you" cease to exist. The question is not whether to die or not; you'll either die eventually or cease to be within a pool of LCL. The question is whether you will face the world in your life--or seek refuge in something that eliminates "you" but makes all the pain go away (the metaphor for suicide is not all it's about, but that's certainly part of it).

The subtext is important.

[Merkaba]

^ I fully understand the subtext. But like I said, I'd rather become part of a divine being than just cease to exist.

[Bagheera]

^ I fully understand the subtext. But like I said, I'd rather become part of a divine being than just have my soul cease to exist.

Apparently you don't understand, because my point was that souls don't cease to exist in NGE. Lilith, for example, is more than three billion years old, and her soul is very much human. Moreover, the souls used for both the Angels and the Lilim originally came from the FAR, again more than three billion years ago.

Reincarnation might or might not be in play, but souls ceasing to exist is not.

[Jomei]

"You" cease to exist much more so in instrumentality. That's the point.

I guess you have to decide what makes your existence meaningful. Just being there, in whatever form, whether or not you can think or act or differentiate yourself from others or love and hate and create? Do you want to live forever in essential nothingness or live your life as you?

Of course, you're entitled to your opinion. I just think you've overlooked some vital things.

[Lavinius]

Seele.

It seems atheists on this forum keep saying that "Death is a bad thing," and yet without Instrumentality, the soul would cease to exist. With Instrumentality, the consciousnesses (souls, whatever you want to label them as) will continue existing forever, as part of a god.

I'd take being part of an immortal god over ceasing to exist any day.

The soul ceases to exist even in Instrumentality. Absolute happiness is death. And the Omega Point god (which is Lilim redefined) would also cease to exist, to have a defined sum, for he would, like the Epicurean gods, be satisified.

[StratoSakuya...AF]

No, he couldn't do that. He had the power to make a choice, that's it. Even Lilith didn't have the power you describe; the option was ATFs or no ATFs, individuality or collective state. That's it.



Agreed. This is the point of the whole damn exercise, after all.

In that case; He did what he had to do. Instrumentality would've sucked. But with the power of a god you should be able to do anything...

AT-Fields or no AT-Fields; How about weaker AT-Fields?

[Merkaba]

[To Bags]

I love how kind you are. :)

As you'll see before you posted (check the time of the post for reference), I edited my post to remove the part about my soul ceasing. The "I" I'm referring to is my individuality.

As in, if I'm losing my individuality anyway, I might as well merge with a god.

[Bagheera]

As in, if I'm losing my individuality anyway, I might as well merge with a god.

So you'd rather lose your individuality now and become a part of a god controlled by a bunch of loons than lose it to death after living a full life? Makes no sense to me, but to each their own.

[Merkaba]

I wouldn't say that they're loons; in fact, they're just the opposite. They're a brilliant group of occultists who single-handedly molded the world to their desired image (until Shinji fucked it up).

I guess I'd rather lose it now, if this was the one time I'd be able to become part of a god. Compared to eternity, my remaining years are just a flash in the pan anyway.

[Bagheera]

I wouldn't say that they're loons; in fact, they're just the opposite. They're a brilliant group of occultists who single-handedly molded the world to their desired image (until Shinji fucked it up).

What makes you think people can't be brilliant and crazy at the same time?

I guess I'd rather lose it now, if this was the one time I'd be able to become part of a god. Compared to eternity, my remaining years are just a flash in the pan anyway.

Since your soul will last for eternity either way this isn't very rational.

[Lavinius]

Merkaba, the god will be just as dead as you are. Seele is brilliant, but they are also idiots who are so wrapped up in their Kabbalah that they don't bother to reason what it will bring: absolute nonexistence. Even when Gendo tried to tell them such.

[Merkaba]

What makes you think people can't be brilliant and crazy at the same time?



Since your soul will last for eternity either way this isn't very rational.

People can be both. I just don't find Seele to be crazy. I understand their motives, and as an amoralist, have no contention with them.

And it's not quite fair for you to call every idea that conflicts with yours "not very rational." Beside that, what is irrational about seeing both options equal on one level (post-death immortality) and choosing the one with an added perk (being part of something bigger)?

[Bagheera]

And it's not quite fair for you to call every idea that conflicts with yours "not very rational."

It is when the alternatives involve death of self. Human beings are programmed to want to live, so chosing paths that lead to non-existence is irrational by definition.

Beside that, what is irrational about seeing both options equal on one level (post-death immortality) and choosing the one with an added perk (being part of something bigger)?

Because it's not much of a perk, and the alternative offers individual existence in perpetuity (which is a better perk).