Was Gendo ultimately good or ultimately bad?

[CyberXIII]

Hi, OP here.

Well, first I probably shouldn't have been so lazy with my first post.

Let me be frank. I can't stand Gendo Ikari. He's a deadbeat father, and a ruthless old bastard who should have been shot years ago. Actually I take that back. He just needs an asskicking. SEELE needs to be rounded up and shot.

I asked about this in my OP because I've seen two viewpoints on Gendo:a tragic villain vs a tyrannical monster. But let's look at those and the holes in them.

Gendo abandoned his son out of cowardice and the belief that he would wind up hurting Shinji if he stayed. Some would say that was probably the best option at the time. In the short term, sending Shinji away probably was a good idea. Between the clusterfuck surrounding Yui's death and Gehirn's dissolution Gendo probably didn't have time to keep track of a child. Also, where was it stated people blamed Gendo for Yui's death? I know we know better as the audience, but there's no motive for it. Gendo was devoted to his wife right up until she died.

Now, in the long term, cutting all ties with Shinji was the worst thing Gendo could have done. Between the abandonment issues and the laundry list of other psychological baggage Shinji has to deal with it's a wonder he didn't kill anyone yet. And here we see Gendo's greatest crime. Just about all of Shinji's problems at the outset can be traced back to his father. Shinji's no innocent by the end, but everything that happened to him was either caused by or influenced by his dear old dad.

Another sticking point and one that comes up the second most often: the Bardiel fight. Let's look at the original first. Gendo sends out the Evas in arguably the worst possible setup for a 3 on 1 fight: a gauntlet. As Spidey put it when he fought the same set up: that's a "bone-headed method of teaming up". Now Gendo's been in fights before, and he's also incredibly intelligent. Why would he do this? The "doesn't know tactics" explanation falls flat mostly because Gendo's not stupid. Anyone with a brain knows that it's harder to fight multiple opponents at once than one person at a time.

The answer: it's a deliberate setup. Gendo has an opportunity to use the dummy plug, and uses it. Sure, he tries to save Touji, I'll be fair. But I find it suspicious that he was so quick to write off Eva-03 as expendable. Like I said, he gave them the worst possible positions, let Asuka and Rei get beat down and then uses the Dummy System to butcher Bardiel. Those of you who say he had no choice in the matter look at what I just said about the deliberate setup. Worst of all he's got that "I love it when a plan comes together" smirk on his face. The only way he could've been more villainous and evil in that scene would have been if he was laughing about it.

Thoughts?

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Also, where was it stated people blamed Gendo for Yui's death? I know we know better as the audience, but there's no motive for it. Gendo was devoted to his wife right up until she died.

I think it was during Shinji's breakdown in either episode 16 or 20. You saw newspaper headlines flash on the screen, some stating that Gendo killed Yui. It's typical that the spouse would be the first in questioning when it came to the death of the partner. There are very few incidents where investigation doesn't start with the spouse of the murdered/missing.

I agree with most of your other points, but would come to the conclusion that he's, overall, a tragic character. This may cause his to act tyrannically at times, though I don't think being tyrannical is his definitive state. The NGE Bardiel battle, where as it might be his most "evil"/tyrannical thing he's ever done, is also his only example of actually being really nasty about something. Every other time he's just being devious and under-handed about things.

And, yeah. Gendo is not the example of good parenting by any stretch of the imagination. If Gendo was a good father, Shinji wouldn't be so screwed up, and Evangelion wouldn't look or feel the way it does in either the NGE or NME sagas.

[NemZ]

Also, where was it stated people blamed Gendo for Yui's death?

ep21.

Shinji's no innocent by the end, but everything that happened to him was either caused by or influenced by his dear old dad.

He's no innocent at the beginning. At some point people have to grow up and take responsibility for their own lives regardless of what their parents did. If everything wrong with Shinji is Gendo's fault, why can't Gendo blame it all on his parents and so on back to fucking cavemen?

Gendo sends out the Evas in arguably the worst possible setup for a 3 on 1 fight: a gauntlet.

It's hard to say how they were arranged without seeing a larger map view. At one point he does tell Rei that Shinji will be coming to support her, though not soon enough.

[Azathoth]

I think it was during Shinji's breakdown in either episode 16 or 20. You saw newspaper headlines flash on the screen, some stating that Gendo killed Yui. It's typical that the spouse would be the first in questioning when it came to the death of the partner. There are very few incidents where investigation doesn't start with the spouse of the murdered/missing.

What's interesting to me is that there's no further word on how this investigation went. Was Gendou actually given legal blame for Yui's disappearance, either in the "whacked her for the life insurance" or the "should have been paying better attention to your subordinates" sense? Shinji is so very quick to assume that Gendou really did kill his mother that I have to wonder how much this idea is just his natural hatred of the man and how has been fostered in him already.

[CJD]

What's interesting to me is that there's no further word on how this investigation went. Was Gendou actually given legal blame for Yui's disappearance, either in the "whacked her for the life insurance" or the "should have been paying better attention to your subordinates" sense? Shinji is so very quick to assume that Gendou really did kill his mother that I have to wonder how much this idea is just his natural hatred of the man and how has been fostered in him already.

I'd wager Seele got Gendo out of it. If it did progress to court, there's no way Gendo would be convicted with Seele backing him.


I'm just curious, someone refresh my memory, where do we get the sense that Shinji thinks Gendo killed her? Is it just because of the flashing newspapers and that he ran away or what?

[Bagheera]

He's no innocent at the beginning. At some point people have to grow up and take responsibility for their own lives regardless of what their parents did. If everything wrong with Shinji is Gendo's fault, why can't Gendo blame it all on his parents and so on back to fucking cavemen?

The fact that you seriously hold Shinji to a higher standard than Gendo absolutely baffles me. I can understand condemning both of them, and I can understand making excuses for both of them. But making excuses for Gendo while saying Shinji needs to "grow up and take responsibility [for his] own [life]" is just...

I mean, Gendo is adult Shinji. He just takes all of Shinji's moral failings and adds a calculated desire to fuck the world for his own ends to the list. WTF? How does he get a free pass when Shinji doesn't?

[NemZ]

How does he get a free pass when Shinji doesn't?

When did I say he should? I'm not at all saying Gendo is a good guy, just that he's not a monster.

[Bagheera]

When did I say he should? I'm not at all saying Gendo is a good guy, just that he's not a monster.

You've been making an awful lot of excuses for the guy, up to and including blaming 4-year-old Shinji for his own abandonment. That's a free pass if anything is.

[NemZ]

I didn't say it was Shinji's fault, I said that Gendo may well have (irrationally) based his decision on it.

I tend to defend Gendo because people go too far in attacking him.

[Trajan]

Just my $0.02

Gendo isn't evil, but I still wouldn't call him a tragic villain. He's manipulative, callous, ruthless, and obsessed with his wife in a very unhealthy way. But he's facing off against an organization that is much, much worse than he is. He is in every sense of the phrase 'the lesser of two evils' in regards to the rivalry between him and Seele. In addition to that, I can understand why he turned out the way he did and why he made some of the decisions that he did.

I sympathize with him, but I cannot condone his actions.

[CyberXIII]

@FreakyFilmfan4ever

The Bardiel fight wasn't the worst thing he's done. The worst thing he's done is a tossup between what he did to Shinji, what he did to Rei, or what he did in EoE to the entire human race. He had help from a lot of sources but he was the one that instigated Third Impact.

@NemZ
Horseshit. Shinji was nothing but an innocent screwed-up fourteen year old from day one. What happened later was partially his fault, yes. The Bardiel thing probably could've been handled better on all sides. But he was not to blame in the first episode for anything.

Also, another point I'd like to make. There is a difference between having a sympathetic backstory and being a sympathetic character. To use an different example, Asuka is the latter. Despite being a raging bitch, she's never really hurt anyone and really only wants to be treated like an adult. Shinji's the same way. He's got issues, but he's never hurt anyone not named Kaworu, and he only did that because he had no real choice. Plus, Kaworu wanted nothing more than to die.

Gendo has a sympathetic backstory, as anyone who has lost loved ones will tell you. However, he stops being sympathetic when he uses that as an excuse for just about all his crimes. He doesn't give a shit about anyone but Yui, not even himself, and expresses that in the worst way possible.

[Azathoth]

I'm just curious, someone refresh my memory, where do we get the sense that Shinji thinks Gendo killed her? Is it just because of the flashing newspapers and that he ran away or what?

At some point (during ep20, maybe?) he explicitly says so

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

The worst thing he's done is a tossup between what he did to Shinji, what he did to Rei, or what he did in EoE to the entire human race.

He didn't do anything to the human race during Third Impact. Rei did all of that Third Impact stuff for Shinji, and Gendo became a victim of Rei's version of Third Impact. The series never suggests what Gendo's Third Impact would be like for the rest of the human race. It only states that Gendo would be able to see Yui again. (Not that I'm gonna speculate that Gendo's Third Impact would be all roses and sunshine for everyone else. But we really can't go on and say how terrible it would have been if we don't know how it would have been at all.)

[CJD]

At some point (during ep20, maybe?) he explicitly says so

Ah, you're right. At approximately 9:23 he says it, thanks.

[CyberXIII]

He didn't do anything to the human race during Third Impact. Rei did all of that Third Impact stuff for Shinji, and Gendo became a victim of Rei's version of Third Impact. The series never suggests what Gendo's Third Impact would be like for the rest of the human race. It only states that Gendo would be able to see Yui again. (Not that I'm gonna speculate that Gendo's Third Impact would be all roses and sunshine for everyone else. But we really can't go on and say how terrible it would have been if we don't know how it would have been at all.)

Right...

I would like to point out that Rei III was nearly powerless until Gendo shoved his hand into her uterus and implanted the Adam embryo.

[CJD]

Right...

I would like to point out that Rei III was nearly powerless until Gendo shoved his hand into her uterus and implanted the Adam embryo.

At which point she takes the burden of responsibility. She could have just as simply not reunited with Lilith, though it would mean that Seele's version of 3I would likely happen. The point is, between her taking Adam and Shinji's "Everyone should die", everything falls on her. Hell, some people even think the blame falls on her after Shinji's line, though I don't follow that opinion.

[Bagheera]

At which point she takes the burden of responsibility. She could have just as simply not reunited with Lilith, though it would mean that Seele's version of 3I would likely happen. The point is, between her taking Adam and Shinji's "Everyone should die", everything falls on her. Hell, some people even think the blame falls on her after Shinji's line, though I don't follow that opinion.

It kind of has to. After all, she could have said "no".

[CJD]

It kind of has to. After all, she could have said "no".

I was merely making a point, I'm not going to get into that in this thread and go off topic again.

[Reichu]

I posted the transcript from episode 16 earlier in the thread. The case over Yui's murder went all the way to the Japanese supreme court before Gendo was declared not guilty.

Here.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

I would like to point out that Rei III was nearly powerless until Gendo shoved his hand into her uterus and implanted the Adam embryo.

You act as if that's inherently a bad thing.

Seriously though, Rei stole that hand from Gendo. Heck, she could have eaten it off if she really wanted to. (It wouldn't be the first time something Yui-related started eating weird things.) And up until she did that, nothing was happening. Third Impact hadn't reached a world-wide scale, no one was turning to goo, Asuka was still fighting her own battles and failing... things were pretty normal, outside of the fact that Gendo's hand was intruding upon in Rei's uncomfortable places.

In fact, it would make sense that Gendo's version of Third Impact would make sure a Giant White Rei never saw the light of day, especially if he was trying to keep SEELE's from interfering with his plans through their Mass Produced Evas. Third Impact might still have effects the rest of the world, but since Rei wasn't going anywhere, there's no direct cause to believe this.

It wasn't until Rei was putting things where Gendo didn't intend to have her putting things when Third Impact went world wide, Rei, who's now huge, white, and infused with Lilith, went outside to meet Shinji, and the Mass Produced Evas got their teeth all over her wings. That's when things got screwed up for everyone, and mainly because she was trying to make Shinji happy, who was in no state to make any decisions at the time.