Was Kaji misinformed, or...?

[Xard]

Errr, they had been collecting data all along, you know.

They never captured living angel

The "unexpected events" start from 2I which even Seele refer to as a massive mistake. They knew their destination, but they had no idea how to get there. Gendo was one step ahead of Seele, and Yui was one step ahead of both.

Second Impact was mistake, yes. Albeit this is somewhat contradicted by ep 21 (which is propably just because Anno changed his mind).

Throughout the series SEELE and Gendo discuss unexpected developments (such as the angel attack in ep 13 that wasn't predicted by SDSS) and compare their effect on the project and do they endanger the plan. If they didn't have carefully laid down plan from the start these scenes would stop making any sense - it would also make their grand panic at developments against their keikaku dooris in ep 19 and ep 22 nonsensical. Also from ep 24 they sent Kaworu to NERV in order to "hasten the schedule", implying they had clear schedule for the project.

Your "they had no idea how to get there" (LOLWUT) had no support from show itself or extra material.

No such flaws exist in 2001. It's perfect to the point of being distancing, almost (I've said before I'll take flawed, human works over perfect ones if the former are good enough).

I'd truly like to know how you'd even manage to start calling 2001 perfect. It even has bloobers!

You can account for some with either reasoning (developing established/coincidences), but not all of them. If they had no idea where they were going they would have had to constantly keep their mind on the "big picture" rather than having time to focus on such minor details, and there are a ridiculous number of minor details throughout the entire series, far, far too many for them all to be coincidences.

I'm not saying they're coincidences in general (examples cited by Shin-Seiki however clearly were), I'm saying they made the shit up as they go along and in retrospect give again and again illusion of grand master plan because somehow Anno's method works for him.

Read what I wrote above how "fuckup" would typically be the Occam's Razor default, but given the misdirection nature of the series I don't think such a default exists. The drafts might lend credence to "fuckup" theory (I'm not entirely sure exactly what you're referring to, though).

I guess you mean this:

Normally, Occam's razor would reign in these cases and the "they made a mistake" would be given the benefit. The problem here is that the bait-and-switch is actually something Anno and co. do consistently with other elements throughout the series, setting things up to be one thing and then revealing it's completely different. So I don't think in this case that we should just assume that those lines would be more likely to be referring to the giant as opposed to wanting the audience to think that's what they're referring to.

I don't see how this helps the case at all. Anno baits audience a lot in NGE but rarely in long term.

[Six Winged Angel]

Shot of Kaworu at the opening reveals that they had at least planned the basic structure of the script like "what will happen if this action happens". The making-shit-up-along-the-way thing mostly refers to determining "these' actions that play part of the plot (such as, "will kaworu destroy humanity, or will he get his ass wooped?). Like a well-played jaming which I consider the finest form of music art.

[Xard]

Shot of Kaworu at the opening reveals that they had at least planned the basic structure of the script like "what will happen if this action happens". The making-shit-up-along-the-way thing mostly refers to determining "these' actions that play part of the plot (such as, "will kaworu destroy humanity, or will he get his ass wooped?). Like a well-played jaming which I consider the finest form of music art.

Uhh, that's what I think about NGE.

[Eva Yojimbo]

They never captured living angel

Errrr, why do you think they wanted to?

Second Impact was mistake, yes. Albeit this is somewhat contradicted by ep 21 (which is propably just because Anno changed his mind)... If they didn't have carefully laid down plan from the start these scenes would stop making any sense

I think there's a miscommunication since I wasn't just taking the in-series stuff into account, but the clear lack of knowing what they were doing going as far back as 2I. It was only after Gendo proposed the HIP that they had a clearly defined plan. But even with that, a lot of it was improvised because of how events unfolded.

I'd truly like to know how you'd even manage to start calling 2001 perfect.

It contains everything the artist intended and nothing they didn't and managed to provoke the kind of reaction Kubrick attended in as large a portion of the audience as possible while also being a revolutionary landmark in its medium on a variety of levels. Any charges of it not being perfect have to resort to arbitrary standards. Works like NGE, Hamlet, War & Peace, and many other masterpieces don't do that, and are almost antithetical to such standards even on the levels they do work on.

I'm saying they made the shit up as they go along and in retrospect give again and again illusion of grand master plan because somehow Anno's method works for him.

If you're constantly making shit up then such intricate patterns don't/can't emerge over the whole.

I don't see how this helps the case at all. Anno baits audience a lot in NGE but rarely in long term.

"Rarely in long term"? Oh, really? Waiting 16 episodes to get directly to many of the series' themes isn't "long term"? Waiting until ep. 23 to reveal Rei's origins isn't "long term"? Waiting for EoE to reveal the connection between Angels and Humans isn't "long term"?

Uhh, that's what I think about NGE.

Then your definition of "making shit up" is basically anything that doesn't fall under the "we didn't have every detail planned beforehand"? Really? I guess all fiction falls under the "made shit up as they went along" label, then.

Like a well-played jaming which I consider the finest form of music art.

Yes. I've often said NGE is more like improvised jazz than carefully composed classical.

[Allemann]

I've often said NGE is more like improvised jazz than carefully composed classical.

If Evangelion is like jazz, then it's an improvisational mess.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

I thought the question at hand was "Was Kaji misinformed?" At least that was the thread I clicked on. I've no idea where "Anno's making it all up as he goes lol" came from. We should just look at the series in it's current form and answer whether or not Kaji was misinformed, regardless of whether or not Anno knew was he was doing. A.K.A., Let's look at the art in question rather than awkwardly gawking at the artist.

1) It's clear to Gendo and Fuyutski from the absolute very beginning of episode 1 that the angels are NOT after Adam. Adam doesn't reach Tokyo 3 until the end of episode 8, and we have angel/eva battles with Sachiel, Shamshel, and Ramiel, all going down at or around Tokyo 3 before Adam is even introduced into the series. So the Angels are intentionlally going after Lillith rather than Adam. The only angel who can be said for sure was going after Adam was Gaghiel when he attacked the boat that Adam was on in episode 8. Kaji was the one who personally brought Adam to Tokyo 3 and he even heard of Shinji magnificent battle with Sachiel. He even mentions it to both Shinji and Asuka. So he knows that those angel/eva battle in Tokyo 3 could not have been over Adam.
Round one goes to Gendo, Fuyutski, and Kaji knowing where Adam is all along at this point while everyone else was totally misinformed.

2) Gendo and Fuyutski know that Adam needs to be placed inside Gendo's hand. We don't see Adam in Gendo's hand until the last couple of episodes of the series. Adam needs to be taken out of that containment device and placed into Gando's hand. But it appears as if the containment device is used to preserve Adam in a state of suspended animation, keeping it alive without him growing. Something needs to be done to Adam to keep him from either dying or growing outside of that containment device. This is probably going on during episode 13, when the angel Iruel attacks the Geo-Front. Adam's in the basement somewhere, and it would be better if the Geo-Front was sacrificed to keep Adam away from the angel. And when Gendo and Fuyutski do speak of Adam, it;s very similar as to how Gendo speaks of Rei; only concerned about preservation, not so much about angels merging with Lillith. (Though that would be bad too.)
Round 2 goes to Gendo and Fuyutski knowing where Adam is all along at this point while everyone else was totally misinformed. It's questionable as to whether or not Kaji knows at this point what's going on with Adam.

3) We finally see Adam in Gendo's hand by the last few episodes. It's clear from Gendo's conversation with Ritsuko that they know, but the kids don't know.
Round 3 goes to Gendo, Fuyutski, and even Ritsuko knowing the whereabouts of Adam this whole time! Everyone else was just totally misinformed.

4) In EoE, Misato finally learns of everything NERV and SEELE were up to through the information Kaji had given her. Adam isn't mentioned.
Round 4 goes to Misato finally knowing part of what's been going on behind her back the whole time. She's only been upgraded to slightly misinformed, rather than totally misinformed.

[Allemann]

Kaji was the one who personally brought Adam to Tokyo 3 and he even heard of Shinji magnificent battle with Sachiel. He even mentions it to both Shinji and Asuka. So he knows that those angel/eva battle in Tokyo 3 could not have been over Adam.
Round one goes to Gendo, Fuyutski, and Kaji knowing where Adam is all along at this point while everyone else was totally misinformed.

Then why did Kaji say to Misato that that white colossus is Lilith? There was a reason why Angels were going to Tokyo-3, but at that point the writers didn't intend to identify Lilith with the white crucified colossus as they did in later episodes. What was the explanation for the coming of Angels to Tokyo-3 at that very same point is unexplained.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Then why did Kaji say to Misato that that white colossus is Lilith? There was a reason why Angels were going to Tokyo-3, but at that point the writers didn't intend to identify Lilith with the white crucified colossus as they did in later episodes. What was the explanation for the coming of Angels to Tokyo-3 at that very same point is unexplained.

Could it be that Kaji wants his own version of Third Impact to go down? And that misinforming Misato and leading her on a rabbit trail would only make her send Shinji out to the Mass Produced Evas where all everything will go haywire? I mean, he does kind of use Misato in the same way Gendo used Ritsuko or Naoko Akagi. Kaji was just better at that aspect of seduction than Gendo was.

And when looking at why Kaji was seem to intentionally misinform someone about Adam, there are few other conclusions to come to.

[Allemann]

Could it be that Kaji wants his own version of Third Impact to go down? And that misinforming Misato and leading her on a rabbit trail would only make her send Shinji out to the Mass Produced Evas where all everything will go haywire? I mean, he does kind of use Misato in the same way Gendo used Ritsuko or Naoko Akagi. Kaji was just better at that aspect of seduction than Gendo was.

Then Kaji is a genius mastermind if he can manipulate with events long after his death, even knowing Seele will invade the Nerv base and the MP Evas will appear. Totally plausible. Totally.

Seriously, all this contrived fanwanking makes no one happy. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it must be a duck, or in this case a plot hole.

[Xard]

Errrr, why do you think they wanted to?

...because that's what they're talking about in ep 10 and what the whole damn ep is ABOUT

I think there's a miscommunication since I wasn't just taking the in-series stuff into account, but the clear lack of knowing what they were doing going as far back as 2I. It was only after Gendo proposed the HIP that they had a clearly defined plan. But even with that, a lot of it was improvised because of how events unfolded.

No. They clearly knew what they were doing during Second Impact - the experiment simply went awry. HIP had been around before Gendo proposed it but they lacked the courage to push forward with something so ambitious.

It contains everything the artist intended and nothing they didn't and managed to provoke the kind of reaction Kubrick attended in as large a portion of the audience as possible while also being a revolutionary landmark in its medium on a variety of levels. Any charges of it not being perfect have to resort to arbitrary standards. Works like NGE, Hamlet, War & Peace, and many other masterpieces don't do that, and are almost antithetical to such standards even on the levels they do work on.

Nonetheless it isn't flawless and hence not perfect.

If you're constantly making shit up then such intricate patterns don't/can't emerge over the whole.

Most of your "intricate patterns" are nothing but fanwank though.

"Rarely in long term"? Oh, really?

Yes really.

Waiting 16 episodes to get directly to many of the series' themes isn't "long term"?

Not only this is wrong (it dives straight into main themes back at ep 1) but you give off the deliciously wrongheaded impression that Anno planned the mid-series shift ahead.

Waiting until ep. 23 to reveal Rei's origins isn't "long term"?

It could be deducted far earlier and in any case there was no "bait-and-switch" about revelation about Rei.

Waiting for EoE to reveal the connection between Angels and Humans isn't "long term"?

Where is the bait-and-switch here?

Then your definition of "making shit up" is basically anything that doesn't fall under the "we didn't have every detail planned beforehand"? Really? I guess all fiction falls under the "made shit up as they went along" label, then.

What the hell are you talking about. No, I'm saying Anno approached Eva with "deductive method" of creating, not inductive.

Yes. I've often said NGE is more like improvised jazz than carefully composed classical.

and this is still true but nonetheless you confuse new developments and retrospective "patterns" for KEIKAKU DOORI

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Then Kaji is a genius mastermind if he can manipulate with events long after his death, even knowing Seele will invade the Nerv base and the MP Evas will appear. Totally plausible. Totally.

I'm not saying Third Impact did end up happening Kaji's way, or that he had figured everything out to make that heppen. But it wouldn't have hurt him to throw his lot in with the others in this matter; probably doing so in a manner as laid back as his seductions. He was going to die no matter what, after all.

[Allemann]

I'm not saying Third Impact did end up happening Kaji's way, or that he had figured everything out to make that heppen. But it wouldn't have hurt him to throw his lot in with the others in this matter; probably doing so in a manner as laid back as his seductions. He was going to die no matter what, after all.

This is baseless and contradicts the events in the show. Kaji's sole intention is to thwart the conspiracy that goes on under the auspices of the high ranked U.N. members who are also a part of an ancient cabal, and prevent the Third Impact taking place. And if he did want to control the Third Impact, how would he have done it dead? He didn't have the Adam embryo in his hand, nor was he inside the Eva. Misato also died before explaining everything to Shinji, who has been completely oblivious of the entire thing. And what Misato knew wasn't the mechanics of the instrumentality process, so we can reasonably conclude Kaji didn't knew them either. Without them you are unable to have any kind of control. He might be a spy, but he doesn't have complete access to everything like Gendo, a years long Seele member, who knows how one can manipulate the Third Impact.

[Xard]

Kaji wanting Third Impact violates everything else we know about him. Theory is dead from start

[Azathoth]

I'm not saying Third Impact did end up happening Kaji's way, or that he had figured everything out to make that heppen.

You're reaching considerably here. But, I do think there's probably a few ways that the later change in identity can best be rationalized: either Kaji actually thinks they grew the embryo into the white giant or he is deliberately lying to Misato. While the second might be true, Kaji being Kaji - I can't imagine what he'd think he could gain by lying Misato, especially when he's going to become so dedicated to her finding the truth later on. So, I don't see why we can't assume the second. Kaji knows plenty about Nerv and SEELE and all, but he knows shit-all about Eva itself. Given the bizarre regenerations some of the Evas go through, I don't see why it would be too impossible for him to think that the embryo grew into the white giant.

Indeed, before they decided that it was Lilith in Terminal Dogma, that's presumably what was intended to be true.

[Ornette]

It's possible Kaji had a change in heart at some point, when he realized how fucked up everything was the more he dug into it, and that his own time was running out.

[Seele00TextOnly]

...

[AshPhoenix]

The bold stuff is complete asspull.

I don't think it's completely off...
From what I see, Adam was encased in bakelite to prevent him from growing, and Gendo and Fuyutsuki did know Adam's location at that point.

Okay, back on topic:
If the whole thing boils down to the Episode 13 dialogue, then it should probably be discussed more in-depth.
One thing, though. Gendo says the contaminated area is too close to Adam, but if the Angels aren't after Adam, then why would he care? Unless Gendo is aware that "Adam" is actually Lilith, so it's worrisome to him that Iruel should get close to Lilith.

[Eva Yojimbo]

If Evangelion is like jazz, then it's an improvisational mess.

Says you. Empirical evidence strongly suggests otherwise.

Then why did Kaji say to Misato that that white colossus is Lilith?

Why does a question I already answered keep getting asked without anyone addressing it?

@Xard  SPOILER: Show

...because that's what they're talking about in ep 10 and what the whole damn ep is ABOUT

I think you misunderstood: I meant "why would they wanted to have captured an angel in the first place?"

No. They clearly knew what they were doing during Second Impact - the experiment simply went awry.

How could an experiment go awry if they knew precisely what they were doing?

HIP had been around before Gendo proposed it but they lacked the courage to push forward with something so ambitious.

An organization who's willing to sacrifice an enormous portion of the population during 2I doesn't lack "courage". This interpretation makes no sense. What would make sense was if they weren't quite sure how to proceed to fulfill their plan until Gendo gave them one.

Nonetheless it isn't flawless and hence not perfect.

If by "it" you're referring to 2001 then I disagree. Nonetheless, perfection shouldn't be the ultimate goal of art to begin with.

Most of your "intricate patterns" are nothing but fanwank though.

All of your unsubstantiated propositions are nothing but unsubstantiated propositions though.

Not only this is wrong (it dives straight into main themes back at ep 1) but you give off the deliciously wrongheaded impression that Anno planned the mid-series shift ahead.

NGE almost never directly confronted the themes in the first half. There are snatches here and there, but the majority of them are hidden underneath the dramatization. There's nothing in the first half as remotely extensive as ep. 16. What's more, just because Anno's vision only became clarified around the midway point doesn't really invalidate anything I said. All we have to go on is what actually happened, rather than exactly what Anno had planned. You know as well as I do his disillusionment with the Otaku community didn't just start during NGE's second half, nor did his desire to express his feelings about that and his depression either, yet none of these things are ostensibly present in the first half.

It could be deducted far earlier and in any case there was no "bait-and-switch" about revelation about Rei.

Disagree on both accounts. We're supposed to recognize Rei is different, yes, but I've never met anyone that insisted they saw ep. 23's reveal coming.

Where is the bait-and-switch here?

LOL, Angels are invading enemies that are nothing like humans VS LOL, Angels basically ARE humans and actually deserved to be here rather than us.

Where is the bait-and-switch here?

No, I'm saying Anno approached Eva with "deductive method" of creating, not inductive. [/quote]WTF does this even mean?

Where is the bait-and-switch here?

you confuse new developments and retrospective "patterns" for KEIKAKU DOORI[/quote]I'm "confusing" anything, I'm simply going on what's there. None of us have access to everything that was in Anno's head during any (much less every) point of the production. We all agree that many consistent links are spread throughout the entire series, and to assume that each and every one of them can be explained simply through coincidence or some kind of retro-engineering is asinine. Such things can explain SOME connections, yes. I've even argued that I've done such things in my own poetry. But even in such instances I still had a pretty good idea where I was going as well as having certain motifs in my mind beforehand.

Like jazz, Anno's intuitive understanding of where he wanted to go and what he wanted to do was his primary guiding factor throughout. He had a plan without consciously knowing the plan, which is not an un-typical thing in fiction. We know he had to (at least) have a pretty strong outline of the basics of where the series was going to go, which allowed him to focus on many of the details along the way. Sure, some things slip through the cracks, but that's inevitable in a production that turns out to be so vast on so many levels. But to say these things argue for him just "making everything up as he goes along" is stupid.

[NemZ]

1. Kaji knew that Gendo wanted Adam for some purpose.

2. The only "giant being" that Kaji and Misato ever knew about was Adam.

3. Both know that the Evas were "grown" from samples of Adam.

4. Logic would conclude that Gendo and co. had created the giant in TD in the same way, and that that giant was Adam. What else was there to assume when they encountered it?

It works perfectly logically, actually.

Either that or, as I believe I said earlier, this is a cloned body into which he assumes the Adam sample was to be implanted to resurrect the first angel.

The numbering is only a problem if you assume that is open knowledge and not something that's been tampered with... Like Gendo surely does in all reports after not reporting Iruel's attack.

[Six Winged Angel]

1. Kaji knew that Gendo wanted Adam for some purpose.

2. The only "giant being" that Kaji and Misato ever knew about was Adam.

3. Both know that the Evas were "grown" from samples of Adam.

4. Logic would conclude that Gendo and co. had created the giant in TD in the same way, and that that giant was Adam. What else was there to assume when they encountered it?

It works perfectly logically, actually.

It makes perfect sense

And also, when Gendo and Fuyutsuki mention that the angel is close to Adam, doesn't Kaji see Iruel being at actually quite few levels above Terminal Dogma? It is crystal clear to me that they are refering to the actual Adam embryo and not Lilith.