Eva pet peeves

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Rei IV
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Postby Rei IV » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:25 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:I haven't really been following the thread, so I'm sure others are just as guilty... I've kind of refrained from posting here myself since it seems to basically amount to

"[Insert exaggerated and ridiculous-sounding version of some position I don't agree with here]"
or
"Stop disliking/liking what I like/dislike"

Well, I can't speak for others but I do share the sentiments of those who are peeved about the dismissal of Rebuild Evangelion. I'm new to the fandom so I may not be "qualified" to speak but while it maybe conceded that the films are "watering" down the original series, I often get hear comments about how they suck because they're new, they don't carry the spirit of the anime, they piss on characterization (can't argue with that, unfortunately), how money grubbing Anno has become and etc.... Basically, how much is sucks because isn't on par with the original anime. YouTube is haven for comments like these in regards to ANYTHING pertaining to the recent films.

But then again, I saw the Rebuild movies before I saw the original anime series in its entirety, so I have some attachment to them.

:toothy:

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Postby riffraff11235 » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:58 pm

View Original PostRei IV wrote:...they piss on characterization (can't argue with that, unfortunately)...

I don't see how these fans expect Khara to fit the character development of an entire 26-episode show into a series of 4 movies. If they did do that, people would be complaining that there wasn't enough action in Rebuild. I try to refrain from comparing NGE and NME as much as I can.
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Postby NemZ » Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:45 pm

It's a valid complaint. No there isn't as much running time to work with, but clearly the new films are much more focused on providing huge spectacle battles with the time allotted rather than developing the cast, which is pretty much the opposite side of the balance that the series took.
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Postby Kendrix » Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:48 pm

Rei being reduced to either of her "ingredients."
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Postby Darkwing » Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:54 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:Rei being reduced to either of her "ingredients."


Could you elaborate on that? I don't understand.

I'm starting to get a new one. Letting friends borrow the first two movies, and explianing to them that Shinji isn't supposed to be cool. "Goddammit Shinji, stop being a pussy" misses the point. What's screwy is they never had this problem when they watched the original!
I'm not sure what I feel about Eva anymore, but I'm pretty sure I don't actually enjoy the series anymore.

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Postby Kendrix » Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:17 pm

View Original PostDarkwing wrote:Could you elaborate on that?


Whenever the treatment, be it in fanfic or actual elaborate essays, amounts to "Ok, so it turns out she's really Lillith, mystery solved!" or "So she's actually Yui, looking after her baby from beyond the grave, and that's it."


With that perception, it's clear why some people would reach the conclusion/interpretation of "She's just a bland, creepy plot device that only exists to represent X and everything she does/happens to her is related to that", but that's missing the point, that's ignoring this whole human girl stuck in there somewhere, that "pool of inner waters trying to finally conncect to the surface", the main conflict, theme of "Which components actually define your identity?", reduces/simplifies any of her interactions and makes the whole relatability factor inacessible.
If you look at her like that, you'll never try to see her from her own PoV.
Any relatability goes to hell if you don't look at "Rei, the lonely teenaged girl who feels insignificant" and I guess that personally irks me because I related to her a lot, found a lot of my own life reflected there.

It doesn't help that this is one of her actual fears: "You're afraid that you will disappear from the minds of others if another exists".



I can sorta live with the "little sister" interpretation, because that still gives her a place of her own, and I can't tell people not to like S/A just because I don't.
If it's the result of an eventual revelation and developement that is, because whoever says Rei and Shinji have a sibling bond in the source material is probably an only child.
A sibling is someone who has known you all your life and seen you in all sort of silly, everyday situation, so there's little of you they don't know, you let your guard down around them, you get silly, you don't put up any show.
You can usually tell when Shinji has someone in that "familiarity sphere" when he begins getting snarky with them, as with Touji and Kensuke or his flatmates.
No snarking with Rei. Last names. It's not that he doesn't open up to her, he tells her quite a lot in, say, episodes 6 or 15, but any crossing of the distance is a slow and tentative trickle where every little detail is valued/reacted to /dwellt on, any glance, any minute change of expression, and you can tell that Shinji thinks about her possible reaction to every word he says, he doesn't "blurt it out naturally".
That's not how siblings act, anyone who says the act like siblings must never have had any actual siblings. They act more like... yeah, teenagers with a crush. Rei: "You were looking at me! But was it only because you wanted to as me about Gendo? :("
Or she's like, that insecure, nerdy girl in your class who happens to have less "girly" interests, so you can actually talk normally to her and be her friend, even if you're also insecure.
But this is not what a sibling bond looks like. Anyone who says that probably doesn't have any actual siblings. I'd know, I have four of those little beasties, my brother being only marginally younger.
Last edited by Kendrix on Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.
I wanted to try harvesting the rice

I wanted to hold Tsubame more

I wanted to stay together forever with the boy I like

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Postby Darkwing » Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:28 pm

Oh that. Well if we were to include all the bad charecterization from Fanfics the list would get real long real fast. Though that is one.

Another is turning charecters into a plot device for moralizing instead of charecters.

3.0 spoilers ahead.
SPOILER: Show
I'm afraid of this happening to Rei in Final as some sort of message about Shinji needing to let go, blah blah, growing up, blah blah, happiness no matter how bad it gets, turning her from an actual charecter to a plot device for a moral. You know ignoring that in story Rei is supposed to be a person.
I'm not sure what I feel about Eva anymore, but I'm pretty sure I don't actually enjoy the series anymore.

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Postby Kendrix » Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:42 pm

Anno wouldn't do that, he created the original in the first place, and the original was written in a way that her scenes actually indicate how she feels about the whole deal and her individual developement.


Even in Q,
SPOILER: Show

ReiQ, for example, is there as a symbol for Shinji's failure, but we also get some hints as to how she's feeling, she's all sort of confused and overburdened, and that gets its moments of emphasis.
If we see ReiII again, there's no reason to suspect she won't get the same treatment, even if there is a tragic farewell scene of sorts.
Anno won't forget the other aspects, when did he ever?
2.0 doesn't neglect her PoV, Q... well, she isn't in there but ReiQ has her PoV considered, and some of the things Shinji says/does only make sense if her PoV as an individual is not considered unimportant. "This is your hobby I paid attention to it." "But what about you, what do you do here all the time?" "So you're not the same person! ... So I failed you *curls into ball*"

But you could say that some of the hater response and expectations are really tied to them oversimplifying Rei "Lolfreud and that's all."
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Postby Na7e » Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:48 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:Anno wouldn't do that, he created the original in the first place, and the original was written in a way that her scenes actually indicate how she feels about the whole deal and her individual developement.


Anno wrote:In the midst of making Eva, I suddenly realized that I had forgotten her. Her very existence. For example, in episode seven, I remembered and added one shot with Rei. I had no attachment to her at all. I think that was okay, because in episode eight, she didn't appear. Not even in a single shot.


http://forum.evageeks.org/post/414209/Books-Shizo-Parano/#414209

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Postby Kendrix » Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:52 pm

^He certainly remembered her by the time the third act rolled around.

Part of that was because he thought he'd already said too much of what he wanted to say by episode 6, so he was out of material, regarded her as finished business until his muse came again.
He definitely has a weird relationship with writing her, (it gets rather funny in the CR - "I had nothing to do with the pokapoka, she practically wrote it herself!" ) but that doesn't change what the end result is and what kind of scenes it has in it, there's multiple scenes long dealing with nothing but her inner universe, the most infamous one being in episode 14.

- and during that particular storyarc, he probably got carried away with how hilariously disfunctional everything between Shinji and Asuka is, it even happens to me of all people, I blink, and suddenly, that whole FF chapter is nothing but Asuka!
I even got called out on it once "Please put more Rei in the next one etc."

And suddenly I understand how episodes 8 to 10 came to be...

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Postby Na7e » Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:10 am

View Original PostKendrix wrote:And suddenly I understand how episodes 8 to 10 came to be...


The proposal makes it clear that episodes 8 and 9 were going to be heavy Asuka regardless.

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Postby Darkwing » Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:41 am

View Original PostNa7e wrote:The proposal makes it clear that episodes 8 and 9 were going to be heavy Asuka regardless.


Sort of funny Anno waited that long since he had the idea for Asuka's backstory floating around for a long while.

Speaking of Asuka both me and a friend were irritated that they didn't take the chance with Rebuild to establish her earlier.
I'm not sure what I feel about Eva anymore, but I'm pretty sure I don't actually enjoy the series anymore.

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Postby CJD » Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:00 pm

View Original PostDarkwing wrote:Speaking of Asuka both me and a friend were irritated that they didn't take the chance with Rebuild to establish her earlier.


Earlier or more? While I'd have loved more Asuka I wouldn't have wanted them to introduce her any earlier. The first 6 episodes are very important for both Shinji and Rei's introduction and development. You throw Asuka into the mix and it becomes a mess. Considering how close 1.0 was to those 6 episodes I can't see how they could have included Asuka without sacrificing the significance of the "smile" scene.
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Postby Darkwing » Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:22 pm

In his case more charecterization time, and not just for Asuka. Well he understands the limitations of doing it in movie format.

For me more to establish her. I think their is one mention of Unit-02 and the second child. A few lines about how the European branch is dragging their feet getting Unit-02 ready, or how the operation would be easier with another pilot or child. Or even Shinji wondering why they don't get the second to do this when he's upset about having to pilot.

I am very glad though about the increased focus on Shinji and Rei's relationship.
I'm not sure what I feel about Eva anymore, but I'm pretty sure I don't actually enjoy the series anymore.

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Postby Kendrix » Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:57 pm

The problem about inserting Asuka into the prologue arc is, the fact that they have no one other than Shinji and Rei available is a frequent plot point, a lot of the scenes wouldn't have quite the same tension if Asuka was out there with them unless she was very, very useless, because they involve putting Shinji in a situation where it all depends on him.

I don't see the Shamshel battle working with reinforcements, nor the following argument (Shinji: "I don't wanna do this but the only other option is that injured girl, right?" Misato: STFU, that's an excuse. How'd they make that dialogue wortk with another, non-injured pilot available? )
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Postby CJD » Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:17 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:(Shinji: "I don't wanna do this but the only other option is that injured girl, right?" Misato: STFU, that's an excuse. )


Oh Misato...
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Postby Darkwing » Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:15 pm

Man that raises so much fridge logic about both series. Okay, they didn't have time to get Asuka from Germany to Japan when Sachiel attacked, but you'd think they'd want to get the actually trained pilot there afterwards while they try and get Shinji trained.
I'm not sure what I feel about Eva anymore, but I'm pretty sure I don't actually enjoy the series anymore.

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Postby Kendrix » Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:53 am

Maybe transporting an EVA across half the globe is a very laborious process? And/Or there were bureaucracy issues? It took so long to get all these ships/ the governments responsible for them to cooperate?

There's also the possibility of some of these always plotting background parties delaying it for some reason, maybe Gendo wanted a justification to reactivate the prototype...

Or he wanted the transport to coincide with Adam being in his grasp and ready to be transported over, and had Kaji delaying their European collegeaues for a bit...

It's more understandable that it would take them the week or so that 1.0 took place in, but the 3-weeks gap between episodes 2 and 3 and the week that elapses before/during episode 4 are another issue....
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Postby Mr. Tines » Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:38 pm

Ships are not fast. even though they can be under way for 24 hours in the day. It takes 3 weeks from Perth, WA via South Africa and the Canaries to Portsmouth. Given the direction that Asuka approaches from first makes landfall near Nagasaki, before heading north-east to the Tokyo area, she's probably made a similar distance from Germany, through the Indian Ocean and the South China Sea even if there is a working shortcut at Suez after 2I; or longer yet if she went via Panama.
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Postby Kendrix » Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:06 pm

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:Ships are not fast. even though they can be under way for 24 hours in the day. It takes 3 weeks from Perth, WA via South Africa and the Canaries to Portsmouth. Given the direction that Asuka approaches from first makes landfall near Nagasaki, before heading north-east to the Tokyo area, she's probably made a similar distance from Germany, through the Indian Ocean and the South China Sea even if there is a working shortcut at Suez after 2I; or longer yet if she went via Panama.


So the month or so it took in the original series makes sense?
Unlike their Rebuild-counterparts, they did not seemed to have known exactly when Sachiel would come...


It does seem inconsistent that EVA 13 got put on a plane and arrived pretty soon after EVA 04 exploding gave them a reason to send it in the first place.
Maybe they had the EVA-plane built after transporting an EVA via ship resulted in that surprise visit from Gaghiel?

...then again, given the end results, the ships worked better...
I wanted to try harvesting the rice

I wanted to hold Tsubame more

I wanted to stay together forever with the boy I like


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