What would you change about Evangelion?

[Derantor]

Well, the original dub is still much better than either ADV or Netflix at getting nuance across. Give it a try, the difference is pretty large.

[Bagheera]

Well, the original dub is still much better than either ADV or Netflix at getting nuance across. Give it a try, the difference is pretty large.

With Asuka in particular. I could never understand why people thought she was obnoxious until I saw the ADV dub. Once I saw it everything clicked.

[BusterMachine4]

Well, the original dub is still much better than either ADV or Netflix at getting nuance across. Give it a try, the difference is pretty large.

I actually have watched the original Japanese by myself, and I did try to show them that version originally, but they can’t read subtitles very well so they were more confused and bored than anything else. After 3 episodes of them not liking it at all, I decided to start over with the Netflix dub. They ended up liking it a lot more.

Either way, I don’t think we can pin all these issues on just them watching the wrong version. I found Asuka just as obnoxious in Japanese as I did in English.

(Bumped)

And while we're still on the subject of my friends' watch-though with me, I also came up with another suggestion.

I know it's been suggested before, but the fanservice should probably be reduced. I found it somewhat uncomfortable watching it for the first time, and my friends seemed even more uncomfortable. We just watched Episode 10, and when Asuka flaunted her breasts in front of Shinji, one of them compared it to porn. Probably not the reaction you want from a scene involving 14 year old children.

[UrsusArctos]

If you want to bump a thread where you were the last poster, don't double post. Copy the contents of the previous post into the new one and delete the old post to bump it up.

Out of curiosity, what part of Miyamura's Asuka did you find so obnoxious? Granted, Asuka can be unpleasant at times, but I also found Miyamura's performance to bring out the other parts of Asuka's character - the childish, innocent and playful parts, and did more to bring out the fact that Asuka, in the end, is a horribly tormented and broken little girl desperate to compensate for the loss of parental affection in her childhood.

Episode 10 is terrible all around. It's the one episode of Evangelion that is truly, unquestionably substandard and its treatment of Asuka has much to do with it.

[BusterMachine4]

Out of curiosity, what part of Miyamura's Asuka did you find so obnoxious? Granted, Asuka can be unpleasant at times, but I also found Miyamura's performance to bring out the other parts of Asuka's character - the childish, innocent and playful parts, and did more to bring out the fact that Asuka, in the end, is a horribly tormented and broken little girl desperate to compensate for the loss of parental affection in her childhood.

Well, I found Asuka annoying for the same reason you mentioned: the fact that she can be "unpleasant at times." And I would say it's more than just occasionally as well: the parts that you describe as "innocent and playful," I see as just Asuka asserting her dominance and berating Shinji even more. Her character is very unpleasant to me, and from what I understand that's how a lot of people felt. I wouldn't blame it on voice acting.

Episode 10 is terrible all around. It's the one episode of Evangelion that is truly, unquestionably substandard and its treatment of Asuka has much to do with it.

Yeah, I know that's pretty much the consensus, especially because they include way too much fanservice stuff. I mean, when you have a scene of Asuka flaunting her breasts taken straight out of a porno, and then end the episode with a fricking boner joke, you have a problem.

Also, why was Shinji even studying at a pool in the first place? You'd think that would probably be the worst place to get some peace and quiet.

[Mr. Tines]

because they include way too much fanservice stuff

It may be that I'm old and jaded, but I always felt that Misato way oversold the level of service on offer, at least compared with other series that I had seen, such as there was barely rising to the level of PG-13 -- I mean, in the crawling through the service ducts, we never even got confirmation that Shinji was able to get a glimpse of her pantsu (or get a glimpse that he didn't). The main thing to remark on this topic is that episode 10 does double duty as both the beach episode and the onsen episode, each an almost obligatory feature.

While Tiffany Grant played Asuka much as a shrill red-headed stereotype (at least for as far as I followed the dub), Miyamura's performance is rather more nuanced. The opening scenes of that episode spell out for you where she is coming from vis-a-vis Shinji -- still hoping against hope to get some sort of confident self-assertive response from another "elite Eva pilot" like herself (only male).

[robersora]

^
Don't forget that we've been conditioned to see assertive, boisterous women as nags. I'm positive, if Asuka was a dude, none of that would be a problem. Male Asuka would be perceived as a cool dudebro at worst/best and a funny doofus at worst/best.

The thing with the fan service... The German dub completely went by the board with this expression, as they felt it wouldn't make sense in German so leaving it out was the better choice. (which I agree with).
I think the fan service thing was more or less a running joke?

[BusterMachine4]

It may be that I'm old and jaded, but I always felt that Misato way oversold the level of service on offer, at least compared with other series that I had seen, such as there was barely rising to the level of PG-13 -- I mean, in the crawling through the service ducts, we never even got confirmation that Shinji was able to get a glimpse of her pantsu (or get a glimpse that he didn't). The main thing to remark on this topic is that episode 10 does double duty as both the beach episode and the onsen episode, each an almost obligatory feature.

I mean, they could have just not done a hot springs episode. Is there a law saying that every anime has to have one? Would Eva really be reduced in popularity nowadays if they hadn't done one? Also, you gotta agree that a scene of a 14 year old girl flaunting her breasts, followed by a scene of an older woman touching said girl sexually, is highly questionable.

While Tiffany Grant played Asuka much as a shrill red-headed stereotype (at least for as far as I followed the dub), Miyamura's performance is rather more nuanced. The opening scenes of that episode spell out for you where she is coming from vis-a-vis Shinji -- still hoping against hope to get some sort of confident self-assertive response from another "elite Eva pilot" like herself (only male).

Well, I wouldn't really say that. Asuka's personality is really weird and complicated: otherwise there wouldn't be so many people who can't really sympathize with her character (like me for example). And are you sure they couldn't have shown Asuka trying to get Shinji's attention in a way that doesn't seem like it came straight out of a porno? The other episodes were able to do that perfectly fine. Plus, I already told you guys that we're watching the Netflix dub, so you don't need to make it seem like I'm watching ADV.

^
Don't forget that we've been conditioned to see assertive, boisterous women as nags. I'm positive, if Asuka was a dude, none of that would be a problem. Male Asuka would be perceived as a cool dudebro at worst/best and a funny doofus at worst/best.

Do we really need to play the gender card here? I assure you, I'm very much a feminist. I love strong women, but I don't like bullies. And Asuka just seems like a bully to me. That's pretty much the entire point anyways: Asuka is just as messed up as Shinji, just in the opposite way. If someone saw guy Asuka as being cool and funny, that's their problem. I personally wouldn't like her even then.

The thing with the fan service... The German dub completely went by the board with this expression, as they felt it wouldn't make sense in German so leaving it out was the better choice. (which I agree with).
I think the fan service thing was more or less a running joke?

It wasn't entirely a joke, no. There were a lot of moments clearly just intended for titillation, like Ritsuko's swimsuit striptease, or Misato wearing tight shirts with no bra. It's just when it starts involving 14 year old children that it gets a bit uncomfortable.

[robersora]

Do we really need to play the gender card here? I assure you, I'm very much a feminist. I love strong women, but I don't like bullies. And Asuka just seems like a bully to me. That's pretty much the entire point anyways: Asuka is just as messed up as Shinji, just in the opposite way. If someone saw guy Asuka as being cool and funny, that's their problem. I personally wouldn't like her even then.

I'm not playing a "gender card", no need to get defensive. It's just something I thought about might as well be possible.

It wasn't entirely a joke, no. There were a lot of moments clearly just intended for titillation, like Ritsuko's swimsuit striptease, or Misato wearing tight shirts with no bra. It's just when it starts involving 14 year old children that it gets a bit uncomfortable.

I meant the remark itself became a running gag, as it was said at the end of almost every preview, even if the following episode didn't contain fan service.

[Derantor]

Well, girls trying to get the attention of boys by showing off isn't exactly unheard of. It made sense for her character, and she was still dressed ... not exactly pornolike, imo. It tied into the story well, both from a character perspective as well as a thematic one. It wasn't gratuitous "let me wiggle my ass for the audience" slut-suit stuff.

I must also break a lance in defence of Magma Diver. It's a great episode. It shows a rare moment of Shinji manning up, answers a few nagging questions (like, why can't they attack the Angels, but have to wait for them), reveals first glimpses of Asuka's and Misato's past, shows that Shinji is a normal (and pretty smart) boy after all ... dunno, it's just a good, fun, episode. And that's before we get into galaxy brained stuff like Asuka hanging from a "noose" and Sandalphon trying to cut her loose. Hello there, Kyoko parallels ... there's much more (like one of the rare Asuka/Kaji scenes), but this isn't the thread for an in-depth defence of Magma Diver.

[robersora]

^
I agree.
I also think Asuka using her body to get attention is well within Soryou's character, as opposed to Shikinami who would never do something like that having to wear the slut-suit.
The worst Evangelion Episode is still better than 85% of other Anime out there, lol.

[BusterMachine4]

Well, girls trying to get the attention of boys by showing off isn't exactly unheard of. It made sense for her character, and she was still dressed ... not exactly pornolike, imo. It tied into the story well, both from a character perspective as well as a thematic one. It wasn't gratuitous "let me wiggle my ass for the audience" slut-suit stuff.

I mean, it was an in-character moment, but it was also a moment clearly intended for audience titillation. If it wasn't, they woudn't show a close-up as Asuka's breasts in that swimsuit. Some people may find that highly uncomfortable, which makes sense. After all, they're still children.

I must also break a lance in defence of Magma Diver. It's a great episode. It shows a rare moment of Shinji manning up, answers a few nagging questions (like, why can't they attack the Angels, but have to wait for them), reveals first glimpses of Asuka's and Misato's past, shows that Shinji is a normal (and pretty smart) boy after all ... dunno, it's just a good, fun, episode. And that's before we get into galaxy brained stuff like Asuka hanging from a "noose" and Sandalphon trying to cut her loose. Hello there, Kyoko parallels ... there's much more (like one of the rare Asuka/Kaji scenes), but this isn't the thread for an in-depth defence of Magma Diver.

Well, if Magmadiver was really such a great episode, why would it be on so many people's "worst Eva episodes" lists? For me, the problems are threefold:

1. Too much fanservice. I already addressed this, but when you're including a scene of a boy getting a boner from a scene of borderline lesbian pedophilia, you've gone too far in my opinion.
2. Actions and plot moments that don't really make sense. Why does Misato care about Asuka's grades if she already graduated from college? Why was Shinji even at the pool to witness the porno scene with Asuka in the first place? How was Unit 1 able to get all the way down there when Unit 2 was struggling even with a heavy diving suit on? You get the idea.
3. Way too much comedy. The over-the-top sitcom atmosphere of the Action Arc is at its worst here. Do I need to mention the fat suit or, one again, the boner joke? I'm glad they abandoned this direction for the show relatively quickly.

[Derantor]

Well, if Magmadiver was really such a great episode, why would it be on so many people's "worst Eva episodes" lists?

Because millions of flies eat shit. (Or, to put it differently: what most people think doesn't have to be true.)

1.: Hm, sounds like half of that is your imagination (the lesbian pedophilia bit). Again, showing a teenage girl in a swimsuit isn't pornographic - it's something you see at a public bath all the time. It was character development, most of all. And a teenage boy getting a boner? Sounds totally far fetched to me.
2. Because Asuka has to go to school and Misato tries to be a good parent that teaches her children discipline? Because they were left behind when everybody else went to Okinawa and spent their time in school normally? We don't know when Shinji jumped, if you are alluding to the time, and there's a difference between short-term stress and long term stress. For example, you can dive hundred of meters deep without a breathing aparatus (if you are fast enough) and won't suffer divers illness. Stay underwater longer, and you do. Also, it's the action arc. Asuka doesn't kill hundreds of people while jumping from ship to ship in Episode 8 either (and neither does she sink the ships through structural damage. The Evas also don't sink into the ground even though they should, because of their weight).
3. A matter of personal taste, surely. So I won't argue against that.

Magma diver does a lot to flesh out the characters. And the silliness is part of that. Sure, it might be the most lighthearted one (but then again, what about that silly dance routine?), but it isn't only that. And I'm pretty sure that if we hadn't seen more lighthearted moments early on, the descent arc wouldn't have worked as well.

[BusterMachine4]

1.: Hm, sounds like half of that is your imagination (the lesbian pedophilia bit). Again, showing a teenage girl in a swimsuit isn't pornographic - it's something you see at a public bath all the time. It was character development, most of all. And a teenage boy getting a boner? Sounds totally far fetched to me.
2. Because Asuka has to go to school and Misato tries to be a good parent that teaches her children discipline? Because they were left behind when everybody else went to Okinawa and spent their time in school normally? We don't know when Shinji jumped, if you are alluding to the time, and there's a difference between short-term stress and long term stress. For example, you can dive hundred of meters deep without a breathing aparatus (if you are fast enough) and won't suffer divers illness. Stay underwater longer, and you do. Also, it's the action arc. Asuka doesn't kill hundreds of people while jumping from ship to ship in Episode 8 either (and neither does she sink the ships through structural damage. The Evas also don't sink into the ground even though they should, because of their weight).

1. I don't think I was exaggerating when I called it "borderline lesbian pedophilia." It's the stereotypical anime scene of one girl being like "Can I touch your boobs for a second?" and the other girl responds "UwU, don't touch them, they're sensitive!" and then the one girl touches them anyway. No one acts like this in real life, especially not when one is a child and the other is an adult. And about the swimsuit scene being for character development, I once again point you to the close-up shot of Asuka's breasts. If it was entirely for character development, they probably wouldn't include that shot. But that shot's inclusion leads me to think that a main goal of the scene was audience titillation.
2. But Asuka already graduated from college, Misato has no right to be concerned about a class that Asuka has clearly already aced. And I know that the pilots were left behind, I'm just wondering why Shinji was studying next to a pool? Seems like the worst place to study for me. And I think that just because one scene made a minor scientific oversight doesn't mean that the show now has a right to make a completely ridiculous oversight later on. The argument about diving time doesn't really apply, because it's fricking lava. Practically anything would disintegrate instantly in those conditions.

Magma diver does a lot to flesh out the characters. And the silliness is part of that. Sure, it might be the most lighthearted one (but then again, what about that silly dance routine?), but it isn't only that. And I'm pretty sure that if we hadn't seen more lighthearted moments early on, the descent arc wouldn't have worked as well.

People sometimes make that argument, but in my opinion all the Action Arc's cartoonish ridiculous moments did was clash horribly with the rest of the show. If you compare a clip from the Action Arc with a clip from EoE, they seem like two entirely different shows. I would have been fine with some minor scenes of levity, but completely hijacking the tone of the show for a few episodes before changing it back to what it was originally is not a good idea in my book.

[kuribo-04]

These disussions about how evil and pedophilic the fanservice in Eva is (it is neither IMO) remind me of my first posts here. I don't know if everyone goes through that development or if I turned to the dark side.

[BusterMachine4]

These disussions about how evil and pedophilic the fanservice in Eva is (it is neither IMO) remind me of my first posts here. I don't know if everyone goes through that development or if I turned to the dark side.

Well, I don't find it evil, that's a ridiculous accusation. It's just a bit uncomfortable, that's all. But to say it isn't at least a bit pedophilic to sexualize a 14 year old girl's boobs and butt is also ridiculous. It doesn't fit the textbook definition (hebephilia would be a more accurate term), but it fits what the term has become in our culture, and it's still not really okay in my opinion.

[kuribo-04]

∆ I didn't mean to be insulting with the evil thing, just wanted to be comedic about it.

I just don't see the Eva characters as kids at all. Well, it is rather flexible, depends on the scene, how it is presented, how the characters are drawn and voiced, etc. But viewing them as literal 14 year olds kinda misses the point imo.

If you ask me what they were going for with characters like Asuka or Rei, ist's probably something like an idol in their 20s, as far as how they are depicted. Go to Ghibli for more accurate 14 year olds.

There is always the alternate explanation that literally all of Gainax are pedophiles (and most of the anime industry, since most anime seems to set its stories in high school), I just don't think that's likely.

Edit:

Both of these characters (Kiki and Asuka) are supposed to be 13 and it's pretty hilarious:

SPOILER: Show

[BusterMachine4]

I just don't see the Eva characters as kids at all. Well, it is rather flexible, depends on the scene, how it is presented, how the characters are drawn and voiced, etc. But viewing them as literal 14 year olds kinda misses the point imo.

If you ask me what they were going for with characters like Asuka or Rei, ist's probably something like an idol in their 20s, as far as how they are depicted. Go to Ghibli for more accurate 14 year olds.

There is always the alternate explanation that literally all of Gainax are pedophiles (and most of the anime industry, since most anime seems to set its stories in high school), I just don't think that's likely.

If that's what they were going for, why not just have the characters actually be in their 20s? A 20-something body on a 14 year old girl is still really weird.

And I wouldn't be so sure that the anime industry isn't at least a bit pedophilic. Everyone knows that Japan has a ridiculously low age of consent, it's just part of their culture. Doesn't make it any more right though.

[kuribo-04]

∆ AFAIK it's as ilegal as most places in Japan to have a relationship with a minor. Don't trust those weird rumors.

And well, the high school setting is perfect for storytellytelling, so when you can get away with it in animation...

It allows for more different characters to be in the same environment (could you imagine Asuka and Shinji studying the same degree?...or freakin Toji?) and it's instantly understandable/relatable (everyone has been to high school, it is universal/nostalgic/etc.).

There's also just this whole series of character dynamics, cliches and so on that anime directors can build upon now. It's kinda how the Weast seems to be obsessed with crime stories.

EDIT:


https://www.reddit.com/r/self/comments/4tj7wp/debunking_the_myth_that_the_age_of_consent_in/?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=&utm_content=post_body
Accordimg to this "actual" age of consent puts it at 16. Which would be the same as Spain and other European countries, where common sense dictates 18 is the actual bare minimum.

I think age of consent should rise most places, but that is another topic.

[robersora]

About the pedophilia:
These are drawings, not real children. So while it's kinda weird if a 30 year old man lusts after them, their bodies are depicted as if they were much older and it's not as if actual children are being sexualized. As to why Japanese Animation turnt out that way, that's a whole other can of worms.
The show is aimed at teenage boys, so it makes sense to portray them sexily. I was horny af when I was 14, I especially loved looking at the outline of the dick of my teacher who was like 25 years older. Saying 14 year olds do not have a sex drive is kind of hypocritical.