What would you change about Evangelion?

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Re: What would you change about Evangelion?

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Postby Berserk EVA-02 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:43 pm

View Original Post5284973 wrote:Only thing I know about the manga is that it also makes some... other... changes to Kaworu as well :sweatdrop:

Frankly many aspects of manga-Kowaru, such as him killing the cat as to prevent it from further suffering, I do find to be extremely interesting. It accentuates on the moral dissonance between him and an actual Lilim, clearly showing that his reasoning is not one of a Lilim and that he is greatly different from them, psychologically speaking. Whilst Kaworu in NGE is unfortunately misinterpreted by mainstream viewers as an ideal, flawless human devoid of psychological complexes, Kaworu in the manga is more clearly differentiated from humans as his dissonance/incompatibility with human thought is apparent and works very well. It sells the idea of Kaworu being an Adam-based angel quite more effectively and without the idolatrous idealism.

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Re: What would you change about Evangelion?

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Postby BernardoCairo » Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:11 am

Kaworu is an interesting character. I believe that he is a great antagonist and the most interesting angel of the series. The way he twisted the "monster of the week" formula (by subverting many elements of it, while also retaining some of its core ideas) is really impressive. Just like any other angel, he appeared, generated a conflict and was eventually defeated. The key differences here are the way he chose to devise said conflict and the fact that his actions continue to impact history even after his death. Unlike the other angels, Kaworu is not just a mere target that must be defeated. He is a full-on character. But that doesn't mean that he is not a "monster of the week". You got what I said?
By the way, I think that his relationship with Shinji (as we see in the original series) would only work if he appeared in the last possible second. I mean, at that point, Shinji had lost almost everyone and the only friend I can see he thinking about without fear or regret was missing for days. So, it made a lot of sense for him to let his guard down. Otherwise, I can't see it happening.
But you know what's crazier? Even with everything I just said, I still don't like him hahahaha.
Now, "manga Kaworu" is different. Sadamoto took a bunch of creative liberties while working with his character. And you know what? It paid off! On one hand, almost everything that I found to be impressive about him on the original series was gone. On the other, I had a little bit more fondness for him in this version.
I love how he is portrait as a weirdo with no knowledge on how humans work. His lack of sympathy is beyond irritating and sometimes I want to punch him in the face (just like Shinji). But I understand him, I guess. In the end, I actually feel a little sorry for that Kaworu.
By the way, he made me laugh on several pages as well. His naivety is both frustrating and fun to me (specially fun hahaha).
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Re: What would you change about Evangelion?

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Postby Javi2541997 » Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:37 am

I would give class 2-A mates more scene minutes. I missed more dialogues of Toji with Shinji or Asuka with Horaki (I think both could be great friends). I mean a more interactive perspective. Sometime the don't even appear in the psychology/philosophy scenes where the three pilots are having an "existencialism crisis time" It looks like they just have a secondary view.
This also happens with Ritsuko's coworkers (Maya and the stuff) we know they work with her but not about their personality. Well it is true Maya has some Greta minutes scenes and appears is so connected with Ritsuko but we don't know yet how far can go this "relationship"
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Postby Heaven Piercing Man » Sat Jan 30, 2021 10:57 pm

The series? Make EVA-01 actually do something and talke advantage of its infinite energy after Episode 20.

The New Movies? See the birth of WILLE and the actual 3rd Impact before the timeskip.

Something meta? Erase all loopers from the fandom. You guys were right. In less than a month I've gone from casual fence sitting looper to full blown seething anti-looper. The amount of smugness from smartass casuals still worshipping a goddamn 4chan collage from 10 years ago, and acting all puzzled that some new detail from Q or Shin doesn't fit with The Theory™ as if a goddamn fanwank had more priority than ACTUAL CONTENT MADE BY ANNO.
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Postby chee » Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:24 pm

View Original PostHeaven Piercing Man wrote:meta? Erase all loopers from the fandom. You guys were right. In less than a month I've gone from casual fence sitting looper to full blown seething anti-looper. The amount of smugness from smartass casuals still worshipping a goddamn 4chan collage from 10 years ago, and acting all puzzled that some new detail from Q or Shin doesn't fit with The Theory™ as if a goddamn fanwank had more priority than ACTUAL CONTENT MADE BY ANNO.


welcome to fandom, enjoy your brain poison

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Postby baldur » Mon Mar 15, 2021 5:49 pm

If I'm unhampered by realistic expectations or logistics, here are a few things I'd change.

META:
- Any and all sexualizing of 14-year-old characters in merchandise is gross and bad, full stop, no exceptions.
- Same applies to fetishistic bullshit with the female characters (these two issues are unfortunately often connected).

NGE:
- Episodes not being limited to just 20m would help the pacing a lot, I think. For the most part, I don't mind the frenetic pacing of NGE at all but I definitely think some extra time would help certain scenes breathe or have more impact. I think the extended Director's Cut episodes have noticeably better pacing pretty much across the board.
- I think the whole question of whether it's Adam or Lilith in Terminal Dogma is unnecessary and frustrating. I like that NGE is mysterious, misleading and confusing, but this aspect is just excessive at parts. Unlike many great details in NGE, it falls apart under closer inspection, and leads to some truly baffling stuff like Kaworu's behavior in Episode 24'. At this point I think it's all but confirmed that Lilith being in Terminal Dogma was an unplanned retcon, so I'm very happy this (specific) confusion did not carry over to Rebuild.
- Toji should've died, which Anno agrees with me on.
- I think more could've been done with Rei, especially considering how fundamental she is to the story. Anno has mentioned how he feels Rei was unable to develop further as a character by Episode 6, which is why he sort of loses interest in her afterwards (to the point where he "forgot that she was even in the show"). I don't really agree with his thoughts on Rei, and I think she should've received more focus regardless of that. Honestly, most of NGE's characters don't fundamentally change very much throughout the story, so I don't think the reasoning holds up well. Though it is somewhat interesting how Rei is a neglected character both in and out of universe.
- Kaworu probably would've benefitted from more time in the story, though I'm not completely sure how this should've been executed. I don't think introducing him earlier would work, so I think the best solution would be to simply extend his arc to 2 or 3 episodes, similar to episodes 5/6 or 17/18/19. I will say, though, for someone that only appears in 1 episode, Kaworu really is an exceptional character.
- The Angels should've been more fleshed out, the idea that they're "human" like us and the morality of killing them is brought up a few times but not really explored in much detail at all.
- I feel like there should possibly be more explicit condemnation of Gendo, who is an absolutely irredeemable piece of shit. At the same time, I don't really feel like the show downplays him all that much, but it is odd how the actual extent of how terrible the dude is seems to slip past many viewers. It's a common sentiment that NGE doesn't have a villain or antagonist because every character's worst enemy is themselves, and while I like that line of thinking, I also think the show's closest thing to a central antagonist is Gendo Ikari.
Sidenote: On the topic of Gendo, I was going to say that he maybe could've used more backstory explaining why exactly he's so horrible and what Yui even saw in him, but after thinking about it, I feel like it's not needed. His purpose as a character is largely to serve as a warning for what Shinji might turn into (some of Shinji's worst behavior reflects this), and additional backstory for Gendo would probably just detract from that.
- Less reused footage and more consistent animation quality overall. I love many of the creative solutions that the limitations forced out of the team, and I wouldn't want that essence gone, but it's always pretty jarring seeing blatantly reused footage.
- More variety in music instead of just the same reused tracks, however good said tracks might be. Again, this is something that Rebuild improved on.
- Honestly, just more of everything. I don't like stories that go on forever, quite the opposite in fact, but god damn do I often just wish there was more Evangelion to chew on. More episodes, more arcs, more character development and backstory for everyone, more interactions between everyone, more action, more drama. Rebuild, especially Q, partially fulfilled this wish of mine, to which I am eternally grateful.

EOE:
- Sike, The End of Evangelion is a perfect film.
- Except for that part where Eva-01 has hair. wut

NTE:
- I think on a visual level 1.0 and 2.0 don't even compare to 3.0 (and 3.0+1.0 from what I've seen of it), but I also think the difference in look is good and should be kept, so I don't know what could be done about that. It probably is an issue, though, when the original episodes are, in most instances, prettier than the remake.
- I enjoy 2.0 with somewhat of an ironic detachment. I don't think it's a joke film or anything but it feels like fan-fictiony wish fulfillment most of the time, and I personally believe that's an intentional choice that adds to many of NTE's thematic elements. Even if it isn't, 3.0 vindicates it regardless of authorial intent, as far I'm concerned. So it's an interesting film for me in that most of the stuff I think is "bad" is also stuff I wouldn't change because of how it builds up the bait-and-switch of Q. With that being said, some of the fanservice in 2.0 might be too much for my taste.
Sidenote: Scrolling through this thread was fun because many outlandishly bad changes that were suggested felt like they'd be right at home in 2.0.

Anyway... I honestly think that's all I have. Not many super substantive changes, mostly just small sprinkles here and there. I'm reaching for more to say, but I can't seem to think of anything else. Evangelion is already very good as it is.

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Postby Slowpokeking » Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:08 pm

Making Misato the true love for Shinji.

Mari is entirely unnecessary to add in, remove her.

Some plot of Q needs to be rewritten.

View Original Postbaldur wrote:- Kaworu probably would've benefitted from more time in the story, though I'm not completely sure how this should've been executed. I don't think introducing him earlier would work, so I think the best solution would be to simply extend his arc to 2 or 3 episodes, similar to episodes 5/6 or 17/18/19. I will say, though, for someone that only appears in 1 episode, Kaworu really is an exceptional character.


Kaworu was meant to be that way, has very short screen time but as a shining perfect angel like being. If you extend it his character would have been very much different.

Rebuild gave him too much plot.

- I feel like there should possibly be more explicit condemnation of Gendo, who is an absolutely irredeemable piece of shit. At the same time, I don't really feel like the show downplays him all that much, but it is odd how the actual extent of how terrible the dude is seems to slip past many viewers. It's a common sentiment that NGE doesn't have a villain or antagonist because every character's worst enemy is themselves, and while I like that line of thinking, I also think the show's closest thing to a central antagonist is Gendo Ikari.
Sidenote: On the topic of Gendo, I was going to say that he maybe could've used more backstory explaining why exactly he's so horrible and what Yui even saw in him, but after thinking about it, I feel like it's not needed. His purpose as a character is largely to serve as a warning for what Shinji might turn into (some of Shinji's worst behavior reflects this), and additional backstory for Gendo would probably just detract from that.

Agree, Gendo should have more background flash out to show his development and inner struggle. Make him more of a human being would be a good idea.

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Postby baldur » Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:13 pm

View Original PostSlowpokeking wrote:Making Misato the true love for Shinji.

That doesn't feel very appropriate.

View Original PostSlowpokeking wrote:Rebuild gave him too much plot.

I entirely disagree, Kaworu's fleshing out is one of the best things about that film (and there's a lot of good stuff about that film).

View Original PostSlowpokeking wrote:Agree, Gendo should have more background flash out to show his development and inner struggle. Make him more of a human being would be a good idea.

Well, I say in the part that you quoted that I went back on the idea so we actually don't agree there :mari_nya:

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Postby Slowpokeking » Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:55 pm

View Original Postbaldur wrote:That doesn't feel very appropriate.

Why? I'm not talking about sexual attraction, but love.

I entirely disagree, Kaworu's fleshing out is one of the best things about that film (and there's a lot of good stuff about that film).

I think he, as the "ideal perfect being" should just exist for a short moment that's all to avoid misunderstanding or misinterpretation of the relationship.

Well, I say in the part that you quoted that I went back on the idea so we actually don't agree there :mari_nya:

I think if you want to show his connection as "the one Shinji could become", you need to make him more human being and explain his background rather than just put him in the opposite side because it would serve the connection. At the same time make him "impossible to turn back".

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Re: What would you change about Evangelion?

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Postby Mr. Tines » Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:09 am

View Original Postbaldur wrote:
View Original PostSlowpokeking#915831 wrote:Making Misato the true love for Shinji.

That doesn't feel very appropriate.
It exists, it's called RahXephon.
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Postby BusterMachine4 » Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:40 pm

There's one part of this show that's been bugging me a lot recently, specifically in the original Japanese dub: Asuka's pronunciation of German. It's absolutely atrocious, and it's hard to believe that Asuka is a real foreigner if she speaks her alleged first language so horribly. I get the issues with native Japanese speakers trying to wrap their tongues around Western languages, but that doesn't make it any better. If I was directing Eva, I would have either hired a white foreign resident to dub those parts, or just avoided having Asuka speak German altogether.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:21 am

View Original PostBusterMachine4 wrote:If I was directing Eva, I would have either hired a white foreign resident to dub those parts, or just avoided having Asuka speak German altogether.
For the German voicing in the Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha series, the VA was Japanese, but born in Düsseldorf, however the number of such candidates is probably quite small. The hiring of a native speaker is not a total panacea -- the series also used the voice of Donna Burke, an Australian who had previously recorded announcements for the shinkansen -- but then gave her lines that were gloriously Engrish in their grammar.
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Postby BusterMachine4 » Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:14 am

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:For the German voicing in the Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha series, the VA was Japanese, but born in Düsseldorf, however the number of such candidates is probably quite small.

Yeah, I know there aren't a lot of bilingual Japanese/German speakers in Japan, and the ones there probably don't have the acting chops needed to play a character like Asuka. I was suggesting only having a foreign resident dub the parts where Asuka speaks with German: all the Japanese parts can be voiced by Miyamura, who did a great job otherwise.
The hiring of a native speaker is not a total panacea -- the series also used the voice of Donna Burke, an Australian who had previously recorded announcements for the shinkansen -- but then gave her lines that were gloriously Engrish in their grammar.

Yeah, I know that as well. But from what I understand, the German grammar in the Japanese version is actually pretty good. Tiffany Grant's rewritten German in the English dub is pronounced a lot better, but has worse grammar.

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Postby Slowpokeking » Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:16 pm

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:
View Original Postbaldur#915845 wrote:That doesn't feel very appropriate.
It exists, it's called RahXephon.

I watched it and it was vastly different.

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Re: What would you change about Evangelion?

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Postby pwhodges » Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:21 am

View Original PostSlowpokeking wrote:
View Original PostMr. Tines#915866 wrote:It exists, it's called RahXephon.

I watched it and it was vastly different.

Yes, indeed it is. The once fashionable characterisation of it as a sub-Eva ripoff is both inaccurate and lazy.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:39 am

It's a case of "robot pilot x older woman handler", especially in the movie re-telling, if that's what you are looking for, though, in the same way that, say, Fafner is KawoShin in the sense of "ambiguous bromance between robot pilot and 'angel'-like other pilot" on that level of detail.
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Postby Slowpokeking » Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:27 am

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:It's a case of "robot pilot x older woman handler", especially in the movie re-telling, if that's what you are looking for, though, in the same way that, say, Fafner is KawoShin in the sense of "ambiguous bromance between robot pilot and 'angel'-like other pilot" on that level of detail.

She isn't even older, they were at the same age really pissed me off. And he grew up to look just like his "brother".

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Postby EvaChero » Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:08 am

About the original.....not a thing, it's brilliant.

About D&R...... I would eradicate it because it felt like a clumsy squished together retelling of the first 24 episodes.

About EOE......not a thing...although Asuka's last stand could have been lengthened another 10mins.... :devil:

About Rebuilds.......Thats where it gets sticky for me....I still like them and they are beautiful to look at but it really felt
like they took all the characters and slightly watered them down by like 10% (I'm sure I'm not making sense) I mean Cringy was
lest whiny and apathetic...but that's kind of his thing. It felt like a little too much of the edge was taken off and it almost '
felt like Asuka was split into Asuka and Mari. Anyway its just MHO I still enjoy it greatly. If we all had the same opinion
we'd all be Rei's dummy plugs. P.S....don't care for the time skip...5 years maybe...but 14?!?
who doesn't want to kick back with Misato and have a few beers?

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Postby LazyPOS » Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:09 pm

A few things about NGE and EoE:
SPOILER: Show
I would've expanded the role of Toji. Give him a win against an Angel, which would require to extend Shinji's Leliel prison a little. And show a little more of him and Hikari after their hospital scene.
Give Kensuke something to do. Like showing his reaction to Bardiel incident, or deciding that he doesn't want to be a pilot, or at least aknowledging that piloting the Eva is not a s rad as he thinks. He was the only character I felt genuine hate about while watching Eva.
Change MAGI somehow... The way MAGI functions sounded completely nonsensical to me. Have no idea with what to replace it with though.
Make Asuka little less agressive at the beginning, and slowly breaking her facade as the events go. End result would be the same
Give a little more information about FAR. Maybe through speculation between Ritsuko/Misato/Kaji or through Gendo/Fuyu. Also give a better explanation how the Spear of Longinus works.
MINOR NITPICK: remove those obelisks that represent SEELE. Don't know why, but I really hate them. Them showing only Keel after they introduced the obelisks felt weird.
Give Kaji his manga backstory.
Give Kaworu a episode or two more, but not too much. Have him appear in school prior to actually getting closer to Shinji. Not sure if this would improve or ruin him, though.
More breather episodes, like exploring tests and Eva maintenance with NERV staff or school episodes. Maybe even throw in a few more angel fights.

EoE... Is perfect as it is. I would've maybe incorporated parts of 25 and 26 into Instrumentality. Changing the ending of EoE would almost certainly ruin it.
I would've loved to see a post-3I OVA, but I have no idea how would that look like. It's never gonna happen anyway.

Overall, turn NGE into a longer anime. 30-35 episodes.


As for NTE:

Only spoilers for the first 2 movies  SPOILER: Show
I don't like them because one aspect of the Eva I liked is absent from them: satisfying character development, due to lack of time. I won't be ranting because I still haven't seen Shin, and there's too much pointless Rebuild bashing already

The big change I would do that would've probably solved all problems I have with the movies: Instead of 4 movies, 2 anime seasons. Then you have the time to develop characters (especially Mari and Shikinami), and earn going full meta at the end of the series with satisfying results. And then the Rebuilds would be able to stand on it's own, without watching NGE.

First season would cover 1.0 and 2.0, and second 3.0 and 3.0+1.0, maybe making an OVA for the timeskip later.

But you announce that you're gonna do a 26 episode remake with slight alterations. At around episode 22, you do a Zeruel fight, N3I happens, and you finish the episode with words "Evangelion will continue in 20XX"

Also, hire Satsukawa as a script writer, since he seems to be present in all of my favorite episodes

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Postby VindexTD » Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:26 am

Well, I'm only gonna talk about the original series and the rebuilds, as it's the only things I've seen so far.

It's hard for me to pinpoint big flaws, frankly. I'm probably hella biased, but the flaws I've noticed, at least, never made me wish for it to be different, but I guess there are two exceptions:

1) The way Asuka's absolutely despicable behaviour is just tolerated by the adults, mostly.
I love and respect her for the person she really is beneath all that sass and trauma, obviously, but I think it's safe to say that everyone would agree that her behaviour towards Shinji, her pervasive narcissism and overall aggression, insolence, etc, is just not okay, especially since it has also led to her endangering her team mates. Normally, a responsible adult would try to get that under control, let alone a superior of a militaristic secret organisation with the purpose of saving the world, yet whenever she displays these traits, consequences rarely ever hit her. Shinji gets shat on and the adults just dismiss it as kids being kids, even if he didn't do a thing. In the episode "Both of you, dance like you want to win", when Shinji had a way easier time dancing in sync with Rei, Asuka got childishly offended and Hikari demanded Shinji go apologise, like ????????

I dare argue that not only would it have reduced the extend of the torture porn these scenes essentially felt like, but it would have contributed to the realism of the humanity at play: It would have both expanded on the interactions that could have been had, but would have also created more, and more realistic, conflict for Asuka and potentially more insight into her mind earlier on.


2) The lack of backstory. And this is universal for many characters, but especially Shonje-kün.
Shinji, our lad, watched his mum die and was then abandonned when he was 5. He lived with his teacher until moving to Tokyo 3. Aight, so what happened during all that time?
What was his (arguably non-existant) social life like? His experiences? What was his bloody teacher like? Anything?
This is the main character of an insanely complex psychological drama/horror, how in the fuck was this not addressed more?
Granted, Anno sure as hell managed to deliver a beautifully profound profile of this character, thanks to the story he put him in, his place therein and the way it was told. Obviously, this level of detailed backstory is not strictly necessary, but at the very least, in order to give more substance to Shinji's psyche, it could have had a few more details, especially in terms of social life, one of the main subjects of the bloody franchise.

Let alone the level of backstory some others received. More was not always necessary to explain their place within the anime, I do admit, like Rei, for instance, I doubt there would have been much to tell, anyway, but it would have been SO impactful to have a deeper peer into Gendo's life, just slightly, at least, so as to not spoil what's really going on within him before EoE, but enough to just, you know, be like: "Oh yeah, that explains some shit..."

Then again, Misato, for instance, had quite a bit more back story, comparatively, and while Ritsuko did not, she had enough for what was needed. But maybe, a deeper look into her end would have given her relationship to papa Gendo more substance.
So with the way Anno presented the story of Shinji, Gendo and a few others, maybe more was not truly necessary, but I'd say it could not have been wrong.

But another aspect that could have used some backstory is the world itself: How was the Tokyo 3 Geofront constructed? What's up with the UN and what's the rest of the world like? Things like these are being touched on, sure, but never enough to give us a full image of what lies behind some of these things. For some, it's definitely not necessary, or even cointer-intuitive, to give more backstory. I'd argue that if Seele had too much it, it would strip it of its mysteriousness and the effect it has as a truly intimidating global power beyond our knowledge. Let alone the Angels, although he do have that "God-alien" interpretation now.
Last but not least, Eva 3.0 RELIES on us being completely oblivious to what the fuck went on in the previous 14 years and that's hard to pull off and a delicate beauty to maintain, but I think they did that really well.
Last edited by VindexTD on Sun Apr 04, 2021 2:30 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Ain't nothing wrong with a little tear-shedding, every once in a while.


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