Shinji and Asuka

[Soluzar [ANF]]

This was my earlier point. His resolution to his attraction to Asuka is to seek here as a chaste guardian, not an object of desire.

Stuff and nonsense. Within the context of this assesment, kindly explain away the masturbation scene. If you could ever manage to do so credibly, then I might give this assessment the time of day. As it stands, you are flogging a dead horse.

So what do you think made him realise this? Her declaration that her pride was wounded or that she wanted to get back at Misato and Rei? I don't see much in this scene that would make Shinji of all people suddenly look at Asuka differently. She's very much as she's always been.

You don't see what I see, then? You don't see a girl who is truly hurt because she felt that she had been rejected by Shinji? You don't see a girl who has finally shown her softer side? The chinks in her armour? The fact that she is no lesss fragile and breakable than Shinji himself? I submit that you are not looking hard enough.

I've always thought his was smiling because he's finally figured out that it's not him she was mad at. Also, now the plan was going to work, thanks to Misato's stunt with Rei.

It is my opinion that the plan would have worked equally well from a technical point of view, had the pairing been Rei/Asuka, Rei/Shini, or Asuka/Shinji. Rei seems to me more than capable of executing the attacks with the required precision.

Quote: Originally Posted by Reichu @Magami: Asuka's actual line is "Kizutsukerareta PURAIDO wa juubai ni shite kaeshite yaru no yo!" I guess a more literal assessment of this than ADV's original subtitle might be, "I'll pay them back tenfold for my injured pride!" Only tenfold, Asuka?

What were his lines beforehand exactly. Wasn't he expressing disapproval at her wanting to triumph over Rei and Misato? Shinji's not the type to admire animosity in others. So what's he smiling at?

The fact that down inside, he knows that this story was a crock. She just wants to be partnered with Shinji. He's not quite stupid enough to fail to realise this, and so he is pleased. And no, it was not precisely disaproval. It was just Shinji's usual mild-mannered nature suggesting moderation in this, as in most things

Well, the entire foundations of her justification for existence have just been kicked out from under her. She's gone from being the one chosen child to a replaceable unit. I can sympathise with how that sort of thing can make you feel.

As do I, but I would not accept that this was the feeling at work in this scene. Asuka has never been the one chosen child - she was always one among a minimum of three, possibly to be more later. Even in terms of this operation, she was one of two. The best she could ever aspire to was "first among equals". This is not by itself, sufficent to set aside her displacement as pilot as the reason for her dismay, but Hikari seems very clear about what has upset the Second Children. Add to this the fact that Shinji is accepted immediately as a ready and welcome remedy to her woes. Add to this the fact that she was being replaced by another girl. Add to this the fact that she may well have confided in Hikari in the off-screen time prior to this event, and then finally add in the events of later in the series and later in the episode, and within the context of everything we know about Shinji and Asuka, it begins to look - to me at least - like somewhat of a compelling case for her separation from Shinji as being the cause of her grief.

If this were an isolated incident, then your assesment of the situation would be my assesment, but Asuka has previous form of being jealous, should anyone attempt to come between her and Shinji. She would never admit it openly, not to herself, much less to him, but she is drawn to this boy.

Originally posted on: 11-May-2005, 23:25 GMT

[OMF [ANF]]

Quote: Originally Posted by OMF This was my earlier point. His resolution to his attraction to Asuka is to seek here as a chaste guardian, not an object of desire.

Stuff and nonsense. Within the context of this assesment, kindly explain away the masturbation scene. If you could ever manage to do so credibly, then I might give this assessment the time of day. As it stands, you are flogging a dead horse.

Surprisingly I can! It's indisputeable that Shinji had sexual desires for Asuka, but he would never allow these to manifest themselves. He bottled them up until they exploded when he was presented with the very object of his most secret fantasies, i.e. Asuka's bare breasts. What else could explain the hospital scene in Air?
Shinji wants a relationship with Asuka, but NOT a sexual one. Not consiously at least. He does have sexual desires for her, but he'd rather keep their relationhip an asexual one. I can prove this with screenies, and shall shortly.

You don't see what I see, then? You don't see a girl who is truly hurt because she felt that she had been rejected by Shinji? You don't see a girl who has finally shown her softer side? The chinks in her armour? The fact that she is no lesss fragile and breakable than Shinji himself? I submit that you are not looking hard enough.

The fact that down inside, he knows that this story was a crock. She just wants to be partnered with Shinji. He's not quite stupid enough to fail to realise this, and so he is pleased. And no, it was not precisely disaproval. It was just Shinji's usual mild-mannered nature suggesting moderation in this, as in most things

To be fair, it took the DC cuts in 22' for most of us to cop that Asuka has a soft spot for Shinji at all. So it seems highly unlikey Shinji would have grasped it from this paticular exchange. Shinji was never able to decrypt Asuka's obfuscated courtings.

It is my opinion that the plan would have worked equally well from a technical point of view, had the pairing been Rei/Asuka, Rei/Shini, or Asuka/Shinji. Rei seems to me more than capable of executing the attacks with the required precision.

I meant he'd realised Misato's plan with Rei, and that it had worked. Asuka was now going to try her damnedest.

As do I, but I would not accept that this was the feeling at work in this scene. Asuka has never been the [b]one[b] chosen child - she was always one among a minimum of three, possibly to be more later. Even in terms of this operation, she was one of two. The best she could ever aspire to was "first among equals".

I don't think so. Asuka always wanted to best the best of the best of the best. Nothing less would do for her. The reason she is so distressed, in part at least, is because she has been caught completely off guard. Her smug confidence in her own indispencability "There's no one else. is shattered by the sudden and completely unexpected revelation that she is, like the rest, ultimately replaceable.

She would never admit it openly, not to herself, much less to him, but she is drawn to this boy.

Yes. that's indisputable.

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 00:19 GMT

[Joeshie [ANF]]

Surprisingly I can! It's indisputeable that Shinji had sexual desires for Asuka, but he would never allow these to manifest themselves.

And yet he does allow them to manifest themselves on several occasions.

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 00:27 GMT

[Gundampilotspaz [ANF]]

And yet he does allow them to manifest themselves on several occasions.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...ND_OF_EVA-7.jpg

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 00:41 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

That never actually happened in physical reality, tho.

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 00:59 GMT

[Digitalex [ANF]]

This was my earlier point. His resolution to his attraction to Asuka is to seek here as a chaste guardian, not an object of desire.

Sorry. You'll never sell me on that one. Yes he was confused, yes he didn't know what he wanted (in the beginning), but I don't see any evidence that he seeks a "chaste guardian" in Asuka. Not one. He desires her and explicitly states later in the series that he wants to be with her forever. I don't know how you can see that as something other than desire and the beginning of love (sexual and emotional) towards Asuka as a partner.

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 01:07 GMT

[Soluzar [ANF]]

Surprisingly I can! It's indisputeable that Shinji had sexual desires for Asuka, but he would never allow these to manifest themselves. He bottled them up until they exploded when he was presented with the very object of his most secret fantasies, i.e. Asuka's bare breasts. What else could explain the hospital scene in Air?

Surprisingly, what you just said doesn't include any evidentiary support for your theory - my emphasis. Until and unless you can present any credible evidence, and I'm pretty sure that none exists, I shall remain constant with my previous theory, which is that Shinji desires a romantic, and sexual relationship with Asuka, but is scared by it. This does not mean that he does not consciously want that type of a relationship, it simply means that his fears may hold him back from actualising it.

Shinji wants a relationship with Asuka, but NOT a sexual one. Not consiously at least. He does have sexual desires for her, but he'd rather keep their relationhip an asexual one. I can prove this with screenies, and shall shortly.

What you are suggesting doesn't hold much water. He fantasizes about her, he has masturbated over her comatose form, and he has, on the few occasions they were made available to him, availed himself of the opportunity to take a look at her breasts. To suggest that he does not want a sexual relationship doesn't seem to me to be a theory that I should even give consideration to.

You will never convince me with a bare and unsupported statement of that theory, because it would take a revelation of titanic proportions to convince me that you are correct.

To be fair, it took the DC cuts in 22' for most of us to cop that Asuka has a soft spot for Shinji at all. So it seems highly unlikey Shinji would have grasped it from this paticular exchange. Shinji was never able to decrypt Asuka's obfuscated courtings.

Incorrect. It took until the DC cuts in 22' for most of us to understand that she acknowledges her fondness for Shinji. That she is drawn to him has been known to many, if not to myself, since before the DCs came out.

Quote: Originally Posted by Soluzar As do I, but I would not accept that this was the feeling at work in this scene. Asuka has never been the one chosen child - she was always one among a minimum of three, possibly to be more later. Even in terms of this operation, she was one of two. The best she could ever aspire to was "first among equals".

I don't think so. Asuka always wanted to best the best of the best of the best. Nothing less would do for her. The reason she is so distressed, in part at least, is because she has been caught completely off guard. Her smug confidence in her own indispensibility "There's no one else. is shattered by the sudden and completely unexpected revelation that she is, like the rest, ultimately replaceable.

Explain Hikari. Then we'll talk. With regard to the rest of this quote, you have clearly misunderstood me. I will endeavour to make it clear to you now. The term "first among equals" implied that she can never be the only one - she will always be one of three Eva pilots, possibly more. She can aim to be the best of those three, but never to to truly surpass them. The most she can do is to surpass their performance, she can never negate their status as Eva pilots, and hence de facto her equals.

Yes. that's indisputable.

Good. I'm glad we agree on some things. Now, explain Shinji's smile, explain Hikari, and provide at least some textual support for your theories. You really can't expect to convince me with just your own words, when the events which take place on screen appear to contradict you. At the very minimum, while my theories may not be correct, they at least are lent credibility by not contradicting that which is incontrovertible.

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 01:11 GMT

[Boshka [ANF]]

I would say that Asuka is very much in love with Shinji and its not that she doesnt know how to show her feelings its that she wont let herself.
Now mind you I havnt watched this in a while so im going to have to rewatch it now. But if I recall in some of the flashbacks it shows her for the most part being rejected by her mother. At that time she says she doesnt need her mother or anyone else for that matter that she can take care of herself. So in this moment she is saying she doesnt need anything from anyone this would also mean she doesnt need love from anyone or atleast real love. The feelings she has for Koji are safe they are unreal because she knows there is no chance of anything happening there so she can pretend.

Then there is another flashback where she is running home and is all excited when she arrives there hanging is her mother. So after all this going on about I dont need anyone that she will be fine on her own. When something good happens she looks to someone she loves to share it with. This person is her mother even after saying she doesnt need her she finds herself going to her. And now its pushed home more that she cant count on anyone other then herself not even those she loves as they are never going to be there for her.

So then we jump ahead to her and Shinji kissing this is where I think she has a weak moment. She may kiss Shinji for something to do or to prove to herself that it means nothing or both. However in that kiss she realizes her feelings for him and pulls away because she cant love anyone not really love them because then she would have to depend on them and that cant happen.
And even worse every time she turns around Shinji is showing to be a better pilot getting more praise. She is suppose to be the best that is what she has worked for all her life. And now she finds that she is falling in love again she cant do this because she cant depend on anyone. And to really screw things up its with someone that might be a better pilot then her. The two things that are not suppose to happen in her world just did and she cant let it.

This is why I think she picks with him and trys to put him down when ever she gets the chance. Not to truly be mean, but to be sure that any chance of him maybe liking her and perhaps even more is squelched and never given a chance.


I would right something on Shinji, but this has taken me like 1.5hours to do this one as im at work and have ppl calling me while doing this damn bastards .

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 02:11 GMT

[OMF [ANF]]

*groan*
*berates self for not proof reading post*

Surprisingly I can! It's indisputeable that Shinji had sexual desires for Asuka, but he would never allow these to manifest themselves.

This is clearly incorrect. In my defence, the browser did crash while I was writing this out the first time. His desires DO manifest themselves. But only twice. Once when he tries to kiss her in episode #09 and again in EoE Air. Here was what I had to say way back when about these incidents

My thinking on Shinji's disapproval of sex is contained in the Shinji the Prude post. However the incidents you mention are important. I take these as moments when Shinji's pent up libido finally came crashing through, where his hormones finally overwhealmed him and he sought release. Perhaps the first is less obvious, but the second incident cannot be viewed in any other way! Why on earth would Shinji do that to Asuka in EoE? I'd argue it was because he had denied his sexual urges for so long that when finally he was presented with the bared, comatose Asuka, so willful had his bottled up urges become that he completely lost control, only to regain it in the instant after the deed was done, leading to his all consuming guilt and remourse.

Again look at the kiss scene. If Shinji truely wanted a romantic relationship with Asuka, then why, why did he do nothing? He has lusts for her, that is clear. He also looks up to her and desires her respect. Why then did he not hug, "hold", her when she kissed him? What was the reason for his frigidity?

Simple social ineptness? That cannot be so. Consider how cordial the two were only hours before in the cello scene. Their relationship up to now has been improving, reaching it's peak, for Shinji at least, in the cello scene. Why does he recoil now? My argument is he still wants a relationship with her, but he does not want to be her boyfriend.

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 02:20 GMT

[Magami No ER [ANF]]

^Why? because he lacks self confidence, and was only able to be cordial with Asuka because she complimeted him. He really needs those to reaffrim that what he's doing(playing cello) is worth it, what he's doing(piloting Eva) is worth it, what he's doing(living, just plain living) is worth it.

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 02:26 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Or, perhaps, is not emotionally ready to be her boyfriend and is frightened by the prospects...

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 02:26 GMT

[Magami No ER [ANF]]

That too, which is more like that for a "normal" boy. Shinji ain't quite normal. But there really isn't one answer, there are many combined factors and answers. If there was but one, Anno would've probably known it, and not have to create these teenage psyches in order to explore the answer for himself, while making a cool anime and some money.^^

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 02:32 GMT

[Soluzar [ANF]]

Well, I'm going to keep on pushing this analysis forward, even in the absence of any indication that it's hitting any of the right notes, and now I come to the pivotal scene of this episode, from the point of view of the Asuka/Shinji relationship.



Misato has gone out, leaving the two Children alone. When Asuka realises this, in screenshot number thirty-five, she makes what appears, any way you look at it, to be an extremely suggestive comment to Shinji. In my mind, that statement, coupled with the tone of voice, and body language of its delivery, translates directly to "lets make out!"

Shinji, of course, is clueless, and perhaps even a little scared, as can be seen in screenshot thirty-six. Asuka picks up her futon, and carries it through into another room. Shinji, as can plainly be seen in screenshot thirty-eight, looks devastated, the look on his face says more than words ever could.

What he does not realise is that this is a test of sorts. The Second Children slams the door behind her, only to re-open it, and lean through on her knees to tell the Third Children, "This is the impenatrable "Wall of Jericho", Third Children. Take one step over this wall, and you'll be a dead man. And now, it's time for children to go to bed!"

What are we to make of this? Well, as those of us who were "fortunate" enough to have been raised in a Christian household will certainly know, the "impenatrable" walls of Jericho proved to be anything but, in the Biblical story. The walls were brought down by the host of Israelites led by Joshua.

From this we may draw the conclusion that Asuka may have been speaking metaphorically, and her meaning may have been that her "walls" could be brought down if only Shinji was willing to "sound his horn" and show a little courage. Am I reaching? Perhaps. The astute viewer may notice two additional details about this scene, though.

The first additional thing to notice is that there was no reason for Asuka to re-open the door after decending to her knees in order to deliver this challenge to Shinji. The primary reason that she did so, in my opinion, was to better display her breasts to the young boy. As can be seen in screenshot 40, this had the desired effect. When the camera cuts back to Shinji, his eyes are clearly angled downwards, towards the enticing cleavage that Asuka has carefully displayed for him. This is clearly deliberate on the part of the animators, since after a moment, his eyes move upwards, though perhaps reluctantly. Watch this animated GIF I've prepared of that cut, and you'll notice what I mean. Then watch the episode, just in case you suspect me of altering the material to suit my own theories.

The second thing that is notable is that Asuka refers to Shinji (indirectly) as a ""child" - not in the sense that they are both "(Second, Third) Children", but in the sense of a person who is (or possibly who is acting like) a juvenile. My own theory on this is that she calls him this for two reasons. Firstly, she is dissapointed that he hasn't responded yet to her overtures, and secondly, she is challenging him to prove her wrong, and break down the walls of Jericho so that they can get sweaty together.

Once again, Shinji fails her, as he probably will keep on doing for many years once the anime has concluded. She delivers her challenge, and as it becomes clear that he will not respond, she grows angry, and slams the door againg.

Sadly for Asuka, it seems that the closest he can come to pursuing intimacy with her is to gaze longingly at her breasts while she is sleeping, and try to steal a kiss while she is still asleep. This is not the act of courage she was looking for, and in fact, it disgusts her, as another act of weakness which typifies Shinji's behaviour to date, in her eyes. The important parts of #09 are concluded, and I shall pick up again once I've had a chance to more closely review the material of episode #10.

Again look at the kiss scene. If Shinji truely wanted a romantic relationship with Asuka, then why, why did he do nothing? He has lusts for her, that is clear. He also looks up to her and desires her respect. Why then did he not hug, "hold", her when she kissed him? What was the reason for his frigidity?

Why? because he lacks self confidence, and was only able to be cordial with Asuka because she complimented him. He really needs those to reaffirm that what he's doing(playing cello) is worth it, what he's doing(piloting Eva) is worth it, what he's doing(living, just plain living) is worth it.

Or, perhaps, is not emotionally ready to be her boyfriend and is frightened by the prospects...

I'd really have to say that I'm in total agreement with Magami and Reichu on this point. I think that he does want the relationship, but he is not ready for it. That isn't so hard to understand.

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 02:36 GMT

[Magami No ER [ANF]]

^Very nice, that makes sense.^^

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 02:40 GMT

[Soluzar [ANF]]

^Very nice, that makes sense.^^

Thank you, I've been working quietly on my theories about Asuka and Shinji for a long time now. Does you remember my "Shinji is homosexual!" phase? Once the dust settled from that, I became determined that I would make myself comprehend this bizarre and twisted relationship.

Having said that, if I can see far, it is only because I am stood on the shoulders of giants.

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 02:42 GMT

[Magami No ER [ANF]]

Wow, never thought I'd get quoted from that. I appreciate it.
But I was sincere, that did make sense.

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 02:44 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Actually, there's one thing in #09 that you forgot...



Okay, it's only one frame, but when I first stumbled upon it I totally cracked up. Asuka: "Hmm, are my flirtations working? Let's check..."

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 02:49 GMT

[Magami No ER [ANF]]

Shinji's eyes seem get all "pretty and young-looking" when he's with Asuka, and hers do the opposite. ;;p

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 02:51 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

I'd say you're mostly on the right track here, except for one thing: the trick to understanding what is going on here is that between cut "35" and "36", a sustantial ammount of time goes by "off camera" during which Asuka is getting more and more impatient and frustrated by the fact that Shinji is just sitting there, with his headphones on, and his head up his ***, completely failing to pick up on what she was implying by "we're all alone tonight"... She finally gets disgusted and stalks angrily into her room, taking her bed roll with her, and, to salvage her wounded pride, makes a sneering parting shot as to how it's "time for children to go to bed!"

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 02:52 GMT

[Digitalex [ANF]]

Soluzar...

I totally agree and caught that Walls of Jericho metaphor when I first watched it. I also believe that Asuka was giving Shinji multiple chances to be a man and stake his claim.

I'd really have to say that I'm in total agreement with Magami and Reichu on this point. I think that he does want the relationship, but he is not ready for it. That isn't so hard to understand.

Ditto.

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 02:54 GMT