Shinji and Asuka

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Postby OMF [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:08 pm

MavsWorld wrote:If she really wanted to insult and hurt him why would she tell him where he is going wrong towards her and insult something more personal to him. She doesn't insult his piloting or anywhere that will hurt him here, she just points out the parts where towards her he is going wrong. Everything she says there could be solved with more confidence towards her.


Yet it is clear that Shinji's character was fundamentally unimpressive to Asuka. It took her a long time, if at all, to appreciate his qualities. Much like many audiences in fact.

Originally posted on: 14-May-2005, 16:29 GMT

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Postby MavsWorld [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:08 pm

This is the core of her complaint abut Shinji, when all's said and done:

Asuka:
You really think you understand me!? You think that you can help me?
That is so ARROGANT! You couldn't possibly understand me!!

- even Instrumentality cannot fashion a true meeting of minds here.


Imo she doesn't want someone to understand her but to love her. Also not being understood is one of her chief lines of defence as if she is not understood then she believes she cannot be hurt again. All the people she has opened up to seem to have hurt her. In a way she also has the hedgehog syndrone.

Yet it is clear that Shinji's character was fundamentally unimpressive to Asuka. It took her a long time, if at all, to appreciate his qualities. Much like many audiences in fact.


I'm not saying that it wasn't I am just saying she saw potential and had hopes.

Originally posted on: 14-May-2005, 17:37 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:08 pm

@MavsWorld

Yes, she is a spiky little hedgehog. She has a shell that allows her to function day-to-day at arm's length from other people - and I don't see anyone in the series treating her as other than at that face value, or showing that they understood what was going on behind the fa%?Dade.

In the section I quoted, I think she is (as necessitated by Complementation) being completely honest - and that understanding is what she wants; because from someone who has made the sincere effort to achieve understanding will come sympathy, and from sympathy, love, the love that she needs so desperately. That at least is my own relationship with Asuka - when I realised that I could understand her plight in terms of my own far milder experiences, but for her redoubled and in spades, and what I had felt, that was when my heart went out to her.

Originally posted on: 14-May-2005, 18:14 GMT

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Postby OMF [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:08 pm

Mr. Tines wrote:Ep 15, she accepted an invitation from a medical student - a friend of Hikari's older sister and by implication, someone quite a few years older than herself, though not as old as Kaji. And she realised early on that that was a mistake.


Are you sure he was this much older? Is this info in the series?

Originally posted on: 14-May-2005, 19:16 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:08 pm

OMF wrote:Are you sure he was this much older? Is this info in the series?



From the LTP for ep#15
Hikari: Then, I have a favor to ask you.

Asuka: What is it?

Hikari: I mean..

Asuka: Oh! A date?

Hikari: It's a friend of my sister Kodama.
He said: "You must introduce her to me!"
Please!

# Hikari's elder sister is named Kodama.
and
Misato: Go to bed right now, because you have a date tomorrow.

TV: Yet, I still love...

Asuka: Yeah, with an MD student.
Oh, I've got it. Hey, can I use that? Your lavender perfume.
I'm not sure of the details of the Japanese education system, and what the precise degree the guy is studying for in the original, but the implication seems to be that he's at least college age, and probably in his early 20s (i.e. at least as old as the bridge bunnies, possibly a year or two older.)

There was more discussion on this subject here

http://www.animenation.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=166558

Originally posted on: 14-May-2005, 19:30 GMT

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Postby Lastie [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:08 pm

... analysis of these scenes degenerates into nothing but opinion versus opinion.



I fear this is why Eva has been debated over by its fans for almost ten years, and they will probably still be debating ten years from now. And twenty. And thirty.

On a different note this thread is becoming quite interesting, it's amazing how different people can see different things from the same scene/quote/facial expression.

Originally posted on: 14-May-2005, 19:52 GMT

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Postby Joeshie [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:08 pm

Lastie wrote:I fear this is why Eva has been debated over by its fans for almost ten years, and they will probably still be debating ten years from now. And twenty. And thirty.



Of course, this reason is why Evangelion continues to be one of the most popular and widely discussed animes. And it is also the reason why people will remember Evangelion 10 or 20 years down the road.

Originally posted on: 14-May-2005, 19:54 GMT

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Postby Lastie [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:09 pm

Of course, this reason is why Evangelion continues to be one of the most popular and widely discussed animes. And it is also the reason why people will remember Evangelion 10 or 20 years down the road.



I sense Anno's work behind this. Damn he's smart ...

Take note folks; from the 101 Ways to Make Sure You're TV series Never Dies:

34) Only answer half the questions raised at the beginning, and write a load more at the end. Make your characters complex, and leave everything about them down to interpretation. Leave the audience wondering if they've learnt from the whole experience. Think up a last line that refers to an incident almost entirely unconnected to the end scene. Write Neon Genesis Evangelion.

I love this anime really. Image

Originally posted on: 15-May-2005, 08:07 GMT

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Postby Joeshie [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:09 pm

Lastie wrote:I sense Anno's work behind this. Damn he's smart ...



If Anno had known how popular and long-lasting Evangelion would have been, I sometimes wonder if he would have made it any differently. I know that Anno doesn't like having hoards of fans asking him the answers to the various riddles of Evangelion.

Originally posted on: 15-May-2005, 08:09 GMT

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Postby Lastie [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:09 pm

I know that Anno doesn't like having hoards of fans asking him the answers to the various riddles of Evangelion.



It's only a matter of time until he cracks and publishes what we've all been waiting for: NGE Explained Completely: EVERYTHING ANSWERED! NO QUESTION LEFT REMAINING! JUST AS YOU WANTED! NOW GET A LIFE!, by Hideaki Anno. Lets keep the pressure up folks.

Originally posted on: 15-May-2005, 08:12 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:09 pm

Lastie wrote:On a different note this thread is becoming quite interesting, it's amazing how different people can see different things from the same scene/quote/facial expression.



Because the characters are not familiar stereotypes, and a lot of the development is implied rather than stated outright, the viewer simply has to fill in the gaps for verself - and the obvious source for filling gaps will be ver own experience, regrets, hopes and desires. In that respect Eva is like a mirror; and as different people look into it they see different things.

Originally posted on: 15-May-2005, 08:18 GMT

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Postby Lastie [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:09 pm

Evangelion is a window into your soul ...

Interesting.

Originally posted on: 15-May-2005, 08:20 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:09 pm

Lastie wrote:Evangelion is a window into your soul ...



That's a much more succinct way of putting it, I guess.

Part of its fascination is that you can end up accepting ownership of the various traumata suffered by the cast, and their effects. I guess that Anno's agenda was that he could do this for himself through the series; and in doing so, he pretty much toured the darker side of the human condition to more lasting effect for the on-going audience. And as a side effect, set things up so that which pilots and relationship the viewer supports is likely to depend crucially on exactly what it was that troubled ver particular childhood.

Image in context here.

Originally posted on: 15-May-2005, 08:43 GMT

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:09 pm

Mr. Tines wrote:The minimum requirement? That he be a pilot, an insider, one of the elite like herself, so there can be any hope of having common ground between them.



Well, Kaji isn't a pilot. I'm not sure if you meant that exactly as I read it, but if you did, you just defeated your own argument.

Between her childhood as a NERV insider, and being precocious enough to have graduated about a decade earlier than the norm, the typical schoolkid is going to be in a different world to her, socially and intellectually; even before we get onto the disconnects due to differences in cultural background. They might be useful to her if she were after a bit of rough, but no more.

Maybe, maybe not. It's emotional maturity that is the most important, not intellectual maturity, and Asuka has no more of that than your average 14-year-old, and possibly just a little less.

Asuka:
You really think you understand me!? You think that you can help me?
That is so ARROGANT! You couldn't possibly understand me!!
- even Instrumentality cannot fashion a true meeting of minds here.


I'm sure I've said things like that to those who love me the best. And much, much worse, too. I don't need to know you well to be certain that you have, also. The human experience does not vary quite that much. We've all been hurt bad, and said things we didn't mean.

Cite? her complaints about him in Instrumentality, such as the above, give an idea of what she had been hoping for.

As the audience, we have privileged information that she doesn't (until Complementation) about what makes Shinji tick - which of the various Shinjis do you take as the fundamental one here? The "try not to cause any offense", "Hai!" and "Gomen." persona that gets Asuka all Revelation 3:16 on his case? That one is his lack of self-confidence personified.

The other Shinjis we see aren't nearly as nice.


I don't think it's ever safe to trust that what a person complains about when they are angry is what they are really upset about. She isn't old enough, savvy enough, or mature enough to be able to say what she really means. My opinion is that what she really means is "Shinji, you need to love yourself if you want to love me, or to be loved back."

Ep 15, she accepted an invitation from a medical student - a friend of Hikari's older sister and by implication, someone quite a few years older than herself, though not as old as Kaji. And she realised early on that that was a mistake.

My interpretation of that scene was that she realised it was a mistake because he was not the one her heart was really pining for.

Mr Tines wrote:Quote: Originally Posted by Lastie Evangelion is a window into your soul ...

That's a much more succinct way of putting it, I guess.

Part of its fascination is that you can end up accepting ownership of the various traumata suffered by the cast, and their effects. I guess that Anno's agenda was that he could do this for himself through the series; and in doing so, he pretty much toured the darker side of the human condition to more lasting effect for the on-going audience. And as a side effect, set things up so that which pilots and relationship the viewer supports is likely to depend crucially on exactly what it was that troubled ver particular childhood.

I agree. I am only trying to lay out my own particular views on the Shinji/Asuka relatinship here, not to lay out a dogma which all should follow without question.

Originally posted on: 14-May-2005, 23:07 GMT

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Postby MavsWorld [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:09 pm

Well everything I was going to say and a lot more has just been said by Soluzar.

I feel sorry for Anno, he created Evangelion to me gives the message to overcome depression and problems, get out there and live life while in actual fact it just created more clossetted people.

I agree this topic is great. Viva la Asuka X Shinji Image

Well I saw this pic the other day and this topic reminded me of it so here is what could have been, Mrs Asuka Ikari Image
Image

Originally posted on: 14-May-2005, 23:21 GMT

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:10 pm

MavsWorld wrote:Well everything I was going to say and a lot more has just been said by Soluzar.



Well, you did the same for me, when you posted this:

MavsWorld wrote:Does anything come of this at all? Nope, imo this is just Asuka trying to kid herself into thinking she doesn't want anyone in particular and is independent. It doesn't work and she finds the date boring showing she can't find someone normal worthy of her.
Quote: Originally Posted by Mr Tines
Asuka: A dull boy! That's the great Third Children? I'm disappointed!
Asuka: Again! Your face is always gloomy in the morning.
Asuka: Why was a boy like him ever selected as a pilot?
Shinji & Asuka: Why do I have to co-operate with this kind of person?!
Asuka: Oh, no! That's pitiful! A tamed man is the worst type!
Asuka: What a boring boy...
Asuka : Grr... You're always begging. Do you really think you're wrong?
Asuka : Shinji, it seems you apologize as a conditioned reflex to avoid
being scolded.
Asuka : Just like that. Basically, you're too self-punishing.
Asuka: That one is the dullest. Also an idiot. He doesn't know how to get along with other people.
Asuka : He spent an entire month dissolved inside Eva and he's
already back to his old ways.
Asuka : After all, I lost... and to the likes of you.

Asuka was always less than awestruck by the quiet, introverted boy she found was piloting Eva Unit-01.



If she really wanted to insult and hurt him why would she tell him where he is going wrong towards her and insult something more personal to him. She doesn't insult his piloting or anywhere that will hurt him here, she just points out the parts where towards her he is going wrong. Everything she says there could be solved with more confidence towards her.

In the end, this all boils down to, as Mr. Tines has stated, what part of your own mind is reflected in the mirror that is Evangelion. I'm just glad that a few people, like yourself, share my experience and my views.

I'm never going to win over Mr. TInes, and nor would I wish to. He is just as likely to have the better analysis as I am.

Originally posted on: 14-May-2005, 23:39 GMT

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Postby OMF [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:10 pm

MavsWorld wrote:Well I saw this pic the other day and this topic reminded me of it so here is what could have been, Mrs Asuka Ikari Image
Image



No, no, no! Complete Fantasy!

It can only be Mr. Shinji Souryu Zepplin! Image

Originally posted on: 14-May-2005, 23:49 GMT

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Postby MavsWorld [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:10 pm

Lol, Mr/Mrs Shinji Souryu Zepplin does sound better Image Hooray for multiple opinions.

Originally posted on: 15-May-2005, 00:36 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:10 pm

Soluzar wrote:Well, Kaji isn't a pilot. I'm not sure if you meant that exactly as I read it, but if you did, you just defeated your own argument.



That is why I had carefully specified the requirement in the context of boys of her own age. Kaji is an insider, and is familiar with the regimen she lives under; but the only way you get that status at Asuka's age is as a pilot.

Soluzar wrote:Maybe, maybe not. It's emotional maturity that is the most important, not intellectual maturity, and Asuka has no more of that than your average 14-year-old, and possibly just a little less.



At this point, I confess, I am projecting an exaggerated form of my own experiences onto Asuka. Lack of emotional maturity if anything worsens the mismatch between the different levels of sophistication in the things that preoccupy.

It colours my interpretation of the "You couldn't possibly understand me!!" line too. This is drawn from Complementation, where (by example of Misato's inability to withhold the memory of her week abed with Kaji) I make the assumption that we are getting the unvarnished truth of the unspoken intentions in its full brutality because all participating minds are now joined. Whether she is honestly mistaken is beside the point.

Soluzar wrote:I'm sure I've said things like that to those who love me the best. And much, much worse, too. I don't need to know you well to be certain that you have, also. The human experience does not vary quite that much. We've all been hurt bad, and said things we didn't mean.



My relationship history has been, shall we say, anomalous. The "misunderstood" diatribe was always the subject of self-pitying (and latterly alcohol-fueled) maudlin monologues.

EDIT - I really should stop and go to bed before midnight, rather than keep on posting...

I always used to refer to those monologues as "dumping core" - laying all my issues on whatever audience I had to damn well make them understand. The internet makes doing that sort of thing once more all too easy.

Originally posted on: 15-May-2005, 00:43 GMT

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Postby OMF [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:10 pm

MavsWorld wrote:Well here is my tuppence. I always got the impression that Asuka and Shinji both wanted a relationship with each other but neither could communicate as they are both so different and also they both want different things in each other. To me Shinji wants to be someone who can protect as can be seen with Rei, that's why he doesn't want her imo along with all the incest things. When he meets Asuka she includes him, partly to show off and she is confident, what he wants to be. He continues to smile whenever to him she seems confident or wants to protect her honour. Also for a while she seems to draw out quite a lot of good from Shinji, he does become more confident, however as he does she becomes jealous. It seems to me he becomes confident in all the areas but the one that to Asuka really matters and that is the one that concerns her. Towards her he never gains that confidence and imo she ups the heat of her insults to try and push him into that confidence as has happened before. However she misjudges and destroys this confidence. Imo that is one of the reasons why he strangles her, he feels betrayed and confused.
Asuka like Shinji imo wants what she wish she was, she wants the super cool confident brilliant pilot. Shinji as I said earlier starts to become this model however she has been betrayed too many times in her past by people who she idolised but never treated her how she wanted to be and Shinji in all this elevation still remains as clutsy to her. To me she seems afraid he will be like everyone else, what she wants in everything but to her, similar to Kaji who is all these great things but can only see her as a daughter/younger sister.



Wow. This comment was actually quite profound. I sort of missed it the first time around, but as I read it again, it's actually very neatly sums up most of my thinking on Shinji and Asuka as well.

MavsWorld wrote:To me Shinji wants to be someone who can protect as can be seen with Rei, that's why he doesn't want her imo along with all the incest things.


When you say this, do you mean he's looking for someone who can protect him, or someone who he can protect?
MavsWorld wrote:He continues to smile whenever to him she seems confident or wants to protect her honour.


Yes. I think Asuka's self-confidence is a source of inspiration for Shinji, something he looks up to a lot.
MavsWorld wrote:Towards her he never gains that confidence and imo she ups the heat of her insults to try and push him into that confidence as has happened before. However she misjudges and destroys this confidence.


I would also argue along these lines. Though she uses them to abase him, Asuka's comments do seem to have the aim of getting a rise out of Shinji. She may well be trying to get him to gain confidence, or simply expressing her disgust at his lack of it. It worked once at least, in episode #16.
MavsWorld wrote:Asuka like Shinji imo wants what she wish she was, she wants the super cool confident brilliant pilot.


This was my thinking on "Muteki na Shinji-sama" or "The Great Third Children". Asuka expected Shinji to be, like her, a pilot both inside and outside the cockpit.

Originally posted on: 15-May-2005, 00:46 GMT


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