Shinji and Asuka

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:05 pm

Shin-seiki wrote:I'd say you're mostly on the right track here, except for one thing: the trick to understanding what is going on here is that between cut "35" and "36", a sustantial ammount of time goes by "off camera" during which Asuka is getting more and more impatient and frustrated by the fact that Shinji is just sitting there, with his headphones on, and his head up his ***, completely failing to pick up on what she was implying by "we're all alone tonight"... She finally gets disgusted and stalks angrily into her room, taking her bed roll with her, and, to salvage her wounded pride, makes a sneering parting shot as to how it's "time for children to go to bed!"



You know what? I was certain that this was the case, but I was lacking for a way to prove it, and I figured, better to just post what I'm sure of. It seems certain to me that you are correct, but is there any direct evidence for this? There doesn't need to be, it makes perfect sense to me, in any case.

Reichu wrote:Okay, it's only one frame, but when I first stumbled upon it I totally cracked up. Asuka: "Hmm, are my flirtations working? Let's check..."

Wow! That's just amazing. I hadn't noticed that one shot, just yet, but I'm just about to go and check for it now.

Are there any illumininating comments on the original script that might add to these scenes? I'm looking forward to the #09 commentary, I must say.

Digitalex wrote:I totally agree and caught that Walls of Jericho metaphor when I first watched it. I also believe that Asuka was giving Shinji multiple chances to be a man and stake his claim.



While I'm sure somebody probably picked up on the "Jericho" thing before now, I've not seen it posted myself, before now. I've had a a bee in my bonnet for months now, about doing a whole Asuka/Shinji debate, but it took me this long to get around to it. I think OMF is really the one responsible. While I admire his tireless energy in discussing this subject, without him to disagree with, I might never have gotten around to posting this screenshot breakdown. I'm not done yet. I plan on covering several more key scenes before I am finished.

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 03:06 GMT

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Postby OMF [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:05 pm

Soluzar wrote:Shinji, as can plainly be seen in screenshot thirty-eight, looks devastated, the look on his face says more than words ever could.


Hmmmm...? -_^ I'd say confusion, rather than devestation, better decribes his expression in this paticular cut. Note his eyebrows. Perhaps a shade of disappointment.

Soluzar wrote:Misato has gone out, leaving the two Children alone. When Asuka realises this, in screenshot number thirty-five, she makes what appears, any way you look at it, to be an extremely suggestive comment to Shinji. In my mind, that statement, coupled with the tone of voice, and body language of its delivery, translates directly to "lets make out!"

...she is challenging him to prove her wrong, and break down the walls of Jericho so that they can get sweaty together.


This is an explanation I can accept. It resolves the confusing disparity between her comments in (35) and (39) quite well. But do you really think Asuka expected him to burst through the futon in the middle of the night? Something tells me death really would have awaited him if he'd tried. Or is Asuka truely that lecherous?

Soluzar wrote:When the camera cuts back to Shinji, his eyes are clearly angled downwards, towards the enticing cleavage that Asuka has carefully displayed for him.


We know YOU weren't reading the subtitles Shinji! Image
Soluzar wrote:Then watch the episode, just in case you suspect me of altering the material to suit my own theories.


Soluzar! Would I suspect you of doing anything untoward in your presentation of the facts. Image

Shin-seiki wrote:I'd say you're mostly on the right track here, except for one thing: the trick to understanding what is going on here is that between cut "35" and "36", a sustantial ammount of time goes by "off camera" during which Asuka is getting more and more impatient and frustrated by the fact that Shinji is just sitting there, with his headphones on, and his head up his ***, completely failing to pick up on what she was implying by "we're all alone tonight"...


I don't think so. The audio track on Shinji's SDAT passes seamlessly through the transition between (35) and (36). I'm pretty sure they happen instantaniously after each other.

Now. Back to work.
*gathers dark powers*

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 03:25 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:06 pm

OMF wrote:I don't think so. The audio track on Shinji's SDAT passes seamlessly through the transition between (35) and (36). I'm pretty sure they happen instantaniously after each other.

Oh, fer crying out loud! That's a pretty trivial and immaterial detail upon which to dismiss that idea. Asuka's sudden (and otherwise inexplicable) change of demeanor makes infinitely more sense if you allow for a some time to go by between those two cuts. As we've seen in my examination of #23, Anno is quite capable of utilizing "ellipsis" as a narrative technique (i.e having something crucial happen "off camera", and leave it to the audience to figure out what actually happened by carefully reading the characters' subsequent behavior...)
Soluzar wrote:You know what? I was certain that this was the case, but I was lacking for a way to prove it, and I figured, better to just post what I'm sure of. It seems certain to me that you are correct, but is there any direct evidence for this? There doesn't need to be, it makes perfect sense to me, in any case.

There's no direct evidence, but as for indirect evidence, well, allow me some time to pull some relevant screencaps Image

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 03:39 GMT

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Postby OMF [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:06 pm

I dunno.... the SDAT doesn't skip a beat. Soluzar explanation seems to fit the bill, if you accept Asuka to be that overestimating of Shinji's nerve. The cuts are directly after one another, and while Anno is subtle, I don't think he ever uses time dilation as a narritive technique anywhere else.

Soluzar's explanation also fits well with Asuka's "You won't do anything" shot in 22', where she is shown alone in the side room, dejected, because Shinji has failed to burst through the door, rose in teeth, grinning madly. Wow. Asuka really was expecting a lot from "The Great Third Children" Image

EDIT:
It's looking like I'm going to have to go the full hog and do ALL of the 26' juicy stuff from groofy grin to gleeful throttle. This may take longer than anticipated.

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 03:49 GMT

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:06 pm

Shin-seiki wrote:Oh, fer crying out loud! That's a pretty trivial and immaterial detail upon which to dismiss that idea. Asuka's sudden (and otherwise inexplicable) change of demeanor makes infinitely more sense if you allow for a some time to go by between those two cuts. As we've seen in my examination of #23, Anno is quite capable of utilizing "ellipsis" as a narative technique (i.e having something crucial happen "off camera", and leave it to the audience to figure out what actually happened by carefully reading the characters' subsequent behavior...)




Believe me, as I wrote the above post, I was considering stating that "time passes" between those two cuts. I think it's the only way of explaining how she goes from "Let's make out!" to "Come and get me if you dare, Third, but be a man about it, for God's sake!". The quality of the narrative would undoubtedly have been improved for a quick fade to black between the two cuts, but as it stands, it's still
pretty clear to me that this is what happened.

OMF wrote:I dunno.... the SDAT doesn't skip a beat. Soluzar explanation seems to fit the bill, if you accept Asuka to be that overestimating of Shinji's nerve. The cuts are directly after one another, and while Anno is subtle, I don't think he ever uses time dilation as a narritive technique anywhere else.

Soluzar's explanation also fits well with Asuka's "You won't do anything" shot in 22', where she is shown alone in the side room, dejected, because Shinji has failed to burst through the door, rose in teeth, grinning madly. Wow. Asuka really was expecting a lot from "The Great Third Children"



There is no "Soluzar's explanation" or "Shin-Seiki's explanation" - the two are as one. It is after sitting and waiting for Shinji to make his move while they were both in the communal area that Asuka took her futon through to the other room, and issued her challenge.

I'm not sure she expected her challenge to be met, but she was hoping, I think. The only reason that I did not include the notion of some "off-screen" time passing in my original analysis was because I couldn't be certain. I have always believed in that period of "off-screen" time myself. The two theories are not contradictory, they are both part of a greater whole.

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 03:52 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:06 pm

Soluzar wrote:Are there any illumininating comments on the original script that might add to these scenes? I'm looking forward to the #09 commentary, I must say.



Well, I suppose there's no reason why I couldn't go and process the script content for these relevant Shinji/Asuka scenes now... It delays episode #05, of course, but it's all work I'd end up doing eventually anyway, so it doesn't really matter Image. Will have to wait until next week after I attend to some critical obligations, though, but since this topic is so hawt right now, I think we'd all benefit from seeing what the script says. (I'm getting especially curious about any yummy details included in the P3II sequence...)

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 06:27 GMT

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:06 pm

Reichu wrote:Well, I suppose there's no reason why I couldn't go and process the script content for these relevant Shinji/Asuka scenes now... It delays episode #05, of course, but it's all work I'd end up doing eventually anyway, so it doesn't really matter Image. Will have to wait until next week after I attend to some critical obligations, though, but since this topic is so hawt right now, I think we'd all benefit from seeing what the script says. (I'm getting especially curious about any yummy details included in the P3II sequence...)



I'm glad you see it this way. It's not as though it's going to be wasted effort. Once it has been translated, it remains translated. I'd be quite thrilled to gain access to any additional data regarding this topic.

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 15:13 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:06 pm

Soluzar wrote:As do I, but I would not accept that this was the feeling at work in this scene. Asuka has never been the one chosen child - she was always one among a minimum of three, possibly to be more later.



There's a difference between knowing something like that in an abstract and intellectual fashion, and having your nose rubbed in it. Similarly with being the best.

Until a few weeks previously, the First was all the competition she knew she had; and until but days before, First and Third were both far away people who didn't actually trouble the surface of her life. And now, here she is, no longer the sole centre of attention from the adults around, out of her familiar surroundings, and rejected.

Soluzar wrote:but Hikari seems very clear about what has upset the Second Children.



Well, he was the one who was being shown to be clumsy, and ruining Asuka's gig - and he has the attitude that attracts condemnation. It also doesn't seem plausible under the circumstances for Hikari to blame either Rei for being helpful or Misato for being pragmatic.

Soluzar wrote:She would never admit it openly, not to herself, much less to him, but she is drawn to this boy.



As I've noted before, there aren't any other boys of her own age that meet her absolute minimum requirement to be noticed. She desperately desires someone who will care for her - and all she gets is Shinji.

Alas, all her attempts to make the best of a bad situation make things worse, because it is never the Shinji-that-is that she tried to attract, but the pilot of her dreams who could sweep her off her feet.

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 19:35 GMT

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Postby TACHIKOMA [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:06 pm

Maybe, sense Asuka always acts very self defensive, she may have let her guard down and kiss Shinji to maybe feel the touch of another to feel that at least there is some one out there that may care that she at least exist. At the end of the kiss (or the middle of it) she may have felt that that act of a kiss may have been an act of weakness so she quickly reacted. This is my thought.

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 22:14 GMT

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Postby OMF [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:06 pm

TACHIKOMA wrote:Maybe, sense Asuka always acts very self defensive, she may have let her guard down and kiss Shinji to maybe feel the touch of another to feel that at least there is some one out there that may care that she at least exist. At the end of the kiss (or the middle of it) she may have felt that that act of a kiss may have been an act of weakness so she quickly reacted. This is my thought.


The kiss certainly could be viewed as an act of "weakness" in one sence. Asuka let down all of her defences and confided her affections to him most intimately. She really opened up and got nothing for it. She likely berated herself endlessly for being so "stupid" as to kiss the donkan.

Originally posted on: 13-May-2005, 13:38 GMT

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Postby MavsWorld [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:07 pm

Well here is my tuppence. I always got the impression that Asuka and Shinji both wanted a relationship with each other but neither could communicate as they are both so different and also they both want different things in each other. To me Shinji wants to be someone who can protect as can be seen with Rei, that's why he doesn't want her imo along with all the incest things. When he meets Asuka she includes him, partly to show off and she is confident, what he wants to be. He continues to smile whenever to him she seems confident or wants to protect her honour. Also for a while she seems to draw out quite a lot of good from Shinji, he does become more confident, however as he does she becomes jealous. It seems to me he becomes confident in all the areas but the one that to Asuka really matters and that is the one that concerns her. Towards her he never gains that confidence and imo she ups the heat of her insults to try and push him into that confidence as has happened before. However she misjudges and destroys this confidence. Imo that is one of the reasons why he strangles her, he feels betrayed and confused.
Asuka like Shinji imo wants what she wish she was, she wants the super cool confident brilliant pilot. Shinji as I said earlier starts to become this model however she has been betrayed too many times in her past by people who she idolised but never treated her how she wanted to be and Shinji in all this elevation still remains as clutsy to her. To me she seems afraid he will be like everyone else, what she wants in everything but to her, similar to Kaji who is all these great things but can only see her as a daughter/younger sister.

On what has been being discussed in the eps I agree with Soluzar, I think Hikari realises Asuka's true feelings and that she is challenging Shinji to try and build up his confidence and to claim her caveman style so to speak.

Edit: and just because Asuka is so cool
Image

Originally posted on: 13-May-2005, 15:21 GMT

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Postby Goldarmy [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:07 pm

Soluzar wrote:In screenshots seven to nine, she delights in showing off her Evangelion to Shinji - this, to me is significant, because it reveals what a huge part of her self-worth is tied up in her identity as an Eva pilot.


Soluzar wrote:The next episode #09 "Both of You, Dance Like You Want to Win" has a scene at the start, in the school yard, which many see as a sign that Asuka has no interest in, or even downright hostility towards Shinji.


I have come into a conclusion that Asuka's attempts to get a reaction from Shinji has threefold reason. First reason can be explained as 'She is Asuka Langley Souryuu Great Pilot of Evangelion Unit 02. Hail the Second Child Defender of the Earth...'. Second Piloting is vital to Asuka, it defines her to such an extent that she has come to define piloting. She puts her own standarts for this elite position. Meeting with other two, who look as if they have just been dragged from street, is shock for her and taint for profession. She therefore tries to reconcile her image about pilots role with Shinji, since Rei redefines the word 'indifference'. Third is 'The Anatomy of a Wuss-Boy' which is Asuka's try to find what is he Great Shinji-sama or Pathethic Third Child, pilot or a jester of the fools.


Soluzar wrote:Although I am concentrating solely on the Asuka & Shinji relationship in these posts, It is my contention that Kaji is a surrogate father to both Shinji and Asuka, in the same way that Misato is their surrogate mother. Leaving aside the entertaingin notion that this would, in fact, make any Asuka & Shinji relationship incestuous, from a certain point of view, it fits nicely, because you could then say that where Shinji has the Oedipus complex, Asuka has the Elektra complex. Nice symmetry, if nothing else. Not, however, strictly germane to the topic at hand.



It is a bit ironic that this comes before the comment about barking. First and foremost Kaji isn't a father figure but a boyfriend for Asuka (a role he really wants to get himself out of), she didn't feel the absence of a father the same way Shinji did. While Misato may be under the delusion that she is a surrogate mother, she isn't and not for her attempt to get into her children's pants(not that it helps anyway). In Shinji's eyes she is a cheery yet irresponsible babysitter or big sister and a beatiful woman, it is hard for him to have someone as a mother figure who depends on him so many ways. Likewise for Asuka whatever care she got from her grandmother and stepmother is far better to fill the need of a mother than the alcoholic 14 year old girl in a 30 year old body. only Kaji and Shinji part is right.

Soluzar wrote:On to the first battle of this episode we go. In this, Asuka's behaviour does seem, at first glance, somewhat hostile, but bear in mind that she is feeling competitive, after learning of Shinji's high synch ratio, and may be anxious to prove herself. Even what seems at first to be hostility may actually be affection in disguise from some people. There are two things I noticed about this sequence - firstly, despite her [i]apparent hostility towards Shinji, it is his approval that she seeks for cleaving the enemy in two, not Misato's, and secondly, with this level of desire to prove herself the best, may we finally lay to rest the concept that Asuka would be attracted to "muteki na Shinji-sama"?



I am not exactly an anti Asuka/Shinji shipper, but I am against the presentation of everything as a part of Asuka Shinji romance. This has scene nothing to do with affection, it is a pissing contest. It is Asuka's complaints about having a partner greener than grass and being a show-off for solely her own ego not Shinji's affection.
Soluzar wrote:The first sign of true affection, in my view, comes later on in this episode, when Misato suggests that it may be better to pair Shinji with Rei for the forthcoming mission. in screenshots twenty-five and twenty-six, Asuka's dismay is plain to see. Would you suggest that this dismay is simply due to the fact that she is not going to be the pilot selected for the operation? Partly it is. Would you say that this is the only reason she is upset? I would ask you if that is enough to make her flee the house, as she does in screenshots twenty-seven and twenty-eight. I would also point out that if you do think this, then Hikari Horaki does not agree.


Yes that is more than enough to make her flee from the room. Not only it was proved that she the great Asuka was the one at fault, she isn't going to be a pilot for the operation. That is a big bruise for her ego. Even if the roles were reversed, if after complaining that Rei can't keep up to her it was proven to her with Shinji and Rei's performance that she is at fault, she would flee the room.
Soluzar wrote:Hikari seems to think that Asuka is really hurt by the prospect that Shinji might reject her, or something along those lines. Does it seem so far-fetched to believe this, to you? Not to me.
While Hikari doesn't really understand Asuka -though she can't be expected to-, we as audience could see that it is rejection as a pilot that matters to Asuka not Shinji.
[QUOTE=Soluzar]While, in screenshot thirty-three, Asuka does come up with some phoney reason why she has to "prove herself", in reality, I think that at some point during the offscreen time between now and the first battle of this episode, she's found just a little fondness in her heart for the Third Children



She is just covering the fact that piloting is her only reason of existence. This scene negates the notion that "there can be nothing between these two", but it isn't a declairation of love either.

Soluzar wrote:Oh, and one more thing... in screenshot thirty-four, did you notice how pleased Shinji looks? Did you ever wonder why? I'll let you draw your own conclusions.


Well this is what Asuka wants from Shinji, pure admiration. Did she truly enjoy it at that moment?

-So which flame warrior are you Goldarmy?
-Paratrooper

Originally posted on: 13-May-2005, 22:40 GMT

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Postby Digitalex [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:07 pm

Goldarmy wrote:She is just covering the fact that piloting is her only reason of existence. This scene negates the notion that "there can be nothing between these two", but it isn't a declairation of love either.



I agree with that. It doesn't go out and scream love but it does set the tone that there is some feelings brewing within Asuka towards Shinji, especially when Hikari yells at Shinji to go apologize. She herself could easily have chased down Asuka since she is considered a good friend.

Well this is what Asuka wants from Shinji, pure admiration. Did she truly enjoy it at that moment?



I watched that scene again and Asuka was talking about honoring herself in that moment. Shinji smiling in admiration wasn't something she expected or noticed in my opinion. I think the point was Shinji began seeing a little more into Asuka's personality and he liked what he saw.

Originally posted on: 14-May-2005, 01:39 GMT

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:07 pm

Goldarmy wrote:Quote: Originally Posted by Soluzar Although I am concentrating solely on the Asuka & Shinji relationship in these posts, It is my contention that Kaji is a surrogate father to both Shinji and Asuka, in the same way that Misato is their surrogate mother. Leaving aside the entertaingin notion that this would, in fact, make any Asuka & Shinji relationship incestuous, from a certain point of view, it fits nicely, because you could then say that where Shinji has the Oedipus complex, Asuka has the Elektra complex. Nice symmetry, if nothing else. Not, however, strictly germane to the topic at hand.


It is a bit ironic that this comes before the comment about barking. First and foremost Kaji isn't a father figure but a boyfriend for Asuka (a role he really wants to get himself out of), she didn't feel the absence of a father the same way Shinji did. While Misato may be under the delusion that she is a surrogate mother, she isn't and not for her attempt to get into her children's pants(not that it helps anyway). In Shinji's eyes she is a cheery yet irresponsible babysitter or big sister and a beatiful woman, it is hard for him to have someone as a mother figure who depends on him so many ways. Likewise for Asuka whatever care she got from her grandmother and stepmother is far better to fill the need of a mother than the alcoholic 14 year old girl in a 30 year old body. only Kaji and Shinji part is right.

There is no irony. You have woefully misunderstood the concepts at work in that particular part of my analysis. With regards to the rest of your issues with my analysis and my conclusions, I am thoroughly satisfied with my work, and do not feel the need to defend my analysis further, especially since beyond the point which I have already reached, analysis of these scenes degenerates into nothing but opinion versus opinion.

All that having been said, I feel that I must draw your attention to the flaws in your argument. Kaji is not, and never could be a boyfriend to Asuka. He does not wish to be, and therefore he is not. The Elektra complex is the female counter part to the Oedipus complex, in other words, the name given to the phase that some girls go through where they become atracted to their father. My point is that since Kaji is not a viable target for Asukas's romantic advances, and he is an older man, then he might as well be a father-substitute for Asuka. The fact that she does not see him as a father figure is immaterial; Those in the grip of abnormal psychological states are frequently unaware of the existance of said state, due to the loss of the critical faculty. The fact that she was not deprived of her father is also immaterial, since it is often a development of the Oedipus/Elektra complex that the child will realise that their parent is not an acceptable partner, but will go on to seek other older, and somewhat "parental" figures as sexual partners, often subconsciously.

With regard to the notion that Shinji doesn't see Misato as a surrogate mother, that's a whole other thread in itself, but I must say that I believe you are quite wrong. In addition to which, by picking upon this small and insignificant part of my work, which I could just as easily have left out, but for my need to provoke a cheap laugh, you are perhaps making a straw man.

I am not exactly an anti Asuka/Shinji shipper, but I am against the presentation of everything as a part of Asuka Shinji romance. This has scene nothing to do with affection, it is a pissing contest. It is Asuka's complaints about having a partner greener than grass and being a show-off for solely her own ego not Shinji's affection.



Tough. This show is primarily about the Asuka/Shinji relationship. Accept it, move on, and grow as a person in the process. :-P

OMF wrote:The kiss certainly could be viewed as an act of "weakness" in one sence. Asuka let down all of her defences and confided her affections to him most intimately. She really opened up and got nothing for it. She likely berated herself endlessly for being so "stupid" as to kiss the donkan.



I know you've seen the extended mind-rape scene, and I know you know that what she said, and what she was thinking were quite different. She was angry, to my way of thinking, only because Shinji did not reciprocate. It does not advance the debate to any noticable degree when people act disingenuous.

Mr. Tines wrote:Well, he was the one who was being shown to be clumsy, and ruining Asuka's gig - and he has the attitude that attracts condemnation. It also doesn't seem plausible under the circumstances for Hikari to blame either Rei for being helpful or Misato for being pragmatic.


Watch the scene again. I think Asuka may have actually been the first one to make a miss-step.

As I've noted before, there aren't any other boys of her own age that meet her absolute minimum requirement to be noticed. She desperately desires someone who will care for her - and all she gets is Shinji.


As I would note now, she has an entire school available to her, in every sense of the word. What exactly do you believe these requirements to be? She has rejected other partners in the course of the anime.

Alas, all her attempts to make the best of a bad situation make things worse, because it is never the Shinji-that-is that she tried to attract, but the pilot of her dreams who could sweep her off her feet.


Cite? I admit that she would rather Shinji be somewhat more proactive about wooing her, but I see no clear indication that she is unhappy with the fundamental person that he is. Just that she feels he needs more self-confidance.

Originally posted on: 14-May-2005, 01:56 GMT

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Postby RyoTD [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:07 pm

Soluzar wrote:Watch the scene again. I think Asuka may have actually been the first one to make a miss-step.



Indeed she does. It only shows for a split second, but you can clearly see that Asuka's scoreboard-thingy says "Error" before Shinji's does.

Originally posted on: 14-May-2005, 02:28 GMT

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Postby Magami No ER [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:07 pm

That was actually said by the Death & Rebirth and EoE commentary, one of their very actual information that's true.

Originally posted on: 14-May-2005, 02:55 GMT

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Postby Joeshie [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:07 pm

Mr. Tines wrote:As I've noted before, there aren't any other boys of her own age that meet her absolute minimum requirement to be noticed. She desperately desires someone who will care for her - and all she gets is Shinji.



Yet, she does go out on a date with another boy, does she not? This shows that Asuka is indeed interested in other boys and does not restrict them to being only pilots. The simple fact that she accepted a date with a non-pilot means that she is not restricting herself to only pilots. Other than being a pilot, I would not know of any other absolute minimum requirement that you would be refering to.

Originally posted on: 14-May-2005, 03:01 GMT

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Postby OMF [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:07 pm

Soluzar wrote:I know you've seen the extended mind-rape scene, and I know you know that what she said, and what she was thinking were quite different. She was angry, to my way of thinking, only because Shinji did not reciprocate.


Yes that's exactly what I meant. He didn't respond in any way, and after she so longingly kissed him. She's very upset by this, and her thoughts of the incident gradually sour to anger as time goes by.

Soluzar wrote:Cite? I admit that she would rather Shinji be somewhat more proactive about wooing her, but I see no clear indication that she is unhappy with the fundamental person that he is. Just that she feels he needs more self-confidance.


Asuka: A dull boy! That's the great Third Children? I'm disappointed!
Asuka: Again! Your face is always gloomy in the morning.
Asuka: Why was a boy like him ever selected as a pilot?
Shinji & Asuka: Why do I have to co-operate with this kind of person?!
Asuka: Oh, no! That's pitiful! A tamed man is the worst type!
Asuka: What a boring boy...
Asuka : Grr... You're always begging. Do you really think you're wrong?
Asuka : Shinji, it seems you apologize as a conditioned reflex to avoid
being scolded.
Asuka : Just like that. Basically, you're too self-punishing.
Asuka: That one is the dullest. Also an idiot. He doesn't know how to get along with other people.
Asuka : He spent an entire month dissolved inside Eva and he's
already back to his old ways.
Asuka : After all, I lost... and to the likes of you.

Asuka was always less than awestruck by the quiet, introverted boy she found was piloting Eva Unit-01.
Soluzar wrote:My point is that since Kaji is not a viable target for Asukas's romantic advances, and he is an older man, then he might as well be a father-substitute for Asuka.


Image Image So....so do you think someone can have sexual feelings for someone else and still consider them a father fig.....urk!
*is dragged offstage by bury stagehands*

Originally posted on: 14-May-2005, 03:31 GMT

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Postby MavsWorld [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:08 pm

And do you think people can commit rape and pretend the girl actually wants it. Humans can convince themselves of practically anything as has been shown many times in history.
Yet, she does go out on a date with another boy, does she not? This shows that Asuka is indeed interested in other boys and does not restrict them to being only pilots. The simple fact that she accepted a date with a non-pilot means that she is not restricting herself to only pilots. Other than being a pilot, I would not know of any other absolute minimum requirement that you would be refering to.


Does anything come of this at all? Nope, imo this is just Asuka trying to kid herself into thinking she doesn't want anyone in particular and is independent. It doesn't work and she finds the date boring showing she can't find someone normal worthy of her.
Asuka: A dull boy! That's the great Third Children? I'm disappointed!
Asuka: Again! Your face is always gloomy in the morning.
Asuka: Why was a boy like him ever selected as a pilot?
Shinji & Asuka: Why do I have to co-operate with this kind of person?!
Asuka: Oh, no! That's pitiful! A tamed man is the worst type!
Asuka: What a boring boy...
Asuka : Grr... You're always begging. Do you really think you're wrong?
Asuka : Shinji, it seems you apologize as a conditioned reflex to avoid
being scolded.
Asuka : Just like that. Basically, you're too self-punishing.
Asuka: That one is the dullest. Also an idiot. He doesn't know how to get along with other people.
Asuka : He spent an entire month dissolved inside Eva and he's
already back to his old ways.
Asuka : After all, I lost... and to the likes of you.


Asuka was always less than awestruck by the quiet, introverted boy she found was piloting Eva Unit-01.


If she really wanted to insult and hurt him why would she tell him where he is going wrong towards her and insult something more personal to him. She doesn't insult his piloting or anywhere that will hurt him here, she just points out the parts where towards her he is going wrong. Everything she says there could be solved with more confidence towards her.

Originally posted on: 14-May-2005, 07:01 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:08 pm

Soluzar wrote:As I would note now, she has an entire school available to her, in every sense of the word. What exactly do you believe these requirements to be?



The minimum requirement? That he be a pilot, an insider, one of the elite like herself, so there can be any hope of having common ground between them.

Between her childhood as a NERV insider, and being precocious enough to have graduated about a decade earlier than the norm, the typical schoolkid is going to be in a different world to her, socially and intellectually; even before we get onto the disconnects due to differences in cultural background. They might be useful to her if she were after a bit of rough, but no more.

This is the core of her complaint about Shinji, when all's said and done:
Asuka:
You really think you understand me!? You think that you can help me?
That is so ARROGANT! You couldn't possibly understand me!!
- even Instrumentality cannot fashion a true meeting of minds here.

Soluzar wrote:Cite? I admit that she would rather Shinji be somewhat more proactive about wooing her, but I see no clear indication that she is unhappy with the fundamental person that he is. Just that she feels he needs more self-confidance.



Cite? her complaints about him in Instrumentality, such as the above, give an idea of what she had been hoping for.

As the audience, we have privileged information that she doesn't (until Complementation) about what makes Shinji tick - which of the various Shinjis do you take as the fundamental one here? The "try not to cause any offense", "Hai!" and "Gomen." persona that gets Asuka all Revelation 3:16 on his case? That one is his lack of self-confidence personified.

The other Shinjis we see aren't nearly as nice.

joeshie wrote:Yet, she does go out on a date with another boy, does she not?



Ep 15, she accepted an invitation from a medical student - a friend of Hikari's older sister and by implication, someone quite a few years older than herself, though not as old as Kaji. And she realised early on that that was a mistake.

Originally posted on: 14-May-2005, 16:29 GMT


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