NTE's interpretation of the characters

[ChrisTamv]

Long-haired Rei is one of the many things in the Rebuilds that make me question why the hell they would ever do it that way, because it undercuts literally THE core of ReiQ’s character (that she’s her own individual who just so happens to share a name and face with Rei2)

Agreed. I don't think Long - Haired Rei holding a doll of Tsubame is sufficient proof at all that she's any kind of Rei II / Q amalgamation. I think she's Rei II through and through.

[MsenjaKagami]

If the conversation ends with Shinji, though, I take it to mean that everything prior was indirectly about Shinji. Asuka's outburst is the result of some things that have been stewing, and I don't think bringing up Shinji at the end was some kind of garnish.

Sure yeah, but that just says more about Asuka than it does about Rei. My point was that you brought up this comparison between the elevator scenes as evidence that Rei's role in the story is reduced to being a plot device in Shinji's story in 2.0 (which y'know what, I'm not even necessarily 100% disagreeing with you on that) but what I'm trying to say is that this isn't really evidence for that claim. What Asuka is saying and what internal conflicts she's going through might be related to Shinji in this instance, yes, but Rei's is still mainly a self-reflection of her own understanding of her existence as the one Eva pilot who can't really be free of her bond to piloting, and how she can relate that to Asuka in her current issue of her right as Unit 02's pilot being stripped from her. Does Shinji play a bigger role in the scene than he did in the original? Yeah sure, 100%, and not even just from Asuka's perspective, who's clearly more actively interested in him while Rei barely understands her own feelings; it's evident that Shinji and Rei having formed a closer friendship this time around has helped Rei to branch out and open up more to the world around her, which is the reason she's even trying to help Asuka now in the first place. But is that really evidence to that original claim?

Is the scene not as well done as the one from episode 22? Does it now fail the bechdel test? Yes and yes, to be entirely honest. But is it evidence that Rei II is now a weaker character because her and Shinji's dynamic is more fleshed out in this version of events? I mean I'm biased so I don't think it does, but that's just my answer and we haven't really agreed on anything thus far regarding Rebuild so idk.

[Joseki]

Honestly I think I can count the number of scenes in the four movies that do not include Shinji or are not about other characters talking about Shinji with a single hand.

[Axx°N N.]

Sure yeah, but that just says more about Asuka than it does about Rei. My point was that you brought up this comparison between the elevator scenes as evidence that Rei's role in the story is reduced to being a plot device in Shinji's story in 2.0 (which y'know what, I'm not even necessarily 100% disagreeing with you on that) but what I'm trying to say is that this isn't really evidence for that claim.

I guess this amounts to a disagreement on how damaging Shinji's larger prominence is on a scene by scene basis. You can disengage and separate things and see him being brought into the conversation without it undermining anything. But to me it means this amounts to Rei and Asuka being given no breathing room to exist on their own. Shinji might as well have jumped down from a drop tile and went "yo!"

There's a real frustration to the insistence of certain things (Shinji, time-skip explanations) being obligated into every single scene, even if it's mostly about something else or could be focused tighter.

Stronger focus on Shinji isn't the end all be all of issues here because I think the worse casualty is, as you say, it just amounts to the scene itself being clunkier on a purely "this dialogue is going on too long, their arms are gesturing around too much, there's too much going on" sense.

[BernardoCairo]

Honestly I think I can count the number of scenes in the four movies that do not include Shinji or are not about other characters talking about Shinji with a single hand.

That's actually a very good point to be made. I do think it's not a problem in first an d third movies, that are centered around Shinji by design. But it's pretty annoying on both HA and Shin, as they try to cover more characters (and in Shin's case, conclude their ""arcs"").
It's one of the reasons why I believe these movies are the worst of the tetralogy and why they sour everything for me.

[ChrisTamv]

That's actually a very good point to be made. I do think it's not a problem in first an d third movies, that are centered around Shinji by design. But it's pretty annoying on both HA and Shin, as they try to cover more characters (and in Shin's case, conclude their ""arcs"").

The Rebuilds in general are more Shinji - centric by design, but despite that almost all characters are given actual arcs. That's not just the case for 1.0 and 3.0.

[BernardoCairo]

Yep, it is Shinji centric by design. But while the first and third movies are more focus and have a smarter scope, placing Shinji's inner thoughts and perspective at the heart of the movie, HA and Shin try to expand things and develop a humongous number of characters at the same time. Watch the first and second movies back-to-back and see what I'm saying.
Also, I wouldn't call most of these "arcs". Throwing everything under my face at the last possible second and calling it a day isn't really what I would consider an "arc".

[Konja7]

Also, I wouldn't call most of these "arcs". Throwing everything under my face at the last possible second and calling it a day isn't really what I would consider an "arc".

I really enjoyed that part of the Instrumentality.

It isn't a conventional way to conclude character arcs, but it was pretty enjoyable for me.

[ChrisTamv]

Also, I wouldn't call most of these "arcs". Throwing everything under my face at the last possible second and calling it a day isn't really what I would consider an "arc".

They are arcs. Characters went through experiences that made them believe in a lie, and through their later experiences and interactions with others that lie is challenged and they develop. The fact that part of Asuka's and Gendo's backstories are revealed even later than than in the original series doesn't change that.

[Axx°N N.]

See, I'm on board with the idea of using Instrumentality as a sort of in-universe tool to take advantage of as a writer, and the novel ways one can use total dissolution of border to resolve character conflicts in an unconventional way ... but that's not novel to NTE. NTE's unique feature is that its version of this is much, much faster to the point that certain parts of it need to be watched at .5x speed to have anything close to functional pacing. The arcs vie for attention with other more superfluous elements, CGI, fanservice, touching all bases of the time-skip, etc.

I don't really perceive the premise of the arcs to be that the characters were told a lie, and their growth beyond that lie; that would be a film series I'd be interested to see. The premise of NTE's arcs strikes me as hinging more on Shinji's blame and Gendo's redemption. Asuka, destined to forever be the poster child of what went awry, never wrestles with the lie. I'd have loved to see how her character compartmentalizes being lied to and how she views Gendo and how she psychologically fits herself within NTE's unique scenario. But she seems completely absent from every context with the lone exception of how she relates to Shinji's actions. Yes, the trauma of her cloning is brought up, but are we to say that the one second of her scowling in the direction of Gendo (and really, it's more she's reacting to Shinji) is enough to carry the weight?

[ChrisTamv]

I agree with some of the pacing issues you brought up, however by "lie" I'm mainly referring to one of the general fundamental components of character arcs (such as the "wants", "need", etc.).

In the Rebuilds Asuka's "lie" is that she's alone, she will always be alone, and her only home and self worth will always be tied to her Eva. All of these were built up throughout 2.0 and 3.0+1.0. Her Instrumentality sequence simply shows the initial origin of said loneliness stemming from her upbringing and complete lack of a parent figure in her life, and merely confirms that she's been able to overcome said lie by finding a home she can call her own in Village 3 next to Kensuke (the way she acts throughout the first act in the Village heavily hinted to this conclusion).

[Axx°N N.]

No, I get all of that; I'm not saying she's entirely devoid of an arc. I'm saying that if we think of an arc as a series of connections branching out to other elements (or arcs) in a narrative, I personally feel as if there are some glaring omissions, some nodes without connection. Like, it's just weird that Asuka is so wrapped up in those feelings only without branching out from them into some larger picture viewpoint. Why is everyone so embittered against Shinji, but Gendo is treated as if he's invisible in half the scenes his presence should be informing a larger part of the context?

[BernardoCairo]

The fact that part of Asuka's and Gendo's backstories are revealed even later than than in the original series doesn't change that.

It's not about their backstories or how late they were revealed. Asuka doesn't really change much on screen. She changes a little in HA, then she's barely in Q and in Shin she has a kind of epiphany that lasts about 3 minutes and that's it. It is an arc in the most basic and rudimentary sense of the word. It's not like she's an accomplished character who changes as the tetralogy progresses. She feels more like a bunch of half baked ideas piled together.
In the original series, the reveal of her backstory is her character's climax up to that point, but she is so much more than that. In Shin she has that and that's pretty much it.
Nothing against Gendo, though

[nerv bae]

... NTE's unique feature is that its version of this is much, much faster to the point that certain parts of it need to be watched at .5x speed to have anything close to functional pacing. The arcs vie for attention with other more superfluous elements, CGI, fanservice, touching all bases of the time-skip, etc.

Chuckled to myself a bit remembering a conversation from last year:

EGF community project: force Axx°N N. to watch NTE at 67% regular playback speed.

[LightDragonman]

Might as well just repost what I wrote on a different thread here, because I still think that more than anything else, this series proves that Anno does have at least one character he has nothing but hatred for, that being Rei, alongside his scorn at those who refuse to see her as creepy like he does.

Given how he has said that he intended Rei to be creepy and views her as his least favorite character, alongside how 3.0 turned out in terms of how it treated Shinji's actions, along with how little screentime the last film gave in terms of Rei II, it really comes across that he hates or has contempt for those who have Rei as their favorite character.

I will say that he treatment in the first two films was at the very least solid. Seeing her go from an emotionless automaton to learning to love and care for others, especially Shinji, was something I found extremely heartwarming. All the moments between her and him, with the former in the end of 2.0 willing to give up her life for him, and Shinji willing to do the same for her was captivating for me to watch. His statement that there was no other Ayanami but her, and that's why he'll save her, when she viewed herself as expendable due to being a clone was something that honestly moved me. It gave off the message that "everyone is worth saving, regardless of upbringing or origins, as there's always someone there for you."

Only that changed in 3.0, and this is where I have problems, and see Anno's disdain start to come in. Given that 3.0 is meant to be Anno's true vision of the series, as opposed to the first two films being little more than what the fans want them to be, now she's replaced with a literal soulless shell, who is more in line with how Anno meant to portray her. At the very least, it did succeed in turning fans away from her, as her popularity plummeted in the polls to the point that Asuka and Kaworu now greatly exceed her.

But also in regards to the budding relationship between Rei II and Shinji, this film made it so that not only did he not save the former, but his attempt to do so ended the world. Which changes the whole message to "if you are little more than the object for one to try and escape reality, then you should die, and you really are worthless. Not to mention that you shouldn't bother to save someone you care about, as that person is little more than someone to coddle you, and the consequences for doing so are too great."

Which doesn't really make much sense in terms of the story or even the characters, given how it allowed the two of them to actually open up to others and learnt to care and love, alongside it being an extremely mean-spirited "screw you" to those who found his rescue of her to be heartwarming. But it does make sense from a meta-commentary angle. As Anno meant for Rei to be the symbol for an otaku's unwillingness to open up to actual people and how they prefer their ideal women to be. Given how Anno greatly likes "strong women" like Asuka and Misato over Rei, who he sees as a reflection of Japan's people to go for "weak-willed dolls" which he hates, this is reflected in how he treated her.

Either way, it makes investing in Rei's character and her relationship with Shinji a complete waste of time and even unhealthy in the eyes of Anno, leaving me feeling both cheated and stupid for ever having the gall to view it as anything other than the metaphor for unhealthy escapism over embracing reality.

Which then leads us to 3.0 + 1.0. Here, it backtracks, by having the replacement Rei go through an abridged version of the previous Rei's development, only for her to die, making her character feel pointless beyond just motivating Shinji. Then it turns out that no, Rei II was in fact saved and was waiting for Shinji all this time. It even says that he was correct for saving her after all. Great, now we can move forward.

Except that, because of all the stuff that's going on, all we get are a couple of scenes with the two, that barely last a couple of minutes, whereas the scenes he gets with Asuka and Kaworu at the end are far more extensive, even though his relationship with them wasn't built up as much (albeit Kaworu did get a whole movie in 3.0). Meanwhile, this one, that had been built up over the course of the previous movies, even in 3.0 to an extent, gets minimal payoff, concludes abruptly, which I found very unsatisfying.

It's like Anno knew he had to give it some sort of resolution, but because he still hates it because it's still just a symbol for an unhealthy escapist fantasy over embracing reality, he tried to wrap it up as quickly as possible. Especially given how he makes Mari, a brand new character that shared the least amount of time with Shinji, the one he runs off with at the end, as she's a symbol for a fresh start for him.

Given all that, I can't view this as anything other than Anno having nothing but scorn and hatred for Rei, her relationship with Shinji, and the fans who view her differently from how he intended.

[Konja7]

LightDragonman#941087, I don't agree with your statements, since I really doubt Anno has personal grudge against Rei and her fans. That said, there are some points I want to mention:

I will say that he treatment in the first two films was at the very least solid. Seeing her go from an emotionless automaton to learning to love and care for others, especially Shinji, was something I found extremely heartwarming. All the moments between her and him, with the former in the end of 2.0 willing to give up her life for him, and Shinji willing to do the same for her was captivating for me to watch. His statement that there was no other Ayanami but her, and that's why he'll save her, when she viewed herself as expendable due to being a clone was something that honestly moved me. It gave off the message that "everyone is worth saving, regardless of upbringing or origins, as there's always someone there for you."

I should mention that Rei trying to sarcifice herself for Shinji in 2.0 isn't portrayed as a really a good thing (even if it was interesting). In itself, this is Rei considering herself expendable, but it adds that she wants to give Shinji a life without the Eva, which is related to her being unable to imagine a live without the Eva for herself.

It's true that Shinji's goal of saving Rei at the end of 2.0 is mainly portrayed heroically, but he still said that he doesn't care about the World and the Third Impact (that would destroy humanity) is started. So, 3.0 may decided to portray Shinji's actions in the previous movie as problematic, but the basis already existed in 2.0.

That said, I don't think 3.0 portraying the consequences of Shinji's actions as pretty negative is an attack to Rei fans. This was just a way to continue the story.

Except that, because of all the stuff that's going on, all we get are a couple of scenes with the two, that barely last a couple of minutes, whereas the scenes he gets with Asuka and Kaworu at the end are far more extensive, even though his relationship with them wasn't built up as much (albeit Kaworu did get a whole movie in 3.0). Meanwhile, this one, that had been built up over the course of the previous movies, even in 3.0 to an extent, gets minimal payoff, concludes abruptly, which I found very unsatisfying.

It's because 3.0+1.0 spend so much time in Rei Q's development in Village 3 that the staff didn't feel the need to spend much more time in Rei II in the Instrumentality.

I'm not precisely happy about this decision, but it's implied Rei II decision in the Instrumentality was helped by Rei Q memories.

[Konja7]

LightDragonman#941287, I've especially want refute (again) your idea that Rei lost popularity due to Rebuild movies.

At the very least, it did succeed in turning fans away from her, as her popularity plummeted in the polls to the point that Asuka and Kaworu now greatly exceed her.

This isn't really true. Asuka was already the favorite character in Japanese polls (for female characters) during 2.0:




In fact, there was a Japanese poll for EoE in 1997 where Asuka and Kaworu (and other characters) were more popular than Rei.

tweet-body

— twitter-user (@username) date

1 = Asuka Langley Soryu
2 = Kaworu Nagisa
3 = Shinji Ikari
4 = Misato Katsuragi
5 = Rei Ayanami
6 = Maya Ibuki
7 = Ryoji Kaji
8 = Gendo Ikari
9 = Ritsuko Akagi
10 = Pen Pen

[Blockio]

Might as well just repost what I wrote on a different thread here, because I still think that more than anything else, this series proves that Anno does have at least one character he has nothing but hatred for, that being Rei, alongside his scorn at those who refuse to see her as creepy like he does.

Oh hey, it's RDF bullshit again.

No, this is categorically untrue. If you did even a little bit of actual research into interviews and production materials, you would very soon have happened across the one in which he talks about how Rei represents one of the deepest subconscious parts of himself, which he finds a lot of stability in but does not know how to do many interesting things with after her first arc up to Ramiel.

Anno does not hate Rei, that is a strawman by butthurt lowlifes on the internet who are mad that their waifu didn't get the plot they wanted her to get

[dzzthink]

I do believe that at the centre of forum discussions on NTE, the divisions mostly relate to the characters of Asuka and Mari. The majority of NTE 1 and 2 remained somewhat faithful to NGE, but I think the character story arcs for Asuka and Mari are the most unique in the NTE rebuild series, in that we are shown essentially two new characters: one being a Shikinami version of Asuka and another character who is a eva pilot but whom no one has ever heard of before who seems to tie the events of the past to the current. In addition, it is revealed that Shikinami is a clone, which further heightened discussion on the complexity of this character arc and what that implies. I can understand what they did was used to maybe add another level of intrigue to why Asuka is shut off from the others rather than having a more convoluted plot regarding her mother, but I think there is a repetitive nature of this sub-plot in that this concept was already used with Rei being a clone and that she is replaceable. Both characters have been changed the most in the entire NTE series and I think makes the series some what completely different from NGE.

[BernardoCairo]

I don't really think saying that Shikinami and Mari aren't interesting characters and were poorly handled in the movies is a controversial thing to say around here, to be honest. Even the ones who defend these films find them to be lackluster (Shikinami not so much, but the comparison with Soryu is not very favorable).