Ancient beings, Seele and the Dead Sea Scrolls

[Raikyu]

Previously, I speculated that the Nazca-like outline in the South Pole was representing Fifth Adams in the scrolls/Evangelion 13, but after reading the interesting conclusions made by Lacissal in Another topic, I know think that line is only symbolically representing The "Gate of Hell" entrance. That drawing may not be a Seraphim, but a Cherubin, which is the guardian of the Eden, just like the Adams are the guardians of the gate. So this is not any particular being, but only a symbol marking the entrance to the Minus Universe. Also, considering that Asuka calls Evangelion 13 "God's Eva", it can't be represented by a Cherubin, which is a servant of god.

[Ah Q]

I don't know if they really represent the Adams, but I remember a tweet from one of the producers saying that "1.0 contains a spoiler of Shin" and everybody speculated that we was talking about the outline. There is definitely a pattern here

Anyone have a link to this Tweet (or any other information about it)?

[Raikyu]

Anyone have a link to this Tweet (or any other information about it)?

Sorry, but that twet was published when the movie was about to be released in Japan, so before March 8th. If I can find it, I will put it here.

Edit: I was able to find it: post/907002/Shin-Eva-Official-Social-Media-222-You-Can-Not-Release/#p907002

According to him. There is something in 1.0 that is related to the Key. Maybe what would later become the Key is found on tokyo-3. If my theory that the Key is a part of Eva-13 is correct, then the body outline represents the place where Eva-13 was found.

[DantesInferno]

Anyone have a link to this Tweet (or any other information about it)?

Sorry, but that twet was published when the movie was about to be released in Japan, so before March 8th. If I can find it, I will put it here.

Edit: I was able to find it: post/907002/Shin-Eva-Official-Social-Media-222-You-Can-Not-Release/#p907002

According to him. There is something in 1.0 that is related to the Key. Maybe what would later become the Key is found on tokyo-3. If my theory that the Key is a part of Eva-13 is correct, then the body outline represents the place where Eva-13 was found.

This makes sense. At first I thought the outline was were Eva-01 has been found (since it's the foremost Adams-based Eva active around Tokyo at that time), but it doesn't make much sense that the outline would still be there so many years later: Eva-01 was basically completed already by the time Yui disappeared into its core.

Of course this opens another question: Why did it take so long to turn this Adams washed ashore in Tokyo-3 into Eva-13? Gendo and Seele have conversations about budget, priorities, their real goals, etc., so perhaps something to do with that. So there's an Adams lying around from Second Impact, being kept ("as a spare"? ) all along through 1.0, 2.0 AND the time skip, and finally gets to be retrofitted into Eva-13 during Q.

[Raikyu]

Good question.

The only explanation I can think about is that Eva-13 wasn't the initial plan, but its Adams was preserved as a backup plan I guess. Maybe Gendo planned to use it, but not SEELE. Only after the failure of the SEELE's third impact, Gendo got the green light to built it (just like he planned from the beginning).

[Lacissal]

That drawing may not be a Seraphim, but a ...
Cherubin, which is the guardian of the Eden, just like the Adams are the guardians of the gate. So this is not any particular being, but only a symbol marking the entrance to the Minus Universe. Also, considering that Asuka calls Evangelion 13 "God's Eva", it can't be represented by a Cherubin, which is a servant of god.

Lol I didn't mean it quite so literally as ADAMs guard the gate-Cherubim guard Eden-ADAMs=Cherubim therefore Eva 13 (God's Eva) =/= Cherubim (servant of God (apologies if I've misunderstood you). I think other than visual simularities it's better not to try and identify the Eva-Outline with serpahim or cherubim.

My reasoning/theory atm is:
The 4 ships are meant to guard the Gates (re their keel laying inscription class names and Ritsuko's dialogue when they emerge over Calvary)
The 4 ships are refered to by Mari as ADAMs
In Rebuild, there is no White Moon, ADAMs are not Seeds (not that Seeds exist- Lilith is the source of life on Earth, but this is different from being a fruit bearing Seed created by the extraterrestrial FAR, who also don't exist in Rebuild, with Ancients/the Gods Instead) and they don't have a connection to Kaworu
In the Anti-Universe, Gendo refers to the ADAMs and spears:

The Golgotha Object.

Someone not human left the world of gods here, along with the Adams and the six spears.

My wife... your mother... was also here.

Leaving aside the wtf moment of Yui-God, in Rebuild the ADAMs are something, like the Spears, left/created for a particular function
I've quoted it above: Gendo's speech on top of the Wunder, where God gives humanity the binary choice of be destroyed by the Angels, or destroy them, replacing them as God's children and gaining the FoL at the cost of losing the FoK + the descriptions we get of how the Fourth Impact (by Ritsuko and then by Gendo) is different from SEELE's scenario- in SEELE instrumentality/God's plan is humanity fights the angels on Earth, conduct the impacts, gain the FoL, become Evas, lose wisdom and nobody goes beyond the gates and messes with the Golgotha object with Additional Impacts [I also suspect that in SEELE's scenario nobody should be using the Key of Nebuchadnezzar]
-therefore it seems likely that the ships class/function is just continuing that of the ADAMs-to guard the Gates

(Gendo's line about the Golgotha Object also makes me think that the ADAMs and Spears were not buried in Antarctica like in NGE, but came through the Gate from the other side as part of 2nd Impact)

The cherubims guarding Eden was an interesting parallel or possible source of inspiration, given some of the more Genesis based lore that appears to be present in Rebuild, though I'd need to check out more Japanese mythology. If anyone's familiar with the Final Fantasy Fabula Nova Crystallis subseries (FFXIII, Type-0, the original Versus XIII) amongst a fair detailed mythos the central part, and usual main focus of the games is the Gate controlled by the Goddess Etro that seperates the physical/mortal world from the unseen world/afterlife.

Atm I'm inclined to think that the Mark.06 has no connection to the ADAMs. Before Shin came out it was fairly logical to assume it had been blasted there in 2nd Impact (like the near Tokyo III outline) and excavated by SEELE (and is a visual reference to 2001 when they excavate the Monolith on the Moon) and then converted to an Eva, but now we know it would have had to bullseye the ring of Kaworu coffins and there's no visible signs, like a broken landscape, that something other than blood spray hit the Moon, it would make more sense for SEELE to build their True God Evangelion in the middle of Kaworu's coffins. Given the mask design, SEELE's contract with Lilith and the Mark.06's role in 3I it would make more sense for it to be a clone of Lilith rather than ADAMs based, and all the other Evas (incl 01) being ADAMs derived (possibly from Eva 13 if it's the fifth ADAMs/Ur-Eva).

Other than the Ships and Opfer types, Eva 13 is the only thing (verbally) connected to the ADAMs: Mari's 'ADAMs survivor*' and visual clues like it/something with 4 arms wielding spears leading the 4 beings who are likely the ADAMs in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

So:
in the 2nd Impact flashback 4 spears appear
according to Gendo, until Ritsuko MacGuyvers the Wunder into a spear there should be only 6 holy spears
4 (seen at second impact) + 2 forming the Black Moon
after 2nd Impact there are only (minus the Black Moon) 2 spears- the Cassius seen at Tabgha Base and the Longinus in Lilith
-these are the same 2 in the Mark 06 and Lilith that Eva 13 removes in 3.0
-therefore it seems 2 spears were used up in 2nd Impact

I'm thinking something like Eva 13 is a fifth, special ADAMs who, due to the 4 arms 2 spears, controls access to the Gates while the others guard it, or the fifth ADAMs is meant to have the 2 spears used in 2nd impact used on it as the Impact trigger to purify the oceans, Mari's 'survivor among the ADAMs' line would make sense in this latter context, or is an Ur-Eva left for Lilin to accomplish Instrumentality

Much more speculative-
Eva 13 is one of the (but different from the other 4 ADAMs
it is used in 2nd Impact
in the destruction afterwards it is washed up/crashes into the Japanese coast, leaving the outline
for reasons (possibly relating to the Gates) SEELE chose not to use it in their Instrumentality Project, but make the other Evas as clones from it, while the other ADAMs are become the ships/opfer types
it's kept in NERV HQ's basement in whatever state it was found, not meant to be used (possibly like the Key of Nebuchadnezzar) as SEELE planned the Mark.06 to be the last, true Eva
it's not until after 3I when both the Mark.06 and Lilith are ruined that Gendo gets to use Eva 13- in some relation to the Key

If you've read the Nausicaa manga the Key and Eva 13 have some similiarities to the last functioning God Warrior excavated in Pejitei and it's Control Stone that both regenerates and controls it.


EDIT- In the lower half of the DSS, just to the right of Zeruel and partly behind the distracting, glowing dragon thing is Ramiel hidden in plain sight!

SPOILER: Show

[DantesInferno]

My reasoning/theory atm is:

[...]

Great analysis; I think I agree overall. The only thing that doesn't make sense to me is why Seele would go out of their way to build the Mark.06 on the Moon.

You need to transport all materials, equipment and personnel, not to mention all the extra equipment needed to work in outer space (space suits, make every facility airtight and wiht airlocks in every gate, etc.); it just doesn't make sense in terms of resources. Keeping it a secret doesn't seem to be it (Gendo and Fuyutsuki can easily go and take a look). The need for it to happen near the coffins is an interesting line; I would like to see where it leads (the coffins and Kaworu himself are still shrouded in mystery). It's also possible that the coffins appeared there after 2I (I think the blood stain passes underneath the coffins, must confirm)...

Also, we know there was a scene cut where Mark.06 is blown to the moon as a result of 2I. The fact that it was cut can either be because it was redundant (i.e., its occurrence can be inferred from other info on screen) or because it was decanonized, but we don't know either way...

And finally, why is it being built inside what looks like an excavation site?

EDIT- In the lower half of the DSS, just to the right of Zeruel and partly behind the distracting, glowing dragon thing is Ramiel hidden in plain sight!

SPOILER: Show

And to its right, right below the hole in the paper, you can see Clockiel's "pendulum".

[Giji Shinka]

Gendo's speech about his plans to Misato in Shin is likely referring to God with a capital G/the Gods/those who left things behind in the Anti-Universe/Eva Imaginary/Uber Yui (?)

I thought based on Gendo's dialogue "Yui, your mother was here too" he meant that Yui simply got a chance to visit Golgotha object as some point in the past, I don't think it implied anything about her being some divine entity in the minus universe.

[TomsonPRD]

Also, we know there was a scene cut where Mark.06 is blown to the moon as a result of 2I. The fact that it was cut can either be because it was redundant (i.e., its occurrence can be inferred from other info on screen) or because it was decanonized, but we don't know either way...

Oooh, that's interesting! Was it included inside 2.0's CRC or was it published somewhere else on the web, like a storyboard screenshot? I must've missed it...

[Lacissal]

I think the cut storyboards only show the bloodstain hitting the Moon with no object-either Mark.06 or Cassius. hitting the Moon-
storyboard scan with translation (by Reichu with link to Evageeks)

https://www.reddit.com/r/evangelion/comments/440erg/blood_stain_on_the_moon_evangelion_222_storyboard/

[Raikyu]

I think the cut storyboards only show the bloodstain hitting the Moon with no object-either Mark.06 or Cassius. hitting the Moon-
storyboard scan with translation (by Reichu with link to Evageeks)

https://www.reddit.com/r/evangelion/comments/440erg/blood_stain_on_the_moon_evangelion_222_storyboard/

Yep. Before the release of Shin, everyone theorized that Mark. 06 was one of the Adams that was projected to the moon after the Second Impact, and that cut storyboard was one of the proofs. But now, with the Opfer Type Evas, things may be different. Personally, I'm not a supporter of that theory, but I don't exclude the possibility.

[Giji Shinka]

I do think Mark.06 might still be an Adam since Fuyutsuki mentions that SEELE wants to create true God at last instead of a false one out of it, which tells me that all other Eva units are just clones of it or/and Eva-13, including Unit-01.
I also don't think Opfer Type Evas are original Adams since when Mark.09 was destroyed, NERV just made a new one. They are man-made. My theory on them is that just like Advanced Ayanami series are better versions of the original batch (Rei 2 and Rei 6), Opfer type Evas are advanced clones of Adams, one step above your average Eva units, but step below true Adams like Mark.06 and Eva-13.
Also, the thing that made me come to the conclusion that Eva-01 is just an average clone (Test-type) is when they revealed that Asuka and Mari had DSS chokers on them, they wouldn't need them if their Eva units weren't capable of awakening like Unit-01.

[Raikyu]

I do think Mark.06 might still be an Adam since Fuyutsuki mentions that SEELE wants to create true God at last instead of a false one out of it, which tells me that all other Eva units are just clones of it or/and Eva-13, including Unit-01.
I also don't think Opfer Type Evas are original Adams since when Mark.09 was destroyed, NERV just made a new one. They are man-made. My theory on them is that just like Advanced Ayanami series are better versions of the original batch (Rei 2 and Rei 6), Opfer type Evas are advanced clones of Adams, one step above your average Eva units, but step below true Adams like Mark.06 and Eva-13.

I wanted to say the ships, not the Opfer Type Evas. My mistake. I think that those things are the Adams. I don't think that Mari would call them "Adams" if they were clones. The Opfer Type Evas could be their cores, after all Mark. 09 is all made of core. I may be wrong, but I got the impression that mark. 09-A was reconstructed from mark. 09 remains, instead of being a different unit.

Also, the thing that made me come to the conclusion that Eva-01 is just an average clone (Test-type) is when they revealed that Asuka and Mari had DSS chokers on them, they wouldn't need them if their Eva units weren't capable of awakening like Unit-01.

If I'm not mistaken, one of the reasons why everybody believed that Unit-01 was an Adams was due to its Radiant Giant pseudo-evolution. But since Unit-02 was able to turn in a form similar to a Radiant Giant, this could mean that even clones can do that. Maybe they need the Fruit of Life to Achieve that state. Unit-01 obtained from the Tenth Angel and Unit-02 obtained from Asuka's angel powers.

Regarding Unit-01, I like to think that it's still based on Lilith. But it's a personal preference and pure speculation without any concrete proof.

[Blockio]

Well, we've been saying that Asuka is an Adams for a while now, so why not take 02 being able to turn radiant giant as proof of that instead? Pilot souls have always been a bigger deal in NTE than they have been in NGE...

[Giji Shinka]

I may be wrong, but I got the impression that mark. 09-A was reconstructed from mark. 09 remains, instead of being a different unit.

Misato said that they built Mark.09 from scratch along with it's pilot, so they are man-made and since they are man-made, those NERV battleships are likely also man-made.
Also, if the ships (Who are guardians of guf) were the original Adams, why can't they act as triggers for an impact and Eva-13 is called one of the surviving Adams, implying that others didn't survive and they've established that other spears were lost in previous impacts, so it's very likely the case with Adams as well.

If I'm not mistaken, one of the reasons why everybody believed that Unit-01 was an Adams was due to its Radiant Giant pseudo-evolution. But since Unit-02 was able to turn in a form similar to a Radiant Giant, this could mean that even clones can do that. Maybe they need the Fruit of Life to Achieve that state. Unit-01 obtained from the Tenth Angel and Unit-02 obtained from Asuka's angel powers.

Regarding Unit-01, I like to think that it's still based on Lilith. But it's a personal preference and pure speculation without any concrete proof.

The movie series has specifically set up that you need an Adam or it's clone which acts as the vessel for Lilith and an angel to cause an impact. Eva-01 being a Lilith clone isn't implied at all and I don't know how something like that would fit with the estanlished impact mechanics.
And speaking of impact mechanics would angel reaching Lilith cause an impact in the first place, would it need to seek an Adam or it's clone to truly succeed?

Well, we've been saying that Asuka is an Adams for a while now, so why not take 02 being able to turn radiant giant as proof of that instead? Pilot souls have always been a bigger deal in NTE than they have been in NGE...

I don't buy the whole pilots and Asuka = Adam theory, especially since the films have given no concrete evidence and it just makes things needlessly convoluted.

[Blockio]

I mean, if you look at the films in any detail, there is already plenty of stuff there that firmly counts as convoluted. Sure, if you brush off anything you don't immediately understand as "just meaningless spectacle" then yeah, going more in-depth does make things convoluted, but I for one am not satisfied with such a reductive way of looking at things and would rather take the clues that Anno has put in them for what they are: Clues to figure out more

[Konja7]

I mean, if you look at the films in any detail, there is already plenty of stuff there that firmly counts as convoluted. Sure, if you brush off anything you don't immediately understand as "just meaningless spectacle" then yeah, going more in-depth does make things convoluted, but I for one am not satisfied with such a reductive way of looking at things and would rather take the clues that Anno has put in them for what they are: Clues to figure out more

There are definitely clues to figure out more in this story.

That said, Asuka being an Adams doesn't seem to have any real clue. Her Angel power in 3.0+1.0 comes from 9th Angel (this is stated in the movie).

[Blockio]

Yes, and the 9th angel in turn more likely than not is the Shikinami series; the giggling in the background during the 9th, the fact that it "infected" Asuka (or rather, that Asuka absorbed the angel into herself) in the same way that Shiki Prime absorbed Asuka into 13, the excessively large amount of mini-crosses during inside the entry plug indicating the presence of a lot of souls, all add up to paint a picture about the nature of the 9th; not to mention that the Ha storyboards had the angel materialize in the shape of Asuka's disembodied face

[Raikyu]

Yes, and the 9th angel in turn more likely than not is the Shikinami series; the giggling in the background during the 9th, the fact that it "infected" Asuka (or rather, that Asuka absorbed the angel into herself) in the same way that Shiki Prime absorbed Asuka into 13, the excessively large amount of mini-crosses during inside the entry plug indicating the presence of a lot of souls, all add up to paint a picture about the nature of the 9th; not to mention that the Ha storyboards had the angel materialize in the shape of Asuka's disembodied face

I alway interpreted that as the angel getting inside or her mind, after infecting the entry plug. It's like a mix of Bardiel and Arael.

[Blockio]

In a way it is, and for the longest time I would have said the same, but it's also Anno pulling out the rug from underneath you by toying with your expectations for what is going to happen; it's a bit hard to explain in a short fashion because so much of it is tiny visual hints that by themselves seem innocuous, but when taken together in turn give more hints towards something bigger. I don't blame anyone for missing any of them, it took a long time to figure this stuff out, but I do implore people to not dismiss them out of hand because "that's such a tiny detail, how could it possibly mean anything", as quite a number of people unfortunately do