Ancient beings, Seele and the Dead Sea Scrolls

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Ancient beings, Seele and the Dead Sea Scrolls

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Postby andreh » Sat Aug 14, 2021 6:02 pm

I made this thread to discuss about Seele nature and the God/Ancient Beings background in Shin Eva.

Do you guys think that Final put some light on Seele origins after the Dead Sea Scrolls reveal or it will be open for especulation forever? Thanks to Reichu, here we have a full view of the Dead Sea Scrolls (Source):
SPOILER: Show
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SPOILER: Show
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We can see some Angels, EVAs (with anunnaki/sumerian style), the spears, "people" that looks like Mark07 and their skull heads and a deity with people and halos/Guf's Door on her avian (?) feet.

And here we have a "Nazca"-like thing at the epicenter of the Second Impact, named Calvary Base:
SPOILER: Show
Image

It also resembles a ancient being/god or maybe the Adams/Ships original (fused?) form.

I remember Reichu's theory about Seele skulls, which should be a confirmation of their ancient/pre-lilin nature. Do you guys think Final confirm this?
*Another little thing to add, its just me or EVA02 have the same "double skull" thing spotted by Reichu? Even the nervous system looks duplicated...
SPOILER: Show
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I do not speak English natively. If you see any error, blame my teacher or Google Translate LOL

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Re: Ancient beings, Seele and the Dead Sea Scrolls

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Postby rangure0412 » Sat Aug 14, 2021 6:16 pm

The third image looks like a biblically accurate seraphim.

https://www.google.com/search?q=biblica ... 66&bih=696

In the case of Seele. Definitely in Rebuild they are the ancient Arthur C. Clarke/Stanley Kubrick´s monoliths. Those who bring to the human race the fruit of wisdom and knowledge.

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Re: Ancient beings, Seele and the Dead Sea Scrolls

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Postby Lickitung » Sat Aug 14, 2021 6:20 pm

that female figure with claws instead of feet is the representation of lilith, mother of demons

SPOILER: Show
Image

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Re: Ancient beings, Seele and the Dead Sea Scrolls

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Postby Lacissal » Sat Aug 14, 2021 6:33 pm

View Original Postandreh wrote: "people" that looks like Mark07 and their skull heads


And here we have a "Nazca"-like thing at the epicenter of the Second Impact, named Calvary Base:
SPOILER: Show
Image

It also resembles a ancient being/god or maybe the Adams/Ships original (fused?) form.



I think the 'people' with the skull heads, as they have wings and are in a group of 4, are supposed to be the ADAMs.

Their relation to the larger figure with 4 arms to their right and what relation Eva 13 has to the ADAMs or the identification of the giant Nazca line like figure on the ground at Calvary base is open to speculation. The figure on the ground, being at the centre of the Instrumentality Rites, could be a representation of Evangelion Imaginary as a primordial 'Ur'-Eva.

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Re: Ancient beings, Seele and the Dead Sea Scrolls

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Postby Sworzen » Sat Aug 14, 2021 6:34 pm

Are the scrolls written in Sumerian? Could they be translated? :O
I think it's also important to point out this quote from Gendo as Eva13 and 01 get closer to the Golgotha object:

"Beings who were not human, left behind in this place six spears, the Adams and the world of the gods. My wife, your mother was here as well"

That last part about Yui really blew my mind. I don't know why that could be nor its implications for the NTE lore.

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Re: Ancient beings, Seele and the Dead Sea Scrolls

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Postby Lacissal » Sat Aug 14, 2021 6:41 pm

View Original PostSworzen wrote:Are the scrolls written in Sumerian? Could they be translated? :O


I actually have an Assyriologist friend who I immediately thought to ask to have a look (though even if you're a professional, translating Akkadian or Sumerian is still quite a hard slog).

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Dead Sea Scroll from Shin

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Postby N1CK0 » Sat Aug 14, 2021 7:18 pm

I mean c'mon, this is literally Anno saying "go on nerds, have some fun"

Pic from movie:
SPOILER: Show
Image


My analysis:
Top section: in the middle the Tree of Life, with respectively the Fourth angel and a human on the left and right. Between them and the Tree there are two big fruits compared to the fruits of the other branches, probably the fruit of life and knownledge. Behind the angel and human there are two "adams", recognizable by the spears and size. The one on the left seems to have three arms, while the on the right as arms and legs that recall the one of an Eva.
A human figure can be seen on the bottomost sphere of the Tree, while a eye peeks behind the uppermost sphere, next to the sun and the moon.
Second section:
a procession of sort. From left to right: the Fifth angel, four winged individuals, and what is probably eva-13, leading the procession. The unit can be recognized by the four arms and horn. The arms carry the Lance, a basket and two swords.
I think this image in a way suggest that the "five Adams" theory is true, with the four Adams from Ha being the middle winged individuals (later reused to create the various ships/Eva Opfer type?) and a last, unknown Adam to which belongs the slanted cross in Antartica (possibly a perfect Adam? Or the "true" one?) later used to create the Eva 13.
Glowing section:
In this section, the accadic text is much more chaotic in its "formatting", probably alluding to the apocryphal state of those texts. The glowing text is also written over normals text and images, although difficult to notice at first glance.
Immediately where to glowing text begins, one can see on the dark section left to the hole a faint Zeruel, followed by a glowing monster/dragon face spitting/eating human figures. This image and the text on the right overwrite a drawing of the Seventh and Fifth angel.
Below it, there seems to be just text, but in truth one can notice the legs of a woman that divides in two the block of text, with her body on the right. On it there are two human figures. An inner circle is present in the body (a womb?). Below the knee one can see the face of a dragon/monster, whose body continues in an arc to the left.
It is important to notice how above the body one can see the sun, the moon and the stars, and the body seems to be a sort of "sky" for the two people on the woman's body. I know a bit Accadik myths, and this recalls to me the myth of Marduk, who killed the dragon Tiamat to create the world (if my memory isn't rusty). I cannot grasp the meaning of this image, since it is well hidden within the scroll and we have few details to work it out.
The text overwrites some images of winged Adams, facing left. They to sport differ faces, the external one being more humanoid compared to the most internal one. I can count at lest other two figures after them, going towards the center (only their tunics are visible) and on th right side the tunic of a bigger being can be seen, facing left (?) and holding a faintly visible spear. Could it be the a mirrored version of the upper procession?
Then the image of a giant winged goddess can be seen, holding two rings (it reminds me if the relief of Lilith called Burney Relief ). At her feet human figures can be seen on the left and right and below her inhuman feet ripples can be seen (to be connected with visual ripples thst one can see during the impacts?). The ripples can also be seen behind her back and those ripples and the one below seem to be connected bw what to me look like waterfalls.
There is some overwrite to the right of the goddess but it is too faint to be discerned clearly. I do think it is just text.
Obviously this image recalls the giant Rei and thus Instrumentality, and goes well with what Gendoh states: he discovered a new possible fate for mankind, in contrast with Seele's plan, in a apocryphal text of the scrolls.

I think I don't have more to add to the moment as for the analysis. Do you think the text can be translated? Will it make sense?

Edit: some small corrections to text
Last edited by N1CK0 on Sun Aug 15, 2021 2:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dead Sea Scroll from Shin

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Postby Pluto » Sat Aug 14, 2021 7:29 pm

I think the key thing that stands out is the four Adams at the bottom with an obvious-looking Mk13. I don't think the text can be translated but I do think this image combined with Gendo's lore dump is the key to understanding the Human Instrumentality project as well as the FAR (first ancestral race) mystery.

Also, for image hosting, I recommend using imagebb. It will automatically format the images for bb code after you upload.

To Mods: can we merge with this topic?
Oh, the clock is ticking out

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Re: Ancient beings, Seele and the Dead Sea Scrolls

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Postby Raikyu » Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:05 pm

I think that the first section of the scrolls (the one in the yellow-ish background) represents Adam/Adams and its/their children which are the angels, all beings based on the Fruit of Life, while the second section (in dark background) represent Lilith and Lilin, the beings associated to the Fruit of Knowledge.

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Re: Ancient beings, Seele and the Dead Sea Scrolls

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Postby DantesInferno » Sun Aug 15, 2021 6:03 am

I love how the scrolls have a "plain text" content, and an additional "encrypted" content that is revealed under black light (much like the anti-counterfeit schemes normally seen in paper currency).

I wonder if this has anything to do with the "apocrypha" that Gendo mentions, or what.

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Re: Ancient beings, Seele and the Dead Sea Scrolls

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Postby Kendrix » Sun Aug 15, 2021 7:05 am

View Original PostLickitung wrote:that female figure with claws instead of feet is the representation of lilith, mother of demons

SPOILER: Show
Image


That's such a great detail!

What I find most mysterious is Gendo's line about how Yui has somehow been to the minus universe

The simplest explanation is that she predicted/ explored it on some previous scientific endeavor, or that Gendo is speaking metaphorically about his expectation to "find" her there.

But, Crack theory: Yui is a FAR who was sealed in the minus universe & released from there when Dr. Katsuragi & co started tampering with it. Hence why Shinji is the same as the other "mock Lillim" but seems to have been born normally. The others are replications of his hybrid makeup. (Except for Rei who was copied from Yui directly, but since this resulted in an unstable, barely viable product, the Shikinami & Makinami pilots were made with more human material)

View Original Postandreh wrote:
And here we have a "Nazca"-like thing at the epicenter of the Second Impact, named Calvary Base:
SPOILER: Show
Image


What i see here is not a nazca bird but a humanoid skeleton with "angel wings". The "gate to hell" is where it's core would be, with a rib cage around it


We all see Sachiel and Shamshel tho?
The four identical winged figures are probably the Adams, and this round thing handed to them may be the fruit of life
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Re: Ancient beings, Seele and the Dead Sea Scrolls

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Postby DantesInferno » Sun Aug 15, 2021 7:23 am

View Original PostKendrix wrote:What I find most mysterious is Gendo's line about how Yui has somehow been to the minus universe


Indeed. And not just to the minus universe, but to the Golgotha Object.

View Original PostKendrix wrote:Hence why Shinji is the same as the other "mock Lillim" but seems to have been born normally.


The "mock lilim" (リリンもどき) refers to how he too lost his humanity and became immune to the L-field (able to walk the red land), most likely as a result of exceeding the "safe" entry plug depth when he decided to rescue Rei during the battle against the 10th angel (Ritsuko warns against this). The same happens to Asuka when she is pulled deep by the 9th angel infecting her entry plug, but for some unexplained reason she is "further away" from lilim, and only needs to drink water, while Shinji is quantitatively more "lilim-like" that her, and still needs to eat food.

Mari too undergoes extreme plug depth when she activates mode The Beast, but it's clear that she stopped aging much earlier (she was Gendo/Yui's classmate) so this is not her first incident of such kind, it would appear.

So the bottom line is, I think Shinji was born normally, even if his parents/Nerv had "special plans" for him ("fate preordained" 運命を仕組まれた子供、in the words of e.g. Fuyutsuki, Kaworu, etc.)

View Original PostKendrix wrote:We all see Sachiel and Shamshel tho?
The four identical winged figures are probably the Adams, and this round thing handed to them may be the fruit of life


Yes; And if you look closely, you can see "Clockiel" in there too (The bottom, "pendulum" part).

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Re: Ancient beings, Seele and the Dead Sea Scrolls

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Postby Uriel93 » Sun Aug 15, 2021 11:13 am

pannetone83 on reddit laid out the scroll in a horizontal format that actually helps a lot to see:

Image
In the center of the non-hidden art on the scroll, you have the tree of life, sprouting from a seven-part source, where you can plainly see that two parts are seemingly removed - these seem pretty instantly to be the seven seeds of life sent forth by the FAR, same as what's revealed in the NGE2 game's Kaworu ending. On the left and right, you have the Angels and Lilin partaking in the fruit of life and fruit of knowledge respectively - with Unit 13 and the four Adams behind Sachiel in front (which seems odd, given that the "third angel" in the Rebuilds is the unnamed one - though it may have been discovered early, like the one in Magma Diver, and was meant to wake up later down the line), and presumably Unit 1 behind man on the other side, followed by four other figures.

Image
^Then you see the full image of the uv-revealed hidden art, with GNR/Black Lilith/? emerging from the Doors of Guf, the metaphorical and literal source of life, represented here in a pretty direct metaphor between the legs of a woman figure, who is holding up an arch in the sky above, accompanied by what seem to be the headless beings from the movie.

Super neat stuff~
Last edited by Uriel93 on Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ancient beings, Seele and the Dead Sea Scrolls

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Postby gchristnsn » Sun Aug 15, 2021 11:43 am

View Original Postandreh wrote:I made this thread to discuss about Seele nature and the God/Ancient Beings background in Shin Eva.


Theory: in the Rebuild Seele is just another sentient race bestowed with the fruit of wisdom that literally exists on Earth in the form of monoliths from A. C. Clarke "Space Odyssey 2001", as it was showing in the movie 3.0. Their goal is, probably to exterminate FAR (God which "they abandoned"), but Gendo's one is the deification of humanity, which principally differs from Seele's one. That is all which could be inferred about them.

It seems that "negative synchronization levels" in the entry plugs refer to the transfer to anti-Universe (this is also supported by Gendo's notion that LCL is the interface to anti-Universe), and such beings acquire angel-like or God-like level of existence, which is the essence of the "curse of EVA" (they do not age as a being with the fruit of life would do). Black-suited Ayanami may be a some kind of anti-Ayanami, since she disintegrated in the normal environment to LCL (Fuyutsuki desintegrated being exposed to LC-field).

Such level of existence may imply existence above the Universe and even time, which may explain why Ayanami can appear anywhere she wishes, pilots can travel to other plugs, etc. Tinkering with causality above the level of time may explain Kaworus's eternal circling.
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Re: Ancient beings, Seele and the Dead Sea Scrolls

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Postby mirakodus » Sun Aug 15, 2021 12:51 pm

My take on the picture from Dead Sea Scrolls:
Image

On the left side of the Tree of Life we have angels taking the Fruit of Life.
On the right side we have humans taking the Fruit of Knowledge.

We know that the adams are based from Ultraman episode Golgotha:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Ultraman/comments/jbmm7o/neon_genesis_evangelion_and_ultraman_connections/

https://ultra.fandom.com/wiki/Planet_Golgotha

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOZ0NSVnCLc

The thing is that there are five brothers fighting - 4 crucified and one fighting.
Image

In movie we have also five crosses - one seemingly off:
Image

I think what we see on the DSS are four adams and one that replace the orginal Adam from NGE TV in Rebuilds - Nabuchodonozor.
It seems he looks even simillar - google him in images.
Nebuchadnezzar's Key:
https://evangelion.fandom.com/wiki/Nebuchadnezzar%27s_Key

Kaji: Now, as I promised... The stored Lost Number, kept as a backup. The guidepost towards the unification of all souls unto God.
Gendo: Yes, used to open the door to Human Instrumentality... Nebuchadnezzar's Key.

So we have 4 adams needed to start Human Instrumentality and one back-up that have been lost in 2nd Impact.

One thing to notice: he has four arms - two with swords, one with double spear and one with some case? My guess is that awakened Eva-13 is some representation of this godly being.
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Re: Ancient beings, Seele and the Dead Sea Scrolls

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Postby Lacissal » Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:50 pm

View Original Postgchristnsn wrote: Theory: in the Rebuild Seele is just another sentient race bestowed with the fruit of wisdom that literally exists on Earth in the form of monoliths from A. C. Clarke "Space Odyssey 2001", as it was showing in the movie 3.0. Their goal is, probably to exterminate FAR (God which "they abandoned"), but Gendo's one is the deification of humanity, which principally differs from Seele's one. That is all which could be inferred about them.


Gendo outright states what SEELE's plan is, to accept one of the destinies God gave to humanity, of exterminating the angels but humanity taking their place under God.

To humanity, who ate of the Fruit of Knowledge, God handed down two destinies. Be destroyed by the Angels bestowed with the Fruit of Life; or annihilate the Angels, supplant them, and turn ourselves into children of God, existing eternally without wisdom. We must choose one, or the other.
Nerv's Human Instrumentality Project is a resistance -- using the Adams -- to the God of Seele, they who chose the latter destiny. However ephemeral, it's something worth doing in full

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Re: Ancient beings, Seele and the Dead Sea Scrolls

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Postby Raikyu » Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:54 pm

Just like others said, the huge wings of "Unit-13" in the DSS, remind me the Nazca-like drawing in the calvany base:

Image

What if the drawing is something like a body outline (like those on crime scenes), marking the place where "the survivor of the Adams" was found?

Speaking about body outlines, I completely forgot that there was another outline in 1.0 too:

Image

I don't know if they really represent the Adams, but I remember a tweet from one of the producers saying that "1.0 contains a spoiler of Shin" and everybody speculated that we was talking about the outline. There is definitely a pattern here

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Re: Ancient beings, Seele and the Dead Sea Scrolls

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Postby Kendrix » Sun Aug 15, 2021 2:01 pm

As for the EVA 13-like "Godly Being" - It is repeatedly stated that EVA 13 is "in the form of a god".

Perhaps that means that EVA 13 is an artificial FAR.
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Re: Ancient beings, Seele and the Dead Sea Scrolls

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Postby RussianRiz » Sun Aug 15, 2021 2:18 pm

What about Yui? She resembles a lot Lilith in her appearances.
SPOILER: Show
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Last edited by RussianRiz on Sun Aug 15, 2021 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ancient beings, Seele and the Dead Sea Scrolls

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Postby Raikyu » Sun Aug 15, 2021 2:20 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:As for the EVA 13-like "Godly Being" - It is repeatedly stated that EVA 13 is "in the form of a god".

Perhaps that means that EVA 13 is an artificial FAR.

Well, Mari calls Eva-13 "one of the surviving Adams", so I'm not sure if its related to the FAR. Unless NERV and SEELE label everything that is more godly than an angel as Adams.


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