Ancient beings, Seele and the Dead Sea Scrolls

[gchristnsn]

Gendo outright states what SEELE's plan is...

Unfortunately, there is nothing in this quote that tells that this is Seele's plan. And since there are other plans (Geondo's and Yui's), it definitely should be different from them.

[Konja7]

Unfortunately, there is nothing in this quote that tells that this is Seele's plan. And since there are other plans (Geondo's and Yui's), it definitely should be different from them.

This part mentioned SEELE's plan:

Nerv's Human Instrumentality Project is a resistance -- using the Adams -- to the God of Seele, they who chose the latter destiny. However ephemeral, it's something worth doing in full.

SEELE's Instrumentality plan was the second choice left by the Gods: Humanity killing the Angels and taking their places (as creatures with Fruit of Life, but without Fruit of Knowledge).

The English sub by Amazon are even more clear about this too.


Instead, Gendo wants to fight the Gods. His Instrumentality is different.

[DantesInferno]

Gendo outright states what SEELE's plan is, to accept one of the destinies God gave to humanity, of exterminating the angels but humanity taking their place under God.

To humanity, who ate of the Fruit of Knowledge, God handed down two destinies. Be destroyed by the Angels bestowed with the Fruit of Life; or annihilate the Angels, supplant them, and turn ourselves into children of God, existing eternally without wisdom. We must choose one, or the other.
Nerv's Human Instrumentality Project is a resistance -- using the Adams -- to the God of Seele, they who chose the latter destiny. However ephemeral, it's something worth doing in full

I'm still debating myself about this translation.
In particular, I'm not sure where the "using the Adams" part fits in.

Depending on how you choose to group the "relative clauses", insert commas/spaces, it can be taken to mean slightly different things.

From the Japanese Close Captioning, it is split literally as follows:

ネルフの人類補完計画は—
後者を選んだゼーレの
アダムスを利用した
神への儚いレジスタンスだが
果たすだけの価値がある

The translation that makes the most sense to me, right now, is perhaps:

Nerv's Human Instrumentality Project is Seele's resistance to God, by using the Adams - Seele, who chose the latter

(Japanese grammar allows to insert the "who chose the Adams" modifier immediately before "Seele", without having to break the sentence like in the English above with two separate occurrences of "Seele").

Alternatively, 神を利用した ("using the Adams") can be taken as modifying God, not The Resistance, to give:

Nerv's Human Instrumentality Project is Seele's resistance to the Adams-wielding God - Seele, who chose the latter

(the "ephemeral... however still worth trying" part in uncontroversial and omitted from the above analysis)

In any case, in order for "Seele's" being a modifier of "God", the "by using the Adams" part, which stands in the middle, must modify God too (not Resistance).
So if it is "Seele's God", then "God used the Adams".

And conversely (?) if it is the Resistance that uses the Adams, it's not "resistance to Seele's God", but rather "Seele's resistance to God".

does it make sense? I need an aspi-ririn...


By the way, the actual English subtitles on Amazon Prime are:

NERV's Human Instrumentality Project was the product

of Seele choosing the latter,
a feeble resistance against the Gods

by employed the powers of Adams (sic)

Nevertheless,
a worthwile cause to persue

Here, the ungrammatical "by employed the powers of Adams" makes an interpretation difficult.

And the English Close Captioning (CC) is:

NERV's Human Instrumentality Project

was the product of Seele choosing the latter

a feeble resistance against the Gods
that employed the powers of Adam,

nevertheless,
a worthwile cause to persue

Here, "that employed the powers of Adam" could either refer to the "Gods" immediately before, or (more likely) to the Human Instrumentality Project, given the tense match between "was" and "employed".

[Lacissal]

Thank you, I don't have the Amazon subtitles to hand so was using the rough translations from Arqa Apocrypha for convenience.

I did languages at University and even my head's spinning lol . Though the 'if it's SEELE's God, then God must be the one using the power of the Adams, if it's the Resistance using the Adams, then it must be SEELE's resistence to God' part is clear.

The translation that makes the most sense to me, right now, is perhaps:

Nerv's Human Instrumentality Project is Seele's resistance to God, by using the Adams - Seele, who chose the latter

From contextual evidence (and my complete lack of knowledge of Japanese grammar) the SEELE's God/God using the power of the Adams' modifier would make the most sense.

Is there any way 'Seele, who chose the latter' in Japanese wouldn't be refering to the earlier part of Gendo's statement where he says (rough paraphrase):
-to Humanity, God handed two destinies
-be destroyed by the angels or destroy the angels and supplant them as children of god
-we must choose one or the other

If 'chose the latter' is unambiguous/uncontroversial, then it follows that SEELE being in resistence to God would be inconsistent with what Gendo just said. As the description of the resistence as 'weak/feeble/fleeting'-a 'weak resistence' that employed 'the power of the Adams' against God makes less sense than a 'weak resistance' against a God 'that employed the power/wielded the Adams'

ie
God gives mankind two fates
Seele accepts the latter (becoming servants of god)
Nerv/Gendo's Instrumentality Project (resistence) is a result of this choice

From the context of the rest of the film- Gendo and Fuyutsuki (ie NERV) carrying out a Fourth Impact that Misato and Ritsuko note as drastically different from SEELE's scenario, pretty much everything Gendo does in this film, the Wunder/BuSe's keel laying inscription describing it as part of the Guardians of Guf class (Ritsuko in the same part just mentioned also states there that the ships were built to guard the gate, and Mari later identifies the ships with the Adams) and SEELE 'choosing the latter', etc making it Seele's resistence to God/the resistence using the Adams would create huge narrative issues, while the English translations fudging who is using the power of the Adams from the Japanese is more explicable.

[DantesInferno]

From contextual evidence (and my complete lack of knowledge of Japanese grammar) the SEELE's God/God using the power of the Adams' modifier would make the most sense.

Yeah, makes sense.

Is there any way 'Seele, who chose the latter' in Japanese wouldn't be refering to the earlier part of Gendo's statement where he says (rough paraphrase):
-to Humanity, God handed two destinies
-be destroyed by the angels or destroy the angels and supplant them as children of god
-we must choose one or the other

No; it is pretty much unambiguous and definitive that "Seele chose destroying all the angels and supplant them as children of God"

If 'chose the latter' is unambiguous/uncontroversial, then it follows that SEELE being in resistence to God would be inconsistent with what Gendo just said. As the description of the resistence as 'weak/feeble/fleeting'-a 'weak resistence' that employed 'the power of the Adams' against God makes less sense than a 'weak resistance' against a God 'that employed the power/wielded the Adams'

This makes sense; i.e. Seele not resisting the Gods. But arguably Seele/Nerv qualify just as much as God for "using the Adams" (cue Mary's farewell to the sinking ships... WHATEVER THAT MEANT).

ie
God gives mankind two fates
Seele accepts the latter (becoming servants of god)
Nerv/Gendo's Instrumentality Project (resistence) is a result of this choice

And then on top of that, Wille "resists" Nerv's plan. The plot is thick.

From the context of the rest of the film- Gendo and Fuyutsuki (ie NERV) carrying out a Fourth Impact that Misato and Ritsuko note as drastically different from SEELE's scenario, pretty much everything Gendo does in this film, the Wunder/BuSe's keel laying inscription describing it as part of the Guardians of Guf class (Ritsuko in the same part just mentioned also states there that the ships were built to guard the gate, and Mari later identifies the ships with the Adams) and SEELE 'choosing the latter', etc making it Seele's resistence to God/the resistence using the Adams would create huge narrative issues, while the English translations fudging who is using the power of the Adams from the Japanese is more explicable.

I think from the last official English sub I posted (the CC) we can settle for "Seele chose the latter option, and because of that, NERV (who wasn't on board with Seele's plan) resisted God using the Adams"...? So Seele don't resist God, but NERV does resist God (and Seele).

[gchristnsn]

So Seele don't resist God, but NERV does resist God (and Seele).

Seele does and does not resist God, there is a contradiction in this very phrase .

This is from the 3.0

01:16:16
Gendo:

The time to amend the Dead Sea Scrolls has come.
This is farewell.
Though you have also changed the form of your souls, you are still creatures who have tasted the Fruit of Knowledge.
Though you could have lived for an eternity, you cannot escape the fate of death, just like us.
In order to advance the evolution of a race burdened by death, you gave us the gift of civilization.
On behalf of mankind, I thank you.
Let death send your souls back to where they belong.
I will execute your longstanding desire, the Human Instrumentality Project, as well as the Killing of God that you have all abandoned.
Rest assured.

Seele:
Our wishes have already been granted.
Good. All is well now.
We wish for the complemented perfection of mankind, and the peaceful purification of souls.

Maybe Seele also wants and does not want that some god should exist at the same time? Such a contradictory organization.

Obviously, the dead sea scrolls, being an artifact of God, would not assume any atrocities towards it, which the amendment mentioned above may mean.
As in the original, dead sea scrolls plan may mean just purification of the souls (bestowing united humanity with the fruit of life and freeing it from the fruit of wisdom), but in the Rebuild we can not know for sure what Seele true goal is. Although, their inclination implies that no (sentient) god should exist.

[Konja7]

Seele does and does not resist God, there is a contradiction in this very phrase .

I guess DantesInferno means Gendo when he says NERV. After all, in 3.0+1.0, Gendo and Fuyutsuki are the only people left from NERV.

Maybe Seele also wants and does not want that some god should exist at the same time? Such a contradictory organization.

I think the point is that SEELE has abandoned any wish to kill/fight/oppose that God. That's why SEELE chose the "peaceful" second option (of humanity killing Angels and taking their place)

SEELE allows Gendo to kill them in Q, because the Fourth Impact has started. SEELE also has Shinji as backup to mantain the Fourth Impact even after Kaworu killed himself to stop the Fourth Impact.

Gendo's Instrumentality (which oppose to God) couldn't happen if the Fourth Impact in Q wasn't stopped.

[DantesInferno]

I guess DantesInferno means Gendo when he says NERV. After all, in 3.0+1.0, Gendo and Fuyutsuki are the only people left from NERV.

You (Konja7) are right. What I Meant is: Seele submits to God's plan, but Nerv(Gendo) rebels against both God and Seele.

SEELE allows Gendo to kill them in Q, because the Fourth Impact has started. SEELE also has Shinji as backup to mantain the Fourth Impact even after Kaworu killed himself to stop the Fourth Impact.
Gendo's Instrumentality (which oppose to God) couldn't happen if the Fourth Impact in Q wasn't stopped.

We also learn that in this continuity, instrumentality involves giving away the fruit of knowledge in exchange for obtaining the fruit of life, so there's no risk of "becoming gods". I wonder if the parties involved simply aren't interested in acquiring both fruits, or there is some physical circumstance that prevents it, and you have to choose one.

[Raikyu]

We also learn that in this continuity, instrumentality involves giving away the fruit of knowledge in exchange for obtaining the fruit of life, so there's no risk of "becoming gods". I wonder if the parties involved simply aren't interested in acquiring both fruits, or there is some physical circumstance that prevents it, and you have to choose one.

I think that there isn't anything preventing the forbidden union of both fruits. SEELE is a fundamentalist group, so they won't commit such sacrilege, while Gendo wants to rebel against the rules defined by the "Gods" and acquire both fruits.

[gchristnsn]

Seele submits to God's plan

But this contradicts the underlined quote above.

I think that there isn't anything preventing the forbidden union of both fruits.

Absolutely, they did this several times during the course of the story.

SEELE is a fundamentalist group, so they won't commit such sacrilege,

But this also contradicts the underlined quote above. And it seems that they are non-human in the Rebuild, as the quote from 3.0 above suggests.

while Gendo wants to rebel against the rules defined by the "Gods" and acquire both fruits.

Absolutely.

Seele just do not want God (i.e. FAR, or maybe even any other sentient equivalent, but this only logically follows from the point that Gendo's and Seele plans should differ, which was pointed out several times, even at the end of the ritual in 4.0). Assuming that they have a powerful hacking system and various stubs in the control systems of Evangelions, who knows what the final result may be.

[Konja7]

But this contradicts the underlined quote above.

Do you mean this line:

I will execute your longstanding desire, the Human Instrumentality Project, as well as the Killing of God that you have all abandoned.

Gendo seems to be saying that SEELE had abandoned the wish to kill God. That seems to imply SEELE had submitted to God.

Gendo will realize an Human Instrumentality Project, but it's different from the one that SEELE planned.

[Raikyu]

He also starts that speech by saying something like "The Dead Sea Scrolls were revised", implying that is diverging from what was established by the scrolls and that SEELE was following religiously.

[BernardoCairo]

I just merged the threads "Dead Sea Scroll from Shin" and "Ancient beings, Seele and the Dead Sea Scrolls". I guess this is my new hobby. Thanks for the suggestion, Pluto!

[yeahnahbut]

Are the scrolls written in Sumerian? Could they be translated? :O

I actually have an Assyriologist friend who I immediately thought to ask to have a look (though even if you're a professional, translating Akkadian or Sumerian is still quite a hard slog).

Just noticed something from the scrolls. I am no Assyriologist but I did notice what I think is the word "star" being repeated in both top and bottom bodies of cuneiform. The lyrics of "prettiest star" definitely refer to the scroll.

[Lacissal]

Two quick points from looking at the Japanese script for 3.0

Gendo doesn't say 'it's time to revise the Dead Sea Scrolls' but something along the lines of 'it's time to revise the Dead Sea Scrolls contract'

死海文書の契約改定の時が来ました

契約改定- Keiyaku kaitei- 'contract revision'

It's a small but important difference as the English translation (are you using the Theatrical or the Home release version?) drops the 'contract'- the other times we hear contract in Rebuild is from SEELE in 1.0:

ゼーレ06「使徒殲滅はリリスとの契約の極一部に過ぎん」
Seele 06 "The annihilation of the apostles is only a small part of the contract with Lilith."

I can't find a Japanese script so this is from a Japanese fan site. Can't find a transcription but listening to the last scene of 1.0 with Kaworu and Kiel I think Kiel says 'Keiyaku' for what's translated as 'Covenant' for 'the time of the covenant (contract) is close at hand.'

Gendo is talking about the pact with Lilith for carrying out the Dead Sea Scrolls, not the Scrolls themselves, as 'Keiyaku' seems to be used consistently to refer to the 'contract' of carrying out the DSS on behalf of Lilith.

For 'killing the God you (Seele) have abandoned'

01:17:15 {ゲンドウ}　　　諦観された神殺しは、私が行います

The phrase 'God Killing' (kami-goroshi) is also used earlier in Q by Ritsuko about the Wunder:

これが神殺しの力

From what we know about Wille (and what they know about Impacts, the Scrolls, SEELE etc) in this context it likely refers to the power to kill awakened Eva units. In this sense, Gendo could be talking about killing the Mark.06 or Lilith, the former being compared to a 'real' or 'true' god by Fuyutsuki:

And that's the Mark 06?
00:57:25,020 So they've finally decided they want to create a real god instead of false ones.

In Rebuild 'God' is used inconsistently and probably needs to be understood in each context.. Gendo's speech about his plans to Misato in Shin is likely referring to God with a capital G/the Gods/those who left things behind in the Anti-Universe/Eva Imaginary/Uber Yui (?) will in other cases, like how the Mark.06 or Eva 13 are refered to, 'divine being' is a better fit.


Also from 2.0:

There are likely still undisclosed Apocrypha of the Dead Sea Scrolls.
00:20:47,030 Seele intends to follow their script based on those writings.
00:20:51,750 But even Seele must be aware of Nerv's ultimate goal at this point.
00:20:57,210 Even if they are, we have but to follow our own path.
00:21:02,010 Though it may mean turning against the Word of God

[N1CK0]

Just noticed something from the scrolls. I am no Assyriologist but I did notice what I think is the word "star" being repeated in both top and bottom bodies of cuneiform. The lyrics of "prettiest star" definitely refer to the scroll.

It is called DINGIR (the one that is four "strokes" that create a star) and it used near names to indicate the status as deity. Of course as a pictogram it is used to represent the stars.

This also help us indentify the language since only in Sumerian the DINGIR is written like that.

[DantesInferno]

Great analysis, @Lacissal!

For 'killing the God you (Seele) have abandoned'
01:17:15 {ゲンドウ}　　　諦観された神殺しは、私が行います

I thin this should translate as "The god-slaying that has been given up, I will carry out"

The phrase 'God Killing' (kami-goroshi) is also used earlier in Q by Ritsuko about the Wunder:
これが神殺しの力

I've said this a few times already, but 神殺し used to refer to the Wunder is a concrete noun that perhaps corresponds to "God Killer", whereas its use by
Gendo never refers to the ship and instead to a "step" in the contract/instrumentality, so it's an abstract noun better translated as "the killing of God".

There is an ambiguity in Japanese between these two different meanings that are spelled the same, and is lost in translation.

It still does not explain what the "killing of God" entails, or why the Wunder is called the "God killer" (other than being able to defeat the Mark.04 series...)

[Pluto]

I've said this a few times already, but 神殺し used to refer to the Wunder is a concrete noun that perhaps corresponds to "God Killer", whereas its use by
Gendo never refers to the ship and instead to a "step" in the contract/instrumentality, so it's an abstract noun better translated as "the killing of God".

There is an ambiguity in Japanese between these two different meanings that are spelled the same, and is lost in translation.

It still does not explain what the "killing of God" entails, or why the Wunder is called the "God killer" (other than being able to defeat the Mark.04 series...)

They really glazed over this nuance in the translation.

[Kendrix]

Thanks for the clarifications here!

[DantesInferno]

They really glazed over this nuance in the translation.

Gendo even uses phrases such as "I will carry over the kamigoroshi", signaling that it's definitely an abstract noun that refers to an action.