Shikinami: Did we just get Ocean's Twelved?

[duppertip]

I think Kensuke is more of a father figure/emotional support figure for Asuka than someone she's in a romantic relationship with. The "walking around naked" thing also seems to be some sort of an Asuka quality.

I don't think that Asuka and Kensuke are a pairing that dated and had love relationship.

However, I don't quite see Kensuke as a mentor figure to her or as a "dad" of sorts. That's somewhat alienating him from her...

A friend, trusted one, is something that Kensuke ends up being for her. He looks after her as after a friend that is doing wrong things with life. Perhaps one of a few friends and... it may be a joke, but his creepy photo thing and generally interest in Asuka may have drawn him closer to her. Then things developed where they built trust and rely on each other. And, perhaps, they will make a relationship and family later... which isn't really that important as that is the fate of 28yo Shikinami.

Also-very nice post there, duppertip! It goes a bit too heavy on the interconnection thing in my opinion, but NTE is obviously rather meta and about NGE in a lot of ways, so the general feeling is absolutely truthful and the other points you made were quite good.

I think that some points may be wrong, but it is interesting to lay out most possibilities.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

[However, I don't quite see Kensuke as a mentor figure to her or as a "dad" of sorts. That's somewhat alienating him from her...

I mean, uh, neither have I? We haven't seen the movie yet, so we literally can't see anyone in Shin Eva as anything just yet. All we can do is overhear second-hand accounts and speculate as to how we would feel seeing the movie. (Which, ya know, is ultimately all we can do until the movie gets an international release.)

[Pen-Pen02]

I haven't seen the movie yet, but I dare say that Anno got tired of Asuka somehow and he didn't know how to "get rid" of her anymore without Asuka's fan base getting mad at him. I mean, the Rebuild movies could just have worked very well without her, because with Mari it was enough to fight angels or Nerv, even EVA02 synchronized very well with her, so no one would miss Asuka. If Asuka had been omitted, then in reality very little would have changed the general story (in 2.0, Asuka didn't interact almost at all with Shinji and her sacrifice didn't make much difference, as did Rei 2 and in 3.0 film Asuka only comes out fighting and that Mari could well have done it alone).

Rebuild from the beginning was Rei and Shinji's story and this was understandable (I was even surprised that she didn't stay with Shinji, but that's another topic to be discussed). Rei was always very popular in Japan and, for years, Rei's character deserved to be explored much better and I liked the ending they gave to Rei Q, because she finally found her humanity without depending on someone to tell her what to do ( Gendou, Shinji). That kind of evolution I expected in Asuka, I wanted see her better and no longer as the tsundere girl who only reacted with violence and bitterness, but until the end the time that has elapsed has not been enough for her.

I think Anno over time felt "ashamed" of having considered Asuka as his favorite character, that is, a young tsundere with violent attitudes that, nowadays, many animes take as a fetish for their stories. There are as many tsunderes as there are anime stories and, in many cases, the tsunderes are the protagonists of them and the ones that usually stay with the protagonist, somehow normalizing that mistreatment is okay, because tsunderes are "adorable" for many fans. In truth, Asuka Sohryu was cloned, but not in the Shikinami series, but in all those other protagonists of all those stories who have wanted to emulate her.

We are living in a time of politically correct affairs, in defense of non-violence and to make Asuka stay with Shinji would have been a kind of "prize" to a character with many internal emotional problems and who mistreated the protagonist during the old history of EVA. Instead, Anno brought us a "likeable" character, carefree, with perhaps better fighting qualities than Asuka and a more striking body so that EVA fans could turn their eyes to her and gain favoritism from them ( someone who is supposed to be original, but who in the end is another flirty cliche neko character). I think that, despite this, Mari could have functioned much better if she had had another role within EVA and not be Asuka's "replacement" in this story, as many fans already expected the best outcome for their favorite characters and not another character added. Many fans I think they took Mari as a support character for Asuka and they took a liking to her precisely because of it, but in the end she ended up being that character that displaces her in every way and I don't know if Asuka fans will continue to keep that initial affection for Mari, although I don't think Anno will be too concerned about that.

On the other hand, doing the replacement exercise but in reverse, if we omit Mari and totally give her role to Asuka, then Mari would not have been necessary at all. And it's that Anno deep down loves Asuka and at the same time not. It seems like that divorced man after a long marriage who now wants to rebuild his life and is looking for a woman similar to the one he has left, but without the defects of the previous one and he did with Mari.

Now, from all the spoilers I've read, many fans consider Kensuke to be like a relative to Asuka. I haven't seen the movie but I think Kensuke is more than that. I think he was Asuka's partner at one point but not anymore. I mean, Asuka managed to save herself and maybe it took her a few months to recover. She had enough time to meet Kensuke, get to know him more, take refuge in him, and have an affair together at some point, for example, she might look like a 14-year-old but Kensuke would be 15, then 16, and 17, so physical appearance and age difference still wouldn't be a problem to be together in that time. However, it is obvious that EVA's curse then separates them, but that is not an impediment to later being good friends. They may even have repressed their feelings due to Asuka's problem, but I think that remained, since until now they have been frequenting each other. That end of Asuka, being fired by Shinji and finding herself free of that "curse" at last, without the angel possessing her and with her adult body, makes her free to look for Kensuke again and maybe resume that romance that they left on hiatus for a long time. Therefore, as soon as she saw herself change, Asuka is expelled from the EVA and seeks to live her own life. At least that feeling is what is perceived.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

[...]

Can you, uh, provide a source for all this stuff regarding Anno's hatred of Asuka? Like, you clearly have some strong feelings about this, but I feel like you might be projecting Western cultural zeitgeists and social patters onto a Japanese film reflecting Japanese cultural zeitgeists and social patters. Like, Japan was always full of super polite people compared to, say, my American counterparts for as long as anime has been internationally popular, so I'm not quite sure that what we call "Political Correctness" is anything new to the Japanese. They seem to have lived with it, thrived in it, and succeeded in all of their professional dealing by it.

[Konja7]

Rebuild from the beginning was Rei and Shinji's story and this was understandable (I was even surprised that she didn't stay with Shinji, but that's another topic to be discussed). Rei was always very popular in Japan and, for years, Rei's character deserved to be explored much better and I liked the ending they gave to Rei Q, because she finally found her humanity without depending on someone to tell her what to do ( Gendou, Shinji). That kind of evolution I expected in Asuka, I wanted see her better and no longer as the tsundere girl who only reacted with violence and bitterness, but until the end the time that has elapsed has not been enough for her.

In fact, although Rei Q develop herself due to the people on the Village, she still feels an instinctive attachment to Shinji (Ayanamis were created to feel that toward Shinji).

It is Rei II who move on from Shinji at the end.

[Pen-Pen02]

[...]

Can you, uh, provide a source for all this stuff regarding Anno's hatred of Asuka? Like, you clearly have some strong feelings about this, but I feel like you might be projecting Western cultural zeitgeists and social patters onto a Japanese film reflecting Japanese cultural zeitgeists and social patters. Like, Japan was always full of super polite people compared to, say, my American counterparts for as long as anime has been internationally popular, so I'm not quite sure that what we call "Political Correctness" is anything new to the Japanese. They seem to have lived with it, thrived in it, and succeeded in all of their professional dealing by it.

I have not said in any case that Anno hates Asuka, I said that I think he got tired of her character somehow, which is something very different. It's my opinion. I even say that he has a love-hate relationship with her, because he has not benefited her so much in this latest installment of his films and that's fine, he's the author of EVA and he can do with his story and characters what he considers most appropriate... however, he has not dared to use Sohryu in the Rebuild movies, but Shikinami, so anything that can happen to Shikinami does not affect the "original Asuka". It's as I tell you, just my opinions and assumptions that I share, may or may not be true, but they are comments to share.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Gotcha. Thanks for the clarification.

[Pen-Pen02]

Rebuild from the beginning was Rei and Shinji's story and this was understandable (I was even surprised that she didn't stay with Shinji, but that's another topic to be discussed). Rei was always very popular in Japan and, for years, Rei's character deserved to be explored much better and I liked the ending they gave to Rei Q, because she finally found her humanity without depending on someone to tell her what to do ( Gendou, Shinji). That kind of evolution I expected in Asuka, I wanted see her better and no longer as the tsundere girl who only reacted with violence and bitterness, but until the end the time that has elapsed has not been enough for her.

In fact, although Rei Q develop herself due to the people on the Village, she still feels an instinctive attachment to Shinji (Ayanamis were created to feel that toward Shinji).

It is Rei II who move on from Shinji at the end.

I really liked that Rei in the Rebuild movies became a better character and it was great to see her continue with her life, I liked the new development Anno gave her, even if it was very brief. On the other hand, the feeling towards Shinji whether imposed or not was still there in her, but it was no longer "dependent", but was very pure. Finally, Rei didn't depend on him and move on experiencing new things and living her own life on the village.

[BernardoCairo]

I think Anno over time felt "ashamed" of having considered Asuka as his favorite character, that is, a young tsundere with violent attitudes that, nowadays, many animes take as a fetish for their stories.

That's a bold statement. I believe that we can't really tell what's inside Anno's head. I mean, we don't even know the guy. However, I don't understand why he would be ashamed of Asuka.
Soryu's entire point, from the get go, was to deconstruct the tsundere archetype. In episode 8, we are greeted to a girl that is smart, confident and powerful. She also acts accordingly, by being cocky and loud (typical anime stuff). However, as the story continues, this "perfect girl" mask continues to break more and more. Eventually, everything left for Asuka can be summed up as misery. Her tsundere side was never romanticized. On the contrary, it was portrayed as self-destructive, to say the least. Once you know about her condition, it is impossible to watch the series in the same way as before. Traces of her mental instability can be found in almost every episode she's in (including the one she debuted in). It all culminates in the amazing/horrific episode 22.
That said, Asuka goes through a process of maturing throughout the narrative. Not only does she solve her problems with Kyouko, but also shows enough willpower to stay alive as an individual. In addition, she seems to be on the right track in relation to her relationship with Shinji and his incalculable flaws (offering him affection and acceptance, rather than aggression). She grew up in a very natural and cohesive way and doesn't represent in any way these "soulless" tsunderes that we see in some current anime-related materials. To put it into words, there is nothing to be ashamed of here. Anno wrote an exceptional, grounded and relatable character.
So why did Asuka have her role mitigated in NTE? Well, because this is basically Shinji's show right now. We are talking about movies. There is no time to explore each of the characters in the cast. To be honest, almost everyone lost significance here. Misato, for example, went from being a protagonist to playing a mere supporting role in the story. After rewatching JO last night, I was truly surprised at how little time Ayanami had on the screen. My memories were completely twisted! That's a movie clearly built from Shinji's perspective of what's happening. Honestly, I'm really pleased with how much Anno thought about Asuka while rebuilding her personality for this new story (basically creating a new character with different struggles to overcome).
Is she as important as before? Not at all. However, considering the nature of these movies, that's "okay" to me. I believe there was care behind the complete overhaul we saw of her character. As far as I can tell, Shikinami's ending also seems to be sweet (with her finally being able to grow up, accept herself and find someone she can truly be close to).
Anyway, I'm not saying that you are wrong, or anything. As I said before, it is impossible to know what's going through Anno's head. That's just my subjective view on it.

[Xenoblade]

I don't think Anno is ashamed of Asuka as a character or wants to drop her like a bad habit. He may not give her the time or the role many of us would have liked to see in the rebuilds, but that's not necessarily the same thing.

In a way she could be the hardest one for him to move on from in 3.0+1.0, because she seems hard for Shinji to move on from. This would make sense if she was still Anno's favourite. Unfortunately, moving on from Evangelion means moving on from her.

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

I'll have to go back and check, but searching my memory, there's not really much here-- unless we want to think that her usage of "Lilin" in Q is meant to not just be about her angelic nature but also alluding to that she's a clone. I think a lot of scenes from the earlier movies will play differently now (someone's mentioned the elevator slap scene, and most of Asuka's interactions with Rei in general will probably be worth reexamining) but I don't think there was necessarily anything leading up to this.

I also don't think there had to, to be frank. Oceans 12 seems like a strange comparison since the whole point of that movie was the heist, whereas Asuka being a clone seems something more significant to her character, less to the story as a whole. (Yes, I know Gendo makes a note about Asuka and Rei being 'series' meant to help bring about events as they occur, but this is a plot point overall localized to TuaT and doesn't appear in Jo, Ha, or Q where Asuka is serving Nerv or Wille, not Gendo or SEELE.)

I don't think we've been teased with Asuka being X all this time and she was suddenly revealed to be Y. Contrived, maybe. But not like getting the rug pulled out from under us.

[Mr. Tines]

I have not said in any case that Anno hates Asuka, I said that I think he got tired of her character somehow, which is something very different.

The impression I gleaned from the CRC materials for Ha is that it was Tsurumaki who was the Asuka advocate, after things had gotten to the point where the rest of the team had effectively replaced her with Mari, with Anno just sitting back from the fray.

Soryu's entire point, from the get go, was to deconstruct the tsundere archetype. In episode 8, we are greeted to a girl that is smart, confident and powerful. She also acts accordingly, by being cocky and loud (typical anime stuff).

There's a common plot where a couple are just forming up, and a brash outsider comes in and breaks up the incipient romance, until, later, when True Love wins the day in the end; a form which NGE subverts by having everything collapse around them instead.

[ChaddyManPrime]

The impression I gleaned from the CRC materials for Ha is that it was Tsurumaki who was the Asuka advocate, after things had gotten to the point where the rest of the team had effectively replaced her with Mari, with Anno just sitting back from the fray.

Did they talk about why they were so against Asuka?

[Mr. Tines]

Did they talk about why they were so against Asuka?

I think it was simply that Mari was a blank canvas, while Asuka carried plenty of baggage.

[ChaddyManPrime]

I think it was simply that Mari was a blank canvas, while Asuka carried plenty of baggage.

Weird logic

[Jäeger]

Did they talk about why they were so against Asuka?

I think it was simply that Mari was a blank canvas, while Asuka carried plenty of baggage.

Baggage? Like Shinji or Rei. And the blank canvas ended blank. Still, someone (any Anno's advocate) will call it "modern art"

So cut her (Asuka), get the guts, move on, prove me. But, oh, the merchandise (the eva curse, what a lame excuse ).

Instead, we got both : the coprotagonist and love interest of NGE mistreated (and being more tsundere than in her previous incarnation) and a ridiculous character with zero development and privileges ("It's not bad writing, It's meta!!!!", "So you admit it doesn't work without NGE's existence?").

Somebody pointed (rightly) in another post that Anno has treated Asuka like an annoying ex girlfriend. I do agree.

[ChaddyManPrime]

^
Jäeger, who you complaining to, buddy?

[Jäeger]

^
Jäeger, who you complaining to, buddy?

Life It was just a figure of speech hahaha

Not who, but the writing choices . That's what happens when you don't have a real plan.

[FXArmaros98]

Life It was just a figure of speech hahaha

Yes, I can understand a little this feeling of yours regarding certain choices made by Anno for this film although I think i'd better wait to see me the whole movie before i get my opinion to agree on this movie is really as bad as some people say or really as good as others say.

Not who, but the writing choices .

To be honest I don't think I can say 100% that I agree to disagree with you at least until I've seen the movie. Some people have even defined it more over the top than ANIMA. OK seeing the spoilers I can understand the comparison because of how much crazy science fiction Anno seems to have put into this film but still certain parallels with ANIMA were already present in 2.0. I'm not very angry about the possible Mari X Shinji ending, in fact I'm a little happy that Anno did something that a lot of people would never have expected of him and at the same time I'm annoyed because Mari should have spent a lot more time with Shinji in the movies. precedents to justify such a thing. My God for me before this movie also Misato and Kaji's son and Toji and Hikari's daughter were things I would only see in certain fan-fiction.I think when I see it I will like this movie even though it really looks like fan fiction from what we have seen in the spoilers

[BernardoCairo]

There's a common plot where a couple are just forming up, and a brash outsider comes in and breaks up the incipient romance, until, later, when True Love wins the day in the end; a form which NGE subverts by having everything collapse around them instead.

It's funny because, in the end, Asuka ends up being the female protagonist of the series and her relationship with Shinji is by far the most explored. Soryu truly is an unique character. I love how she simply changes everything! Asuka appears at a time when we are already getting used to the main cast of Evangelion and twists a lot of dynamics, while also introducing exciting new themes to the story! That said, this is done gradually and naturally, with each subsequent episode after Soryu's debut exploring her persona more and more. Saving her for later was a smart move and I'm really impressed with how well the writers were able to pull this off.

Jäeger
I can sympathize with your frustration, man. I'm not going to be a hypocritical liar here. Asuka's role in NTE does bother me. When I said I was "okay" with it, I didn't mean I was necessarily "happy". It's more about acceptance than anything else. That's simply how these movies work, I guess. It's funny because I have nothing against the way Shikinami was chosen to be portrayed as a character. On the contrary, I find her to be quite interesting! Turn Asuka into an introvert? That's unique and I'm opened for it! That said, I believe she could have been better implemented in the story.
It all comes from the nature of HA as a movie. In my opinion, it jiggles with too many ideas at the same time. Don't get me wrong, it is a pleasant experience and some of its themes are fun. However, they are not given the proper time to breath. Asuka piloting Unit 03? Man, that's a good concept and the sequence turned out to be amazing! However, it could have been even better if Shikinami and Shinji had shared more scenes together at the beginning of the movie. I can tell that there is something going on between these two, but their bond could definitely be more fleshed out.
It is different from JO, you know. As it stands right now, this is my favorite NTE movie. It is clearly focused on Shinji's perspective of what's happening and that works amazingly! Characters like Misato, Ayanami and Toji lose significance, but that really isn't an issue. Firstly, the film doesn't rely on them to evoke emotions out of me. Secondly, I can still feel their presence in the story. Scope, that's the word. This film is aware of its limitations and works its themes around them. It's not perfect, but it's pretty good!