Shinji Character Analysis (2.0/3.0)

[Lucretius]

Rebuild Shinji is pretty much Walter White from Breaking Bad without the cool goatee or technical savvy. Wouldn't be surprised at this point if he had Aoba prison shanked or blackmailed Toji into building a meth lab with him. Which would all somehow be ostensibly "to save Ayanami."

[Kendrix]

Rebuild Shinji is pretty much Walter White from Breaking Baf without the cool goatee or technical savvy. Wouldn't be surprised at this point if he had Aoba prison shanked or blackmailed Toji into building a meth lab with him. Which would all somehow be ostensibly "to save Ayanami."

Now that's just unfairly twisting things out of context.
Snarking does not necessarily make you mature, objectice or more "enlightened"

This is simply not the treatment the narrative is giving that person; Sure we're meant to understand that Shinji fucked up big time, but in a "life lesson he has to learn"/ result of being not an adult yet -way, not in a "look at this filth and be repulsed- way.

If that was the perception we were supposed to have, this story wouldn't end with Kaworu and Mari, who were frequently used as mouthpieces for the philosophy talk the author wants to get across, leaving him some final words of guidance and telling him to find his peace somewhere; They (or at least, Mari) would be telling him what exactly he did wrong and how it will be his downfall if he doesn't repent.

Or the scene where Kaworu actually shows Shinji the destruction.

Shinji: But I had good intentions! I had no controll over this!
Kaworu: Yeah. That is true. but this bad thing here was, sadly, still a result of it. Try to find a way to fix it/ make up for it.

markedly NOT: Good intentions? No control? Yeah, try fooling your granny with that.

The point od much of the future dialogue becomes "What can Shinji do to deal/ live with that situation that has become his reality", what can he do, how can he deal with it, it considers his situatiuation something important, not something only he is privately whining about like your classic villain.


There is no elaborate "And this is why you are sick and wrong"-speech.

Again,

It is a story where the main character witnesses many horrors with his own eyes, but still tries to stand up again.
It is a story of will; a story of moving forward, if only just a little.
It is a story of fear, where someone who must face indefinite solitude fears reaching out to others, but still wants to try.

And this is what we saw in Q and 2.0, plain and simple. This is NOT intended to be an unsympathetic villain protagonist.


It's practically the same as when he charges Shamschel against Misato's orders, 'cept this time the battery wasn't on his side, and we all agree that was immature, but by no means ireedeemably evil and at least partially commendable in that he was trying to protect someome who used him as a punching bag.
Heck, this time, he was even really working with the big picture in mind.
That's exactly why he didn't surrender, because what if they lose that one chance, there's so much at stake.

That he would probably be happy if people talked to him again and that this was probably part of how he motivated himself to go on living doesn't negate that he also really wanted to save the world.

I mean, that one line where he's shocked at the state they found Lillith in and how everyone else's efforts went to waste makes it obvious that he does care. His mortification at the onset of 4I proves that he is NOT in any way completely indifferent.

Even what he says at the end of 2.0 amounts to "I'm not killing this angel (which was all he thought he was doing) for YOU, suckers" which is a legitimate sentiment to have when you got used as a weapon./ child soldier conscript with no regards to your feelings.

Not that I'm blaming the adults because, yeah, the alternative was poof end of the world, but you can't expect Shinji to be happy about it. You can expect him to go and fight the angel, but not to do it with a smile on his face, and much less to magically predict that trying to save a comerade, usually the good guy course of action, will somehow cause the end of the world.


It's easy to judge him from where we're standing, knowing the end results and all that. Saying that Re!Shinji is just a genocidal selfserving bastard is about as misled/not getting the point as saying that original!Shinji is "just a pussy who should man up and bed all the hot chicks."
He's a human being who isn't perfect and yes, liable to fall for some evil plots/traps that were devised specifically to manipulate his emotions.
He walked right into a trap that he could've recognized as such.
Yes, undeniably.
but that's it.

Notably, those who knew most about the plan and what it entailed (Mari ("Hang in, I'll get you out!"), Fuyutsuki, Kaworu) see him as something of a victim.

[esselfortium]

This is simply not the treatment the narrative is giving that person; Sure we're meant to understand that Shinji fucked up big time, but in a "life lesson he has to learn"/ result of being not an adult yet -way, not in a "look at this filth and be repulsed- way.

As was explained countless times during the 2.0 debates, the narrative treating something a certain way does not mean the viewer is under an obligation to agree with it.

[CJD]

As was explained countless times during the 2.0 debates, the narrative treating something a certain way does not mean the viewer is under an obligation to agree with it.

I couldn't agree more. On the other hand, though, the narrative is a wonderful way to discern character, especially with issues as vague as Shinji's hand in 3I. And on that note the narrative's pretty clear.

[Darkwing]

Sadly not everyone is going to percieve things as the creators intended. And even then, some are still just not going to agree. I have to wonder if they didn't overdo it with the sheer magnitude of Shinji's fuck up. Even before that a lot of people don't like Shinji, due to seeing him as, and I quote "A whiny bitch". If they were already negatively disposed towards him they won't be liking him now. And that's the people who are missing the point. You can see the point being made and dissagree with it. Some people do. They don't agree with Anno. Glass half full, or half empty?

[Lucretius]

I couldn't agree more. On the other hand, though, the narrative is a wonderful way to discern character, especially with issues as vague as Shinji's hand in 3I. And on that note the narrative's pretty cleavr.

Yup, the part where Shinji announces that he'll destroy the world to save Rei and then...destroys the world is indeed pretty clear.

To return to what Kendrix said earlier, if we're really meant to take Shinji as a sympathetic victim and not as his universe's Chairman Mao, that's a writing failure on the part of Khara, not a failure of my reading of the movie. It doesn't really matter if the other characters in-universe retain a naively misplaced faith in Sjinji's goodness; his actions give the lie to a sympathetic reading of him.

If the audience is really meant to take all of Shinji's "it's not my fault, bro" shtick at face value, it's a clumsy retcon at best. Nothing in 2.0 itself clearly indicates that he fidn't know whar he was doing during 3I.

[pwhodges]

Yup, the part where Shinji announces that he'll destroy the world [...] is indeed pretty clear.

Except that he doesn't.

[Kendrix]

Sadly not everyone is going to percieve things as the creators intended.

Yeah, but a few pages ago, someone was arguing that Shinji's line at the end of 2.0 and some background facts about Rei that by no way define her character entirely (again, there's also "Hope that people can understand each other" (which is implied to be the most fundamental thing there) and communication (Anno: "Oh heck, I made them communicate so much by ep 6! What am I gonna make her do the other 18 episodes?" ) as dominant themes) implied that we're meant to see him as a villain.

I was merely trying to refute that.

Of course he's supposed to have erred, but in the way that screwing some things up in part of growing up, in the same ways that he sometimes screwed up in the original.


He does never get to the point seen in EoE where he actually deliberately, fully knowingly decides to blast the world to hell - and haven't we already agreed that the incident EoE was wrong, but understandable given his circumstances ?

So how could he possibly get any worse than that in Rebuild, where he didn't sink as low yet?

Nothing in 2.0 itself clearly indicates that he fidn't know whar he was doing during 3I.

Er... what makes you think he DID know? No one told him that EVA could do that. He didn't see what was happening.
He was horrified at the desctruction Zeruel caused in the geofront.
As far as he knows, destroying Zeruel will save the world and nothing says he can't rip out his girlfriend as an extra prize.

As I said before, his words only amount to "I'm not doing it for you, suckers!"

Also, look at Q.
He didn't know what happened, he was utterly clueless.
When he sees the devastation, he's horrified, nearly goes mad on the spot and spends the rest of the movie curled into a ball/ agonizing about how this could possibly have been the result.

Also, the epic my-god-what-have-I-done moment during fourth impact.

Who's to say that wouldn't have been his exact same reaction if he'd actually SEEN the impact vortex back in 2.0?

How often has he said "I don't care bout this shit!" and then done a 180 when he saw the actual consequences? (as in 1.0 "If you don't do it, this injured girl will! - Mkay, I'll do it." or "If you don't do it, the planet may go poof - there he goes.)

It's easy to call "retcon" when your interpretation simply turned out to be false.

[esselfortium]

How often has he said "I don't care bout this shit!" and then done a 180 when he saw the actual consequences? (as in 1.0 "If you don't do it, this injured girl will! - Mkay, I'll do it." or "If you don't do it, the planet may go poof - there he goes.)

There is a bit of difference when in the first scenario, the stated outcome is prevented by Shinji's actions, and in the second scenario it is caused by Shinji's actions. And changing your mind about something after the fact does not exempt anyone from blame.

[Lucretius]

Because it apparently has to be said, NGE isn't a window into an alternate reality; it's a series of textual artifacts. Since 2.0 itself doesn't exculpate Shinji with respect to 3rd Impact, it's fair enough to call what 3.0 does a "retcon," in the same way that Darth Vader being Luke's father is also a "retcon."

And again, if we're not to infer any causal link at all between "I don't care about the world" and the start of 3rd Impact, then Anno has totally failed to understand hu-mans and the way they process moving picture entertainnents. And what exactky would Shinji be "atoning" for in 3.0 if he has no moral responsibility for 3rd Impact beyond being in the wrong place at the wrong time?

[Darkwing]

Yup, the part where Shinji announces that he'll destroy the world to save Rei and then...destroys the world is indeed pretty clear.

No, Shinji does not say he'll destroy the world to save Rei. He say's he doesn't care what happens to himself or to the world as long as he saves Rei. Not caring is not the same as actively trying to destroy. I'd give you the exact quote, but I'm lending out my DVD's right now. He wasn't thinking all that clearly, but he was not actually wanting the world to end. It's just his priorety was saving Rei first, world somewhere lower at the moment. And at no point did anyone tell him he actually had world ending power at his disposal.

At the same time he is not soley responsible for it. Yes his actions caused it. But he was manipulated into doing so by those who, unlike him, are not ignorent. He's the patsy, the dupe, the fallguy. Seele and Gendo are the masterminds.

Like I've said before if Shinji was deliberatly malicious and destructive, he'd probably be less hated by the fans. Evil but competent gets respect. Just a screw up is treated worse, no matter how good the intentions.

Well this has all been said before. I'm sure it'll get said again.[/u]

[Kendrix]

And what exactky would Shinji be "atoning" for in 3.0 if he has no moral responsibility for 3rd Impact beyond being in the wrong place at the wrong time?

That he couldn't be reasonably blamed or judged by any fair court for it doesn't change that there's some causal relationship.
He was just a mere catalyst (as we hear over and over again) but yeah, if he wasn't there, it wouldn't have happened, so he will still have to learn how to live in a world where everyone blames him, and he will still feel guilt (which wouldn't be a problem in the first place if he really was a self-centered psychopath), and have to learn hove to live with that.
Which is the point of all the "atonement" dialogue, really, Shinji learning how to live with it, how to cope with the situation that yes, he screwed up.
Sometimes, even when you act out of the best of intentions, things are gonna blow up in your face. Previously, he had been afraid of acting on his own out of fear of screwing up, now he did act and try his hardest, and it did blow up in his face.
How does he cope with that?
Okay sensei, I watched the series and the first two movies, I got it, I mustn't run away, I must try to take active action rather than be passive, be honest about my motivations and aknowdledge what i want.
I must risk doing things wrong.
So how do I, the audience member, learn to cope with things not going my way?
When I actually make mistakes, what do I do?
That's the point of this movie.

When a three year old child steals their sisters candy, we don't put them in jail like we would an actual adult thief who knew that what they're doing is called stealing and knew exactly why stealing is wrong, but that doesn't change that we will expect the three year old in question to apologize and understand that they shouldn't steal anymore.

Some irresponsible jackass gives a young child who doesn't really know what they are a box of matches, they play with it, and burn down a house full of people. Is that child to blame for burning down the house? No.
But it's still the "catalyst", it's still gonna be traumatized/feel responsible, and it's still a good idea to tell children not to touch matches and to punish them if they do.

But what you're doing is insist how low that kid must be because they dared to touch the matches to lit a fire for their own pleasure even though their parents told them not to while the kid itself is bawling their eyes out because the fire killed its parents and many of its friends who lived in the same building.

in that case, the child is a victim of the unresponsible people who didn't put the matches in a place that little children can't reach, and it's a victim in the sense that it lost people it cared about.

Oh, and to spin the analogy further, imagine the kid fell into a coma because of smoke poisoning and woke up years later... Is it not a victim?



Even at the end of 3.0, what he did was fall into a trap that was tailored to screw with/ make use of his emotional state. In this case, NOT falling for it would have been the exceptional thing. Yeah, most heroes are exceptional, this is why we're used to them NOT falling for such traps, but Shinji's significantly less exceptional than most of them.

[Lucretius]

^ Okay, so you're admitting that Shinji did knowingly bring about 3rd Impact--or at least willed it into happening by not giving two fucks about anyone but himself--but this is forgivable because...reasons. If that isn't the thrust of your argument, I'm not sure what the above post was meant to convey.

And while in real life some not otherwise malicious people might sacrifice the lives of many to save a loved one--though ticking time bomb situations are very rare in reality, so it's not a very weighty question outside the context of bad superhero movies--most would also at least hesitate before pushing the shiny red genocide button.

[Kendrix]

^ Okay, so you're admitting that Shinji did knowingly bring about 3rd Impact.

NO. You're not getting the important differece here, which is that he did not know fuck. He was involved in bringing it about, obviously, but he did not know the consequences. No one's debating what the consequences were, but he did not know, and what happened was in no way the desired result of his actions, more like the exact opposite.
And that last part goes for BOTH near impact events.


*sigh* geez, you people.

Pictured here:
[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/541/nofucksgiven.jpg/][/URL]
Not giving a fuck, apparently.

[MitsumuraKun51196]

I totally agree. I took a laugh at the charlie brown statement
great point sir.

[Kendrix]

It's even better in the actual rip - that uncontrolably twitching eyebrow of abject despair is OBVIOUSLY the mark of a psychopath devoid of any remorse.

You'd have to be totally crazy to get to the interpretation that he's half mad with guilt and utterly horrified by the destruction. Silly me, to even consider that this may have been his exact same reaction if he'd seen what was going on back in 2.0...


It's not like there's any scene in 2.0 where he found it unbearable to sacrifice even a single life in self-defense, right?

[Darkwing]

^ Okay, so you're admitting that Shinji did knowingly bring about 3rd Impact--or at least willed it into happening by not giving two fucks about anyone but himself--but this is forgivable because...reasons. If that isn't the thrust of your argument, I'm not sure what the above post was meant to convey.

And while in real life some not otherwise malicious people might sacrifice the lives of many to save a loved one--though ticking time bomb situations are very rare in reality, so it's not a very weighty question outside the context of bad superhero movies--most would also at least hesitate before pushing the shiny red genocide button.

Uh, where the heck is Kendrix saying Shinji knowingly brought about 3rd Impact. The fact he didn't know he would cause it is pretty much the entire crux of the aurguement that he's not a monster. It's damn signifigant that he didn't know it. The most warning he gets is that he won't be human anymore if he keeps going, nothing about causing 3rd impact. He didn't know there was a shiny red genocide button, and once her knows what her caused he's horrified. Accidental is not the same as intentional.

And while ticking time bomb situations are rare in reality, Giant Doomsday Robots are even rarer.

[Na7e]

It's not like there's any scene in 2.0 where he found it unbearable to sacrifice even a single life in self-defense, right?

Well he was mostly concerned about his own innocence, and even then he admits that he was jealous his dad found a replacement in the dummy system. So yeah you know he was being a whiny douchebag.

[Lucretius]

Feeling remorse after killing thousands of people doesn't really bump Shinji far up in the sympathy department. Even TV anti heroes like Tony Soprano or Walter White generally aren't shown to be psychopaths in the "clinical" sense of feeling no guilt whatsoever.

If 3rd Impact involved no volition at all on Shinji's part, conscious or otherwise, then his failure is strictly mechanical and his arc in 3.0 amounts to "learning not to run with pointy objects." If Shinji has no need to fundamentally change, what is the point of this exercise?

[Hyper Shinchan]

Accidental is not the same as intentional.

During my permanence in this forum I ended up thinking that for some people they're just one and the same.