Shinji Character Analysis (2.0/3.0)

[CJD]

And reckless. In a war machine of death and annihilation. But yes this isn't just about 'The Trial of Shinji Ikari'. He's not supposed to be evil, or un-sympathizable. Those who have been saying 'this isn't black and white, but gray' have been correct I think. But nonetheless I find it interesting to point these things about this theme of selfish reckless downright arrogance out, especially in light of unreadably long essays that have been showing up in here lately saying more or less that 'everyone else is to blame for Shinji's actions; Shinji is the innocent and perfect and I just want to hold him.'

Fair enough. You'll have to excuse those people who write those essays, though, considering how they've watched the tide favor the enemy for so long. Have to push back before they take the castle and what not. These days, and the days after the movie comes out, will set the zeitgeist of this topic for years to come.

[Kendrix]

^In all of these circumstances, the potential victims would enter your personal sphere of influence/perception.


Do you think Shinji wouldn't stop a random person getting hurt if he thought he could?
Well, he got into EVA 01 at the beginning in 1.0 for this random injured stranger. He did take care not to injure those two random boys one of which had beaten him up earlier that day.

He's not someone who'd watch someone suffer just because he doesn't know them, and his line in . doesn't mean anything like that, either.

But "save the world" is (as he lampshaded in 1.0 before shooting Ramiel) is a big, abstract concept thing. It becomes real to you when you see the many individuals and try to imagine them in the mass, just like it became real to Shinji when he saw the ruined geofront at the end of 2.0, but you have to sit down and think for that.

Think of that dialogue in episode 25 (or was it 26).
"I'm in this mecha because saving the word is a selfless thing!"
"Baka, you just wanna be liked, stop hiding behind pretty lies to avoid facing that you're doing this because you want to and the responsibility that comes with it"

And that's not supposed to be disgusting, that's supposed to be realistically human. I can think of certain statements by his voice actress...

The point of these lines in 2.0 is that he now for once knows what he wants and has learned a bit more about who he is.
The previous events of the movie confronted both him and us with the fact that no, he's no big selfless shining knight.

The finale is his answer to that, it's him finally finding his reason and being more honest with who he is and what he wants.
The truth is, he is no shining hero with firm ideals.
But that doesn't mean he doesn't care about anything at all. He cares about his comerades, Rei being the one who was in danger at the time.


This is as far as the messages from the original go.

ACT, even if you might do it wrong, because doing nothing is worse, even if there's the risk of screwing up.

Q is merely the logical continuation: well, okay, so now we have a Shinji who's willing to act even if there's the risk of screwing up.
Well, there IS a risk of screwing up. BIG TIME.
In fact, he just DID screw up, and now he's doubting his ability to do anything good at all, so, continue from there, How does he deal with that?This is what Q is about.



It can't be helped that mistakes happen, they can't always be undone, but you can try to atone.
That's it.

It hurts because he was honestly acting on his own convinctions for the first time - Shinji must be asking himself "So even if I really give my everything, I can do no good?" and this time, he can't shift the blame on anyone else, because while he was still set up and manipulated, those were his actions. He left himself open for this guilt and hatred because he was honest with himself about his motivations, because he dared to be the true Shinji Ikari, without any (or at least with significantly less ) masks.

It is to be noted that he seems to have a complex about not wanting a repeat of what his inaction did in 2.0. He immediately offers his help with the Nemesis series, he says "But you don't need me to do anything"/"We came to DO something etc." Which is why he ultimately goes a bit too far in that respect/overcompensated to a less-than-reasonable-degree and pulls the spears.

2.0 was sheer lack of information. Pulling the spears was wrong, but that's him being a teenager, not a self-absorbed egomaniac. He just doesn't belong in any wars or battle mechas, much less apocalypse machines, but he is in one and trying to deal with it within his limitations.
Again, I compare it to charging Shamschel against Misato's orders. Of course it was immature, but not more than that.

[Lucretius]

I don't think refusing to get his hands dirty by killing Asuka constitutes actively "caring," Kendrix.

[Kendrix]

I don't think refusing to get his hands dirty by killibg Asuka constitutes actively "caring," Kendrix.

He wasn't going the right way about it, certainly not, but it shows his respect for human life, that's why he found himself in the situation of having to make a painful choice and avoiding that choice with adverse consequences, in the first place.

"But she's in there! But we gotta help her somehow-"


He erred, but the thing is, he didn't think, screw her, my own butt is most important to me, yay for self-preservation.

What happened in Q is equivalent to him actually fighting EVA 03 and, during the battle, making a wrong choice that actually gets Asuka killed despite his efforts to save her.
Something like, he think's Bardiel's done for and moved to retrieve Asuka, gets told halfway through that there's a huge energy buildup in the target and he spontanously thinks "I can still retreat once I've sucessfully removed this plug", and then, ZAP, surprise laser.

[Darkwing]

And reckless. In a war machine of death and annihilation. But yes this isn't just about 'The Trial of Shinji Ikari'. He's not supposed to be evil, or un-sympathizable. Those who have been saying 'this isn't black and white, but gray' have been correct I think. But nonetheless I find it interesting to point these things about this theme of selfish reckless downright arrogance out, especially in light of unreadably long essays that have been showing up in here lately saying more or less that 'everyone else is to blame for Shinji's actions; Shinji is the innocent and perfect and I just want to hold him.'

I too admonish the Hitler and Stalin nonsense, there's massive degrees of clear intent and foreknowledge there that make raising them nothing but a distraction.

Edit: and I definitely wasn't calling for him to be thought of as Light Yagami in my earlier post. Again it was a reaction to seeing a great deal of what seemed to be 'well he's the main character, so... I as the audience am supposed to sympathize and identify with him most!'

Well people get caught up in debates sometimes. They like to aurgue points back and forth. Thus the long essays. Hell half the reason I'm here now because I'm enjoying the talk. Got nothing better for entertainment till Christmas. Granted sometimes I do get a little too emotional, but it's been intelecutally fascinating, not just for what Shinji did, but also the fans reactions. Honestly I doubt that I'll convince or persude anyone at this point over to my point of view. And thats what a lot of it is. Different viewpoints, different interpretations. But the debate has taken on a life of it's own.

Ok, gonna use another way to descripe my views on what Shinji's actions at the end of 2.0. Lets say someone see's their sister being drowned by an attacker. They have a gun. They know that the gun can shoot bullets that can kill people. The use the gun to shoot the attacker. What they do not know is that this particular gun also sets off all the worlds nukes when the trigger is squeezed extra hard. Now it's possible to stop this, but at the time they don't know it's happening. Instead they run over to their sister so as to give CPR. Things happen at the time they don't know about. But that doesn't make the choices that you made inherintly evil or selfish. Shinji clearly regrets what he did when he learns what it resualted in. If he could actually go back and do things differently he would. But he can (not) Redo. But with another movie coming, even if everyone wants to stay the hell away, even if he's fucked up before, he's gonna have to grit his teeth, and try to get it right.

[Kendrix]

Ok, gonna use another way to descripe my views on what Shinji's actions at the end of 2.0. Lets say someone see's their sister being drowned by an attacker. They have a gun. They know that the gun can shoot bullets that can kill people. The use the gun to shoot the attacker. What they do not know is that this particular gun also sets off all the worlds nukes when the trigger is squeezed extra hard. Now it's possible to stop this, but at the time they don't know it's happening. Instead they run over to their sister so as to give CPR. Things happen at the time they don't know about. But that doesn't make the choices that you made inherintly evil or selfish. Shinji clearly regrets what he did when he learns what it resualted in. If he could actually go back and do things differently he would. But he can (not) Redo. But with another movie coming, even if everyone wants to stay the hell away, even if he's fucked up before, he's gonna have to grit his teeth, and try to get it right.

^This.

He thought the choice was "save you comerade", yes or no, and who the fuck would say no?

(we see him agonize over this in the movie. "But... I chose to go and save Rei. That's the right thing to do, wasn't it?" Was he supposed to leave her when she's right before his eyes.
I mean, mayor What-the-fuck-have-I-done moments there. he didn't want this. It#s him who worries about what happended to his friends and repeatedly asks "What's going on? What is everyone plotting?" He asked Kaworu to show him the truth (...and he does. "This is the truth you wanted" ) and he asked Rei before that.
That's not "Not giving a fuck about anything."

Some twist her lines into her kicking and screaming for him to leave her the fuck alone, but what she's saying is "It's enough, don't get hurt because of me, I'm not worth it." And he just replies "yes you are." )

Sure this movie wants to tell us "the reset button is wrong", but not in the way of "Look at this idiot who didn't know it and be apalled at how repugnant he is" but "Watch as this kid, who is sorta like you, is gonna have to learn that now as a part of his personal journey to becomming an adult, and so will you"

It ends with both Kaworu and Mari leaving him final words of guidance. "There's an aswer, you just haven't found it yet", they have Kaworu try to console him... (which gave me a new layer of respect for Kaworu, really, so concerned about Shinji when HE is the one who's about to lose his head. Reminds me of some story my mother once told me, about how she got a whole new layer of respect for her old man when he apologized to the nurse who had to treat his rather disgusting-looking cancer-related lesions as he lay dying. That sort of thing. )

[Darkwing]

^This.

He thought the choice was "save you comerade", yes or no, and who the fuck would say no?

(we see him agonize over this in the movie. "But... I chose to go and save Rei. That's the right thing to do, wasn't it?" Was he supposed to leave her when she's right before his eyes.
I mean, mayor What-the-fuck-have-I-done moments there. he didn't want this. It#s him who worries about what happended to his friends and repeatedly asks "What's going on? What is everyone plotting?" He asked Kaworu to show him the truth (...and he does. "This is the truth you wanted" ) and he asked Rei before that.
That's not "Not giving a fuck about anything."

Some twist her lines into her kicking and screaming for him to leave her the fuck alone, but what she's saying is "It's enough, don't get hurt because of me, I'm not worth it." And he just replies "yes you are." )

Yeah. Any other series Shinji would have been making the right call there. But Eva is a brutal deconstrucion. To the point it starts to feel meanspirted at times.

[NemZ]

'well he's the main character, so... I as the audience am supposed to sympathize and identify with him most!'

Straw man. I don't recall anyone saying that's their reason for anything.

As for people who don't care about everyone, I can only surmise as to sociopathic tendencies and narrow backwards political views that tend to coincide with such sentiments.

And that would be Ad Hominum, your old favorite. Any more fallacies you'd like to use today?

"Everyone" isn't a vague abstraction because it includes all the people Shinji knows personally and ostensibly cares about to some degree.

Yes, actually, it is. That's still referring to specific people, something manageable. When you try an expand it to everyone though the human mind simply isn't capable of truely giving a shit. Oh, you might tell yourself you do and make a big show of sympathy, but that's just because you want to to percieved as a person who cares, not because you actually do. Past about 150 or so of the people closest to you empathy just doesn't work, and there is anthropological research to back that up.

Really? If you watched a woman being raped, would you just ignore it and go about your business? If someone came to your door dying, would you do nothing? If you were handed a device and told that if you were you use it there was a 50% chance you would gain riches beyond your wildest dreams and a 50% chance that you would kill 1.5 billion random people, would you use it?

If a person enters into my sphere of effective action then they cease to be part of 'everyone' and become 'that person right there in front of me'. That's a HUGE difference. Of course I'd make some reasonable efforts to help like calling 911 and such, or perhaps administering some help personally if I had the slightest idea how to do so or in the case of the rapist if I felt I could do so without undue risk to myself.

As to the device, I'd really need some more information. As stated I'd assume it was a joke, because that's just stupid. Who exactly is it going to kill, how, and how likely are they to die soon anyway? What will their deaths actually affect on a global scale? How much money are we actually talking about, and do I have to spend it only on myself or can I use this potentially infinite wealth to build a global paradise for the survivors? Destructive events like forest fires are a necessary part of a healthy ecosystem, afterall.

[Kendrix]

We're not just monkeys, I say that it IS possible to care for the big picture, but that's a noble, exceptional thing and it requires abstract thought that few people can do with a panicked, agitated mind.(There actually isn't anyone in EVA who is 100% selfless or big-picture-oriented. Even Gendo who really is a prime big-picture-final-result-oriented-thinker wants his wife back, sure, Kaworu wants to save humanity and is ready to give his life simply because he likes humanity, but he likes his favorite human most of them all... Rei is either not conciously putting her wishes aside because she doesn't realize her own needs or acting out of loyalty for her father figure and/or closest friend/possible boyfriend and Mari knows lots of stuff and is out to stop the bad guys, but she also really enjoys her job. Everyone else has mostly personal motivations. Or well, i'd say Sakura is a possible candidate for EVA's mother theresa, being a nurse and forgiving the alleged war criminal who offed her brother. But she's just one little girl, people like her are rare, not the norm. )

It's not the normal thing. It's noble because it isn't the normal thing. Those limitations NemZ mentioned do exist, circumventing them is possible because we can become aware of them, but it's hard because our hardware is limited. It takes constant reflection and concious effort, and even then, you'll have moments of human weakness.

Most people try to avoid causing harm as far as their knowledge goes, and have a select group of people they're able to get really emotional about, maybe even one or two that they'd die for. Maybe your partners, often your children.

Shinji is... I don't wanna say he has no noble traits, but he's certainly closer to the "normal" person than, say, Naruto Uzumaki.

The same is true for Misato, and I don't think we're supposed to hate her.
Anno is putting her on the flagship of "teh message" with Q, regardless of her cruel treatment of one single person in what were mostly tragic circumstances/human flaws at work at both sides.

Admitting that is being honest, not being a selfish prick. Or not any more selfish than an average human being who isn't an adult yet.

[Ornette]

Can we have a bit less antagonism in an otherwise productive thread?

[Na7e]

Was he supposed to leave her when she's right before his eyes.

Yes, considering it caused third impact.

which gave me a new layer of respect for Kaworu, really, so concerned about Shinji when HE is the one who's about to lose his head.

It's not respectful, it's down right fucking disturbing. Kaworu's self-worth is so minimal that he's more worried about Shinj who just completely fucked him over for his own emotional neediness. And, once again taking blame for Shinji's fuck-up in pulling the spears. Sure, space Jesus and all that. But, seriously? Shinji could probably beat Kaworu on a daily basis, and Kaworu would probably think it was his fault somehow.

[Hyper Shinchan]

Yes, considering it caused third impact.

Isn't it a bit too convenient to judge his actions from the consequences? Did he have any clue about the possibility of starting 3rd Impact in that way? After all they only told him that an Angel contacting Lilith would have started 3rd Impact, I'm sure that they omitted this other possibility in the Evangelion 01's user manual.

Sure, space Jesus and all that. But, seriously?

Yep, seriously.

[ReiAyanami25]

It's not respectful, it's down right fucking disturbing. Kaworu's self-worth is so minimal that he's more worried about Shinj who just completely fucked him over for his own emotional neediness. And, once again taking blame for Shinji's fuck-up in pulling the spears. Sure, space Jesus and all that. But, seriously? Shinji could probably beat Kaworu on a daily basis, and Kaworu would probably think it was his fault somehow.

It would take vast amounts of willpower, devotion and possibly even a small amount of insanity to be so accepting and dedicated towards a single person. Answer me this, someone, why would Kaworu do such things? As far as I understand, the two of them were not acquainted with each other for very long, so why would Kaworu be prepared to sacrifice his own life over Shinji's, while all the while acting as a constant source of sympathy and reassurance for Shinji, who as we know was very troubled with the drastic changes in his surroundings. Was it because Kaworu simply had the patience and good-will to feel obliged to do so? Is it because he recognized the fact that Shinji needed guidance and sympathy?

[Na7e]

Did he have any clue about the possibility of starting 3rd Impact in that way?

No, he didn't. That being said Shinji already knows Unit-01 can do freaky shit considering it destroyed the angel while he was lying unconscious. The angel didn't defeat itself like we all saw during it's berserk incident.

That being said....2.0's ending was a willful abuse of power. I have no issues using the power he was given to wipe Zeruel off the face of the earth. That being said that wasn't his intention. He wanted to get Ayanami back. He used Unit-01 for his own personal gain, and whether the consequences were intentional or not he is responsible for him.

[pwhodges]

I have no issues using the power he was given to wipe Zeruel off the face of the earth. That being said that wasn't his intention.

Not his intention? He needed to defeat the angel; Rei's situation just provided that extra impetus which gave him the edge.

But then, having defeated the angel, it would have been nothing less than perverse not to do what he could to salvage his comrade if conceivably possible. Is this any more foolhardy, or any less admirable, than WW-I soldiers crawling out between the trenches (sometimes in defiance of orders) to to recover their fallen comrades?

That went wrong; but in 3.0 he is trying to finish what he started, with the same foolhardiness. If it had worked, he would have been praised; but the same decisions and actions, because they failed, are now further reviled.

[Na7e]

Not his intention? He needed to defeat the angel; Rei's situation just provided that extra impetus which gave him the edge.

His intention was exactly as I stated. He wanted to get Ayanami back, not do his damn job. His job as an Eva pilot is to destroy angels, and protect humanity from extinction. He failed catastrophically at the second even so far as saying he doesn't give a shit about himself or the world.

That went wrong; but in 3.0 he is trying to finish what he started, with the same foolhardiness. If it had worked, he would have been praised; but the same decisions and actions, because they failed, are now further reviled.

I wouldn't have praised him at all in 3.0 even if he was successful considering he was ignoring everyone's word of advice, throwing Kaworu in mortal peril, and his real reasons weren't about saving the world, but getting everyone to like him again.

[ReiAyanami25]

His intention was exactly as I stated. He wanted to get Ayanami back. His job as an Eva pilot is to destroy angels, and protect humanity from extinction. He failed catastrophically at the second even so far as saying he doesn't give a shit about himself or the world.

I personally think that Shinji's attempt at saving Rei was a perfectly justifiable and admirable one, which I greatly encourage. However, what I do not encourage, was the fact that Shinji completely disregarded the consequences that would come about by doing so. But, then again, did he even know what would happen if he did attempt to rescue Rei? Did he realize that he was taking it a step too far?

[Hyper Shinchan]

His intention was exactly as I stated. He wanted to get Ayanami back, not do his damn job.

He started doing this job to protect a single girl from death, the very same Ayanami, not to "save the world and humanity" (he never managed to fully accept it), bad events beyond his knowledge happened when he tried to save Rei but he always had this order of priority, yet everyone around him was fine with it and they used him (including Misato and not only the scheming couple Gendo/Fuyutsuki).

[Reichu]

But then, having defeated the angel, it would have been nothing less than perverse not to do what he could to salvage his comrade if conceivably possible. Is this any more foolhardy, or any less admirable, than WW-I soldiers crawling out between the trenches (sometimes in defiance of orders) to to recover their fallen comrades?

It's a somewhat crooked analogy... Shinji saw Eva-00 get eaten. EATEN. Based on what Shinji KNEW, about the laws that typically govern the way the world works, he should have accepted that Rei was dead, as people who get eaten whole typically are. The only way Shinji can "save" this particular comrade is by -- god knows how -- pulling reality-breaking superpowers out of his bioweapon mama's asshole, because he's having a temper tantrum over a death that's basically (in his own head, and partially IRL) his fault.

[pwhodges]

Shinji completely disregarded the consequences that would come about by doing so.

He. Did. Not. Know.

Even the people who shouted at him to stop (e.g. Ritsuko) did so because his synch ratio was raising the danger that he would get stuck in the Eva, not because they could see 3I coming - their concern was Shinji himself. The only person who could see the consequence (Gendou) was notably not trying to stop him.