[SPLIT] NME Kaworu and Shinji speculation

[Kozar927]

I really dislike the implication that Shinji is sexually attracted to kaworu. Not only does it not fit in with the story but if it where true it would kill all the things about their relationship that make it have a point. If they were gay together I feel their relationship would loose a huge impact on the story as a whole and ruin the point its trying to make

[Xard]

lol.

Last Eva thread I browsed on /a/ (the day trailer came out) had a couple of butthurt guys shitting on Evageeks and the userbase for being full of rabid Asukafags (being Rei fan is misery here) and our categorical denial of any gayness between Shinji and Kaworu.

At times I just chuckled at it, remembering the reality is more nuanced, but the posting going on in this topic right now most certainly would be evidential if one were to make case EGF has "Kaworu complex".


I'm not taking stance either way here but the whole NOOO THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE tone et al. is highly amusing and esp. in light of Anno's original pre-censored scripts for ep 24 highly unplausible.

[cd603]

I really dislike the implication that Shinji is sexually attracted to kaworu. Not only does it not fit in with the story but if it where true it would kill all the things about their relationship that make it have a point. If they were gay together I feel their relationship would loose a huge impact on the story as a whole and ruin the point its trying to make

Not if Anno is trying to make a point.
Plus how would them being together affect the story? It called character development for a reason.
I'm not mad or anything, I just don't see the logic in your statement.

[jimmiel]

If they were gay together I feel their relationship would loose a huge impact

... Third Impact?
Ooh - an impact into the Third?
Seriously though, as has been said, there's no real reason to think it'll go that way. All the material in this trailer could have been taken from Episode 24.

[Kozar927]

Not if Anno is trying to make a point.
Plus how would them being together affect the story? It called character development for a reason.
I'm not mad or anything, I just don't see the logic in your statement.

I feel that making their relationship about sexual attraction would mean their is a physical reason for them to have been drawn together they way they were which I believe detracts from the real purpose of their emotional bond.

[Bagheera]

I really dislike the implication that Shinji is sexually attracted to kaworu. Not only does it not fit in with the story but if it where true it would kill all the things about their relationship that make it have a point. If they were gay together I feel their relationship would loose a huge impact on the story as a whole and ruin the point its trying to make

I tend to think that, at least in NGE, part of the reason Anno made Kaworu a guy to begin with was to highlight exactly this. Between ogling Rei and fantasizing about Misato and his back and forth with Asuka and his "I'm a boy!" bit with Kaji he'd established that Shinji was pretty vanilla, so when it comes time to shower the kid with unconditional love he makes the bearer a guy so as to not confuse the issue -- He wants the audience to say "Shinji doesn't swing that way, and Kaworu's an Angel, so what are we actually seeing here?" If he'd made Kaworu a girl it would be more of the same, but coming from a guy it's a curveball that makes the audience think.

But of course it came across differently to the Yaoi and Bara crowds, and likewise to the homophobes in the audience, and they latched onto that little interplay instead of looking at what was being said in the show. Now, as with everything else, Anno just throws up his hands and says "fine, if you're gonna fixate on that point beyond all reason I'll just use it to troll the fuck out of you. Ha ha ha, aren't I clever?" And people go "ooh, ooh, they're gonna fuck!" and get all excited and shit and, well . . . here we are.

Now of course Q will come out and we'll find that Shinji's dealing with his daddy issues, and the loss of Rei, and the reappearance of Asuka, and Misato's teasing, and whatever the fuck Mari's up to, and he'll be all depressed and shit. And then Kaworu shows up and gives him acceptance and uses it to rape his soul and threaten all humanity right before Final, after which he'll be dispatched and Shinji will (hopefully) learn to like himself for real rather than just being an angsty little shithead and he'll start building a life for himself with whichever girl is still giving him the time of day by that point.

Point is Kaworu's a plot device, not a love interest. Shinji's sexuality doesn't even enter into it because the Angel working for Seele is a non-starter either way. The shippers are just setting themselves up for disappointment, same as with Rei and Asuka (and now Mari I guess, who knows?).

[Hyper Shinchan]

Not in the shipping sense, though.

Mostly in the shipping sense.

but the posting going on in this topic right now most certainly would be evidential if one were to make case EGF has "Kaworu complex".

It would be even fine if it had just a Kaworu complex...

I feel that making their relationship about sexual attraction would mean their is a physical reason for them to have been drawn together they way they were which I believe detracts from the real purpose of their emotional bond.

Detracts from what? We don't know anything about their relation in this continuity.

[Monk Ed]

At times I just chuckled at it, remembering the reality is more nuanced, but the posting going on in this topic right now most certainly would be evidential if one were to make case EGF has "Kaworu complex".

"Reality is more nuanced" is right. EvaGeeks is probably the most heterogeneous place I've been. I find it hard to pin any kind of consensus down on just about anything here. I'm sure one can find majorities here and there but the minority is always sizeable enough and vocal enough and integrated enough to make it improper to really characterize EGF as a whole as having any particular one view about just about anything.

[Kozar927]

I tend to think that, at least in NGE, part of the reason Anno made Kaworu a guy to begin with was to highlight exactly this. Between ogling Rei and fantasizing about Misato and his back and forth with Asuka and his "I'm a boy!" bit with Kaji he'd established that Shinji was pretty vanilla, so when it comes time to shower the kid with unconditional love he makes the bearer a guy so as to not confuse the issue -- He wants the audience to say "Shinji doesn't swing that way, and Kaworu's an Angel, so what are we actually seeing here?" If he'd made Kaworu a girl it would be more of the same, but coming from a guy it's a curveball that makes the audience think.

But of course it came across differently to the Yaoi and Bara crowds, and likewise to the homophobes in the audience, and they latched onto that little interplay instead of looking at what was being said in the show. Now, as with everything else, Anno just throws up his hands and says "fine, if you're gonna fixate on that point beyond all reason I'll just use it to troll the fuck out of you. Ha ha ha, aren't I clever?" And people go "ooh, ooh, they're gonna fuck!" and get all excited and shit and, well . . . here we are.

Now of course Q will come out and we'll find that Shinji's dealing with his daddy issues, and the loss of Rei, and the reappearance of Asuka, and Misato's teasing, and whatever the fuck Mari's up to, and he'll be all depressed and shit. And then Kaworu shows up and gives him acceptance and uses it to rape his soul and threaten all humanity right before Final, after which he'll be dispatched and Shinji will (hopefully) learn to like himself for real rather than just being an angsty little shithead and he'll start building a life for himself with whichever girl is still giving him the time of day by that point.

Point is Kaworu's a plot device, not a love interest. Shinji's sexuality doesn't even enter into it because the Angel working for Seele is a non-starter either way. The shippers are just setting themselves up for disappointment, same as with Rei and Asuka (and now Mari I guess, who knows?).

Thank you. you made the point a million times better then I could of. I wanted to make my point but I was also very tired and lazy and didn't want to type out all I felt on the subject, but you summed it up perfectly. I believe if their was a romantic interest the relationship wouldn't be able to mean as much or wouldn't have the same meaning I should say as it was supposed too.

[robersora]

If they were gay together I feel their relationship would loose a huge impact on the story as a whole and ruin the point its trying to make

I'm not sure if I'm understanding this sentence correctly... Did you mean "lose", perhaps?

If so, well... It could lose one impact and gain another.
I hope they don't handle the whole Kaworu-Shinji relationship the same way they did in the original series... We have seen that already, show us something genuinely new with the cast we love! That's what Rebuild is about.

[Bagheera]

I'm not sure if I'm understanding this sentence correctly... Did you mean "lose", perhaps?

If so, well... It could lose one impact and gain another.
I hope they don't handle the whole Kaworu-Shinji relationship the same way they did in the original series... We have seen that already, show us something genuinely new with the cast we love! That's what Rebuild is about.

It's not about romance, though. It's about the hedgehog's dilemma and deciding to live on despite it. If he pairs up with anyone in Q it would derail the story from that basic point.

The real question here is "how far will Anno go before bringing the hammer down?" Because you can be he will -- it's just a matter of when and how much it will hurt when he does.

[Kozar927]

I also disagree with the people who say Shinji and kaworu had a romantic relationship in the original series. I don't know what their relationship in rebuild will be like, but ya to each his own. To me the original series would not have the same impact for me if I viewed it that kaworu was yet another romance interest for Shinji. Thats way to simple (face value) of an answer and it would eliminate the deeper point their. Sexuality was just not involved

[Monk Ed]

Though I enjoy KxS in my own imagination, when it comes to the actual series I don't think Shinji's interest in Kaworu was sexual or romantic. But even that still leaves open the hope -- however delusional -- that if things hadn't turned out so dismal, Shinji might eventually make an exception just for him. I mean, c'mon... a lot of us would.

[Sailor Star Dust]

Shinji and Kaworu's relationship in NGE can be discussed here: http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/11910/Shinjis-friendship-with-Kaworu/0/? among tons of other threads out there.

My own two cents on the subject, I don't see their relationship in NGE as being romantic, instead I see it as Shinji desperately clinging to the first person to show him kindness after all the shit he went through. How the circumstances in NME will be different or similar from NGE should be interesting. Assuming NME-Shinji does hook up with anybody, it probably won't be until sometime in FINAL the earliest (if even). But the point behind Shinji is he has to learn to love himself first before he can learn to love other people (as well as become his own person; break away from the dependency on his parents/other people). NGE Shinji learned those lessons at the very end but didn't put it into action, while NME Shinji has yet to learn them.

[robersora]

It's not about romance, though. It's about the hedgehog's dilemma and deciding to live on despite it. If he pairs up with anyone in Q it would derail the story from that basic point.

The real question here is "how far will Anno go before bringing the hammer down?" Because you can be he will -- it's just a matter of when and how much it will hurt when he does.

I didn't mean to say that they MUST hook up, I only wanted to say that I hope their relationship is handled differently than it was before, if only slightly.
Ok, so you think that Anno WILL give us KaworuXShinji-time in the actual movie as implied in the trailer to fulfill his "NME IS ENTERTAINMENT-statement"?
Or do you think he is just trolling us in the trailer? Something like "WATCH IT, IT'S GONNA BE KAWORIOUS!" But it actually isn't?
(Yet everything implies that it will: The statement of the piano-trailer "hope remains sounds very Kaworuish, also: "Shinji awakens, besides him a mysterious boy, a new world awaits him".)


Maybe it's all gonna be about Mari VERSUS Asuka. Who knows.

[AuraTwilight]

The best part is that all extracanonical material and alternate universes makes Kaworu/Shinji a valid pairing, so it's not even the fandom's fault.

[Monk Ed]

The best part is that all extracanonical material and alternate universes makes Kaworu/Shinji a valid pairing, so it's not even the fandom's fault.

...Wait, really? I'm not very experienced with those materials so I always assumed that the pairing was just fan-- Oh! There was some very Kaworu/Shinji stuff going on in one of those Kaworu Happy Ends in NGE2, right? And then of course there's also that very BL early draft of ep 24.

[Hyper Shinchan]

^
Kaworu's own scenario doesn't necessarily involve any relation with Shinji, he just takes off and leaves this stupid earth, there's more KxS in Shinji's second scenario where you can save Kaworu; there's also another Shinji's scenario set only in episode 24 in the PS2 version but I never played it.
Actually other "standard" (standard includes RxS which causes "squik reactions" all over the place here on EGF) pairings received much better treatments in extra canonical games, I can still feel the frustration for the lack of a Kaworu ending in GoS2nd.

[Bagheera]

^
Kaworu's own scenario doesn't necessarily involve any relation with Shinji, he just takes off and leaves this stupid earth, there's more KxS in Shinji's second scenario where you can save Kaworu; there's also another Shinji's scenario set only in episode 24 in the PS2 version but I never played it.
Actually other "standard" (standard includes RxS which causes "squik reactions" all over the place here on EGF) pairings received much better treatments in extra canonical games, I can still feel the frustration for the lack of a Kaworu ending in GoS2nd.

Well, it is Girlfriend of Steel, and by that they don't mean Shinji.

(and I'd imagine the RxS endings would be a lot less squickier in the AU versions, since her origin is typically different in those.)

[Alaska Slim]

Shinji might eventually make an exception just for him. I mean, c'mon... a lot of us would.

Oh heck no, would never go Gay for Kawrou. The dude has red eyes, it would freak me right the f*ck out each time we made eye contact. And a white complexion with white/gray hair? The dude would look like he was eternally bathed in dry wall.

Oh! There was some very Kaworu/Shinji stuff going on in one of those Kaworu Happy Ends in NGE2, right?

But isn't that the same game with the mechanic where he could only go with Kawrou if his "sexuality" bar was at zero? .... Or was that Girlfriend of Steel II? Wait a minute, with three possible love interests, how would that even work...