FGC translation for Rebuilds?
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FGC translation for Rebuilds?
Is there going to be a Fan Geek Commentary translation for the Rebuild of Evangelion movies? If not, then can someone point me to the most accurate fan translated scripts for all four films?
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Re: FGC translation for Rebuilds?
If someone steps up to the plate, then we would use that; but at the moment, apart from Reichu's work on her site translating the subtitles from Shin, there hasn't been any such effort. We don't even have an EoE script for completing the OG series commentary.
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- BoogerPoo2002
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Re: FGC translation for Rebuilds?
Wait, translating subtitles, you say? Has she translated the scripts to the Rebuild movies, with her currently working on 3.0 + 1.0?
Re: FGC translation for Rebuilds?
It wasn't exactly the script, it was the Japanese subtitles, which was an option for the movie in theatres. Reichu has translated a good amount of these subtitles in his/her blog (I don't know if everything is translated).
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Re: FGC translation for Rebuilds?
- Blockio
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Re: FGC translation for Rebuilds?
She only did Shin as a stopgap until an official translation was out; this was never intended as a permanent replacement for anything
I can see why Gendo hired Misato to do the actual commanding. He tried it once and did an appalling job. ~ AWinters
Your point of view is horny, and biased. ~ glitz2hard
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu
Your point of view is horny, and biased. ~ glitz2hard
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu
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Re: FGC translation for Rebuilds?
On Amazon prime, the subtitle track.
I can see why Gendo hired Misato to do the actual commanding. He tried it once and did an appalling job. ~ AWinters
Your point of view is horny, and biased. ~ glitz2hard
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu
Your point of view is horny, and biased. ~ glitz2hard
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu
- BoogerPoo2002
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Re: FGC translation for Rebuilds?
The sub in English are really the dub dialogue. So, there are certain limitations (for example: they try to keep the words in sync with the movement of the mouth).
That said, there are some big mistakes in the Prime dub/sub, but the translation is mostly good.
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Re: FGC translation for Rebuilds?
That's nitpicking. The way that sentence is used in that context is to express disappointment and frustration; I have yet to meet anyone who would actually say "It's no good" when getting no phone signal, but "damn", "fuck" or the like is a much more common thing to say. Translating a work of fiction is much more than just getting the words right, it also has to carry the same connotations and mood, and, most crucially, sound like something a normal human would say. Japanese operates on a different set of base parameters than most "western" languages and situations where one would swear in different languages are often expressed through other, less immediately visible elements, which is why direct, literal translations sound stilted and sucky at the best of times; knowing when to take the liberty of using a different phrase that in context expresses the same emotion rather than translating the words is what differentiates a professional, experienced localization expert from an amateur with a dictionary.
I can see why Gendo hired Misato to do the actual commanding. He tried it once and did an appalling job. ~ AWinters
Your point of view is horny, and biased. ~ glitz2hard
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu
Your point of view is horny, and biased. ~ glitz2hard
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu
Re: FGC translation for Rebuilds?
Blockio wrote:That's nitpicking. The way that sentence is used in that context is to express disappointment and frustration; I have yet to meet anyone who would actually say "It's no good" when getting no phone signal, but "damn", "fuck" or the like is a much more common thing to say. Translating a work of fiction is much more than just getting the words right, it also has to carry the same connotations and mood, and, most crucially, sound like something a normal human would say. Japanese operates on a different set of base parameters than most "western" languages and situations where one would swear in different languages are often expressed through other, less immediately visible elements, which is why direct, literal translations sound stilted and sucky at the best of times; knowing when to take the liberty of using a different phrase that in context expresses the same emotion rather than translating the words is what differentiates a professional, experienced localization expert from an amateur with a dictionary.
It's true that there are several things that need to be changed to make them sound better in another language. Although the Prime Dub have some unnecessary mistakes.
That said, many fans want to know the exact words the characters are saying. That's why many people don't appreciate the Dub and their liberties. They would likely prefer the amateur with the dictionary if the translation is more exact
The people reading Subs probably prefer the most accurate translation possible. After all, they would probably heard the Dub if they didn't mind the changes.
Re: FGC translation for Rebuilds?
But there are two Prime English subtitle tracks. One of these is the accurate (subject to Blockio's qualifications about "It's no good") translation of the Japanese script and the other are "dubtitles" that merely transcribe the English dub, right?
Re: FGC translation for Rebuilds?
Yeah. The English Subs [CC] seem more accurate than the regular English subs. I remember dialogue that were right in the English Sub [CC], but wrong in the regular English Sub.
However, we should consider that English Sub [CC] was created to people who can't heard the audio. It wasn't exactly trying to be more faithful adaptation than the regular English Sub, but it could correct some mistakes.
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Re: FGC translation for Rebuilds?
Konja7 wrote:That said, many fans want to know the exact words the characters are saying. That's why many people don't appreciate the Dub and their liberties. They would likely prefer the amateur with the dictionary if the translation is more exact
The people reading Subs probably prefer the most accurate translation possible. After all, they would probably heard the Dub if they didn't mind the changes.
That's a false equivalence I feel. Taking liberties in translation is changing the meaning of a line to something else, not adapting a phrase to be more commonly understood by the target audience.
To give another example; one of the shows I watch has the characters often hang out at a okonomiyaki place; a type of Japanese food that is approximately a type of pancake, so the subtitles translated it as that; because while yes, technically not quite the same thing, it's a close enough match of concepts, pancake is a vastly better understood term, and the only people who care about it being put differently are those already familiar with the difference.
The same applies here. Making a translation as literal as possible to please those who are evidently already familiar with the difference is not worth making it more confusing for everyone who doesn't; that isn't being accurate to the source, that is artificially raising the barrier of entry. The notion that anyone who doesn't want that should just watch the dub instead is nonsensical and needless gatekeeping.
I can see why Gendo hired Misato to do the actual commanding. He tried it once and did an appalling job. ~ AWinters
Your point of view is horny, and biased. ~ glitz2hard
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu
Your point of view is horny, and biased. ~ glitz2hard
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu
Re: FGC translation for Rebuilds?
I guess I was defensive about this, because there are cases were localizers really create unnecessary changes in dialogue.
As I said, I've understand there are changes really necessary to understand better the situation. Your example about the pancakes is pretty good.
PS: I wasn't trying to be gatekeeping, but I think my mentality was too close about the reasons why people read Subs.
Re: FGC translation for Rebuilds?
Blockio wrote:Taking liberties in translation is changing the meaning of a line to something else, not adapting a phrase to be more commonly understood by the target audience.
To give another example; one of the shows I watch has the characters often hang out at a okonomiyaki place; a type of Japanese food that is approximately a type of pancake, so the subtitles translated it as that; because while yes, technically not quite the same thing, it's a close enough match of concepts, pancake is a vastly better understood term, and the only people who care about it being put differently are those already familiar with the difference.
The same applies here. Making a translation as literal as possible to please those who are evidently already familiar with the difference is not worth making it more confusing for everyone who doesn't; that isn't being accurate to the source, that is artificially raising the barrier of entry.
I'm not trying to be argumentative on this point for its own sake, just want to throw in the two cents of someone who thinks subtitles should be literal in principle.
I feel like this liberty specifically illustrates what bothers me about non-literal subtitles. Isn't this just the needless prevention of a learning opportunity? I guess "barrier to entry" is that but in different words, but for instance: if someone were interested in knowing what that food was, how can they be reasonably expected to find out easily? Searching "Japanese pancakes" brings up, well, exactly that, how to make their characteristically fluffier/taller breakfast pancakes. How is someone reasonably expected to get from "pancake" that it's savory, half of it is cabbage, and it's dressed up in highly seasoned seafood flavor?
Translations of this sort strike me as condescending in a way. Everyone has google nowadays; the mere possibility of confusion shouldn't be a justification to remove all foreign information.
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Re: FGC translation for Rebuilds?
Well, you can still hear the words being said (bar folks with auditory disabilities, but that's a whole different can of worms), and for single term localizations like that, google will bring up the right result even on things that are only vaguely phonetically correct; for all larger things, well, google is going to bring up debates like this one where people lay out in depth what is what. The learning opportunity is a valid argument, but it at the same time is a bit fallacious in nature, in that it only benefits a comparatively very small subset of people, while being arguably a bigger inconvenience to most others than simply picking an understood term. There is definitely a gradient here as far as terminology goes, for another example, the suffix 改 ("Kai", meaning custom/improved/modified in this context) often times goes untranslated on military hardware, real or fictional, because it is a commonly understood phrase in the respective circles.
However, to reel this back to the original topic: The same does not apply to figures of speech and general phrasing. Exceptions can be argued for individual terms, technical descriptors and names, but conversation above all else needs to be understandable. Language is by its nature ambiguous, and even a "literal" translation will never faithfully reflect all of the connotations the original phrase had, if a 1:1 equivalent of the words even exists, which is often times not the case at all.
For an example from German: Geborgenheit. It describes a feeling of comfort and safety, being protected by another, usually larger and implied or explicitly benevolent entity from a harsh and/or hostile outside. There is no word in the English language that comes even close to carying the full meaning of the word, and even that before sentence does not cover the multitude of more subtle implications it has. It would be translated as "comfort" in almost every context, but it is largely inadequate for getting across the full dimension of meanings at play; depending on the context, it might even better be translated as "protectedness", even if that is objectively not what the meaning of the word in a vacuum is. And that's on two languages that are linguistically very closely related; this problem is amplified by orders of magnitude when translating from something as different as Japanese.
However, to reel this back to the original topic: The same does not apply to figures of speech and general phrasing. Exceptions can be argued for individual terms, technical descriptors and names, but conversation above all else needs to be understandable. Language is by its nature ambiguous, and even a "literal" translation will never faithfully reflect all of the connotations the original phrase had, if a 1:1 equivalent of the words even exists, which is often times not the case at all.
For an example from German: Geborgenheit. It describes a feeling of comfort and safety, being protected by another, usually larger and implied or explicitly benevolent entity from a harsh and/or hostile outside. There is no word in the English language that comes even close to carying the full meaning of the word, and even that before sentence does not cover the multitude of more subtle implications it has. It would be translated as "comfort" in almost every context, but it is largely inadequate for getting across the full dimension of meanings at play; depending on the context, it might even better be translated as "protectedness", even if that is objectively not what the meaning of the word in a vacuum is. And that's on two languages that are linguistically very closely related; this problem is amplified by orders of magnitude when translating from something as different as Japanese.
I can see why Gendo hired Misato to do the actual commanding. He tried it once and did an appalling job. ~ AWinters
Your point of view is horny, and biased. ~ glitz2hard
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu
Your point of view is horny, and biased. ~ glitz2hard
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu
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Re: FGC translation for Rebuilds?
The role of a translator is to create a product which can be understood by people who are unable to understand the source language. In the case of Evangelion, the translator's role is to create an English product for people who don't speak Japanese.
Japanese animation attracts people whose knowledge of the Japanese language may be at any level from fluent, to intermediate, to beginner, to none at all. The translator's responsibility is to create a product which can be understood by "all of the above", and this means translating everything, not just the bits and bobs with which an intermediate language learner may not be familiar. You hear it in the crusades against translating "onii-chan" into "big brother", the indignation at the change of "nakama" to "crewmate". But just because someone who has dipped their toes into Japanese understands these words does not mean that the translator is required to cater to their limited knowledge and only translate "the other stuff".
Similarly, it is the responsibility of the film and television translator to create a product that is consumable in the moment, not one which requires a dictionary and additional research to understand. When we're attending a film or watching a TV broadcast, we don't want to whip out our phones to figure out what somebody said. You can't pause a movie for the whole theater while you read a three-sentence translator's note, or stop a live broadcast to figure out what that one untranslated word was.
There are of course always exceptions, times when it may be best to leave a word untranslated as okonomiyaki or trust that certain phrases such as je ne sais quoi have a reasonable expectation of being understood. Translation in the arts is reliant on functional rather than formal equivalence, which is a fancy way of saying "the specific Japanese words used matter less than what the specific Japanese words meant and why they were chosen." But this is left in the hands of the translator and their editors. (Often the end product, be it in a book, comic, or film, is not what the translator wrote but rather what an editor changed it to be. The translator is responsible for what they deliver to an editor, but the editor is responsible for the finished product.)
The subtitles for Shin Evangelion as they appear on Amazon Prime are fine. There are some things I'd do differently, but what exists is perfectly servicable. Translators sometimes make mistakes—heck, during my initial translations of material I made from the ripped subtitles between trips to the theater, my inability to always match what I saw on screen to what the subtitles said led me to accidentally omit portions of nuance which I later had to reinsert. But we do the best we can with the materials we have.
For what it's worth, speaking a language in and of itself is in no way a qualification to translate that language. Someone can speak two languages perfectly well, and have no earthly idea what they are doing when it comes to translation. (This is why most translators either study translation theory in university or find an already-established translator to take them under their wing.) And even then, translation is directional! I can translate from Japanese to English quite well, but have to refuse jobs that go the other way. My command of Japanese pales in comparison to my command of English, and without a native-level understanding of the language into which you are translating, you cannot hope to convey the nuance of your source text. It is far easier to UNDERSTAND the nuance in a foreign language and GENERATE it in your native language than it is to do this the other way around. There's a lot to consider when you're moving something as nebulous as "meaning" from one language to another, and it really helps if someone has taught you how to do it.
Japanese animation attracts people whose knowledge of the Japanese language may be at any level from fluent, to intermediate, to beginner, to none at all. The translator's responsibility is to create a product which can be understood by "all of the above", and this means translating everything, not just the bits and bobs with which an intermediate language learner may not be familiar. You hear it in the crusades against translating "onii-chan" into "big brother", the indignation at the change of "nakama" to "crewmate". But just because someone who has dipped their toes into Japanese understands these words does not mean that the translator is required to cater to their limited knowledge and only translate "the other stuff".
Similarly, it is the responsibility of the film and television translator to create a product that is consumable in the moment, not one which requires a dictionary and additional research to understand. When we're attending a film or watching a TV broadcast, we don't want to whip out our phones to figure out what somebody said. You can't pause a movie for the whole theater while you read a three-sentence translator's note, or stop a live broadcast to figure out what that one untranslated word was.
There are of course always exceptions, times when it may be best to leave a word untranslated as okonomiyaki or trust that certain phrases such as je ne sais quoi have a reasonable expectation of being understood. Translation in the arts is reliant on functional rather than formal equivalence, which is a fancy way of saying "the specific Japanese words used matter less than what the specific Japanese words meant and why they were chosen." But this is left in the hands of the translator and their editors. (Often the end product, be it in a book, comic, or film, is not what the translator wrote but rather what an editor changed it to be. The translator is responsible for what they deliver to an editor, but the editor is responsible for the finished product.)
The subtitles for Shin Evangelion as they appear on Amazon Prime are fine. There are some things I'd do differently, but what exists is perfectly servicable. Translators sometimes make mistakes—heck, during my initial translations of material I made from the ripped subtitles between trips to the theater, my inability to always match what I saw on screen to what the subtitles said led me to accidentally omit portions of nuance which I later had to reinsert. But we do the best we can with the materials we have.
For what it's worth, speaking a language in and of itself is in no way a qualification to translate that language. Someone can speak two languages perfectly well, and have no earthly idea what they are doing when it comes to translation. (This is why most translators either study translation theory in university or find an already-established translator to take them under their wing.) And even then, translation is directional! I can translate from Japanese to English quite well, but have to refuse jobs that go the other way. My command of Japanese pales in comparison to my command of English, and without a native-level understanding of the language into which you are translating, you cannot hope to convey the nuance of your source text. It is far easier to UNDERSTAND the nuance in a foreign language and GENERATE it in your native language than it is to do this the other way around. There's a lot to consider when you're moving something as nebulous as "meaning" from one language to another, and it really helps if someone has taught you how to do it.
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Apophenia. Noun. The tendency to perceive a connection or meaningful pattern between unrelated or random things.
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Apophenia. Noun. The tendency to perceive a connection or meaningful pattern between unrelated or random things.
They called me the Quentin Tarantino of hentai.
The difference between a blow-up doll and a dakimakura.
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