Pacific Rim

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Isn't the "wall of life" just a latter-day Maginot Line? An ill-advised, easily avoided, and monumentally expensive response to the last attack, which prevents meaningful preparation for the next one? Of course it was a stupid idea, but I thought Del Toro's point was that the council had made a stupid decision; one that leaders have historically made.

It could be that too. Dumb decisions made by fallible human persons or characters aren't really plot holes, especially when the historic events or plot and story progression shows them up for it.

[Bagheera]

In this case, the two dude becoming perfectly drift compatible is a plot hole because the plot in Pacific Rim used the drift compatibility as the main emotional thrust of the movie, AKA, to highlight the important parts of the drama. The writer did everything he could to explain it away, mainly be reducing the characters down to basic archetypes. (It's not wrong, I guess, in that sense.) But because it detracts from the highlighted drama of the film, it can be considered a plot-hole in Pacific Rim. (I'm not sure why you seem to be hung up on proving everything else is a plot hole when you have this bomb-shell right here to drop on me and end discussion.)

Because Gendo's Papa already nailed it and you already acknowledged it, so there's nothing left for me to do with it. We're just fussing about details at this point.

The wall? The Rift? The use of the cargo ship?

The cargo ship isn't a plot hole, it's just stupid. It wasn't on my initial list. The sword is a plot hole, albeit a minor one, because there was no reason not to use it from the outset -- it's an inconsistency deliberately placed for dramatic effect. I wouldn't even care about it if not for the fact that I have such a strong supers background; I learned how ships and buildings and such would react to people with super strength long ago, and giant robots are in a similar boat. Also, the fact that EoE did such a marvelous job of getting it (mostly) right plays against the scene in question. But again, not a plot hole.

The wall is a plot hole, since it's fundamental for establishing why the setting is the way it is. It shows us why no governments are directly involved with the program, why it's out of cash, basically why everything is the way it is. But it's absurd on its face; it strongly challenges the audience's SoD due to the "what if the climb/fly/go around?" question, and that's without taking the already established category progression into account. If the kaiju keep getting stronger, and they keep coming, how long can any wall really last?

(cost doesn't work as an argument, either; I don't know how much it costs to maintain a jaeger, but I do know we pour a huge chunk of money into our basic transportation needs. If we blow $70 billion at the federal level and quite a bit more at the state level just to maintain our roads how much more do you think it would cost to build, let alone maintain, a kaiju-proof wall around a continent (and that's assuming it could even be done; I have serious doubts about that, even if we devoted literally everything we have to making it happen)? I mean, just think about the scale of what we're talking about here. I can't be the only one who went "wait, what?" when that came onscreen in the theater. Of course that's not an inconsistency in the flow of the story, but since the story rests on the existence and presumed effectiveness of that wall I think it's fair to call it a plot hole.)

As for the rift, there are two problematic elements: why didn't anyone bother to test whether or not kaiju could go through both ways, and the story's ending. The first is obvious. The second can be summed up like so: if the aliens didn't have shields on their side of the rift it follows that there's nothing protecting our hero's escape pod when the Gipsy goes nuclear. Moreover, we actually see the rift collapse before the escape pod has had a chance to make it through the rift! This could have been addressed by sequencing the shots differently, but of course that would remove the (utterly predictable) tension about whether or not our hero survives. As is I found myself going "hey, wait a minute . . . " as soon as the second escape pod launched. Actually I was saying that as soon as the notion of escaping from Gipsy was put on the table, since that's a fucking lameass ending, but that's neither here nor there. The whole thing basically operated on Independence Day logic: great if you're willing to stretch your SoD that far, but if you're not . . .

[arkiel]

On another note I think the thing that most surprises me is the fact that nobody actually went down to the rift to find out how it works and why the bombs didn't shut it down. They've had years to suss this out, and nobody, public or private, sent a submersible down to do some basic recon? I would think determining whether or not the rift is two-way would be a top priority (and they had kaiju carcasses on hand, so it's not like they couldn't do some experimenting).

Well, I'm pretty sure Raleigh and Pentecost have an exchange where they talk about hitting the rift previously and shit just bouncing off. I don't know that tossing kaiju bones in there would be a logical step for researchers to take.

Or, given the toxicity and level of expertise Hannibal Chau supposedly had to employ to preserve kaiju remains, it might be that the component necessary to scan through the rift requires a fresh, or even still-living kaiju specimen. We can be pretty sure at least part of the category V wasn't totally dead when they hit the rift. Kaiju are supposed to dissolve pretty fast, except for the bones. Makes sense the bones wouldn't be what is required to trip the rift.

[Bagheera]

Well, I'm pretty sure Raleigh and Pentecost have an exchange where they talk about hitting the rift previously and shit just bouncing off. I don't know that tossing kaiju bones in there would be a logical step for researchers to take.

Or, given the toxicity and level of expertise Hannibal Chau supposedly had to employ to preserve kaiju remains, it might be that the component necessary to scan through the rift requires a fresh, or even still-living kaiju specimen. We can be pretty sure at least part of the category V wasn't totally dead when they hit the rift. Kaiju are supposed to dissolve pretty fast, except for the bones. Makes sense the bones wouldn't be what is required to trip the rift.

Yeah, if we got some sort of explanation about how only living kaiju could go through I'd be totally cool with it. That makes a lot of sense, actually; they're grown as bioweapons, so no need for them to last beyond their expiration date. But none of that was established, so sadness.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

But it's absurd on its face; it strongly challenges the audience's SoD due to the "what if the climb/fly/go around?" question, and that's without taking the already established category progression into account. If the kaiju keep getting stronger, and they keep coming, how long can any wall really last?

Kaiju that had the ability to climb or fly weren't introduced until after the decision to make the wall. And, again, I can't say it's a plot hole because it technically doesn't break my suspension of disbelief because the wall failed. If they built a wall and it worked, movie over and everything, then that wold break SoD. And, as it was pointed out before, dumb things that backfired happen in real life on multiple occasions.

At this point it's just a matter of preference, and not a shot at anything technical about the movie itself. (And plot holes usually aren't subject to interpretation. They're right up there with continuity errors. They're usually hard and fast inconsistencies in the plot progression that no amount of detailed analysis can turn up anything saving them.)

[Bagheera]

Kaiju that had the ability to climb or fly weren't introduced until after the decision to make the wall. And, again, I can't say it's a plot hole because it technically doesn't break my suspension of disbelief because the wall failed. If they built a wall and it worked, movie over and everything, then that wold break SoD. And, as it was pointed out before, dumb things that backfired happen in real life on multiple occasions.

Not on this scale. That's the problem; they talked about building a wall around Australia, or a wall from Alaska to California. And leaving aside the problem of climbing/flying (and I don't for a minute buy the notion that no kaiju ever climbed; that's so basic the entire notion they wouldn't be able to do it is absurd) what's to stop them from going around? Did they intend to build a wall covering all of North and South America? Because if they don't the kaiju will just walk along the wall until it ends, and then they get to go on a rampage inside.

But if no two kaiju are alike my first question as an engineer would be "wait, what if one of them can climb?" 'Cause that's a pretty obvious question to ask.

[hunterslullaby]

No wall can stop a sufficiently motivated attacker. But people still build them (see, Berlin, 1961-1989, for example) to deter intrusion by raising the threshold of commitment necessary to mount a successful attack. The reasoning behind the wall isn't that kaiju can never climb or traverse it. But we also know that the first attack (on San Francisco) was eventually defeated by conventional forces. The point is slowing down the kaiju enough to minimize damage while the conventional forces go to work.

And again, there's historical precedent for building big dumb walls. I would be very surprised if Del Toro and company did not have the Maginot Line in mind when they imagining the "Wall of Life."

[Bagheera]

No wall can stop a sufficiently motivated attacker. But people still build them (see, Berlin, 1961-1989, for example) to deter intrusion by raising the threshold of commitment necessary to mount a successful attack. The reasoning behind the wall isn't that kaiju can never climb or traverse it. But we also know that the first attack (on San Francisco) was eventually defeated by conventional forces. The point is slowing down the kaiju enough to minimize damage while the conventional forces go to work.

And again, there's historical precedent for building big dumb walls. I would be very surprised if Del Toro and company did not have the Maginot Line in mind when they imagining the "Wall of Life."

And again, you're ignoring the sheer scale of what's being proposed. It's like building thousands, even tens of thousands of Hoover dams over the span of just five years. That's just . . . no man. Just no.

[hunterslullaby]

And again, you're ignoring the sheer scale of what's being proposed. It's like building thousands, even tens of thousands of Hoover dams over the span of just five years. That's just . . . no man. Just no.

Ah. I mistakenly thought your objection to the wall was conceptual. I agree that as a practical matter, it's ridiculous. I reasoned (i.e., fanwanked) that the wall did not run from coast to coast, at least not as a 500' slab of steel and concrete. Since I start from the assumption that the wall isn't meant to stop the kaiju cold, but just to hinder hinder them long enough to mount a conventional defense, the "wall" could actually be a series of major fortifications like the ones we see, interspersed with stretches of much more modest defenses. I mean, we see the wall at Botany Bay/Sydney. I would imagine it's not quite the same at, say, Perth.

It's still not plausible, but there was enough space there for me to manually activate my SoD.

[arkiel]

But we also know that the first attack (on San Francisco) was eventually defeated by conventional forces. The point is slowing down the kaiju enough to minimize damage while the conventional forces go to work.

A nuke. It was killed with a nuke. More "conventional" than a Yaeger, I guess, but yeah. That was why they built Yaegers instead of more jet planes; they couldn't afford to drop a nuke everytime a kaiju showed up.

[hunterslullaby]

No N2 mines?

[Clover]

I wonder if Anno will see it. Does he have a twitter so we can ask him later?

[Blue Monday]

If Anno had a Twitter account I'd imagine that'd be kind of a big deal around here.

[Dragunov]

While the plot has plenty of plot holes, but I'm not here for a spectacular extremely deep plot. I'm here to watch a hot blooded pilot beat the crap out of giant monsters, like they owed him money. And that's exactly what I got.

One of my favorite parts of the visuals was how the Jaegers 'felt'. Gypsy walked and fought like a 80 meter tall war machine. It didn't do acrobatics and ju jitsu like, it just brought it's massive fist into the Kaijuu's face, without any fancy techniques. Cherno looked like a juggernaut, and acted like one. Typhoon and Eureka were designed to be more agile, similarly had that feel about it.

Also:
>Be one of the first Ranger teams
>Serve in one of the earliest Jaegers
>Serve seven long years on the Kamchatka coast in the most godless, blighted, ass-end forsaken back corner of Siberia
>watch every other Ranger team assigned to your Shatterdome get picked off one by one, two by two
>Each fight, old Cherno Alpha comes home with bigger dents and even worse damage, and the repairs and retrofits keep falling just a bit more behind
>Know that eventually it'll be you that doesn't come back after a sortie, but soldiers of the Motherland either return victorious or not at all

Being the Kaidonovskiys is suffering.

>Pilot the second most advanced Jaeger in the world
>Be the pride of China, defend one of China's largest coastal cities 7 times
>You and your brothers are killed in under an hour

My main gripe with the film was the lack of characterization of the Russians and Chinese.

I feel the best scene in the film was when Herc was sending his son off with Pentecost. Once Chuck told him to take care of the dog, you knew there was only one way this would end.

All in all, a fun movie.

[arkiel]

My main gripe with the film was the lack of characterization of the Russians and Chinese.

Are you kidding? When faced down with Gipsy Danger's plasma canon, the Russian chick was all "pfff, whatever" and strolled out of the path of its blast.

[Maru]

Are you kidding? When faced down with Gipsy Danger's plasma canon, the Russian chick was all "pfff, whatever" and strolled out of the path of its blast.

For me, it wasn't so much a lack of characterization as a lack of use of the characters. The casually strolling away from the blast path of the plasma cannon is a case in point. The Russians in particular interested me, and the Chinese triplets were awesome too. The triplets' Jaeger had a third freaking arm, and the Russian couple was so hard that they defended the entire Siberian coastline, by themselves, for six years, and never once let a Kaiju get past them. They had so much awesome, and they were talked up as total bad-asses.

And then they got killed by those two Kaiju in about five minutes.

And I'm like "Seriously? Come on, this is disappointing." It was a total waste of material. I'm glad we got to see what little of them we did, but they were killed too quickly and too soon. You've got to get to know the cast before you kill the cast. I was expecting to see them kick a little bit more ass before Raleigh and Mako inevitably took center stage. All we knew about the Russians and the Chinese was that they were awesome. I didn't even realize until I came here later on that the Russians were a married couple. It was a total waste of material, and in my opinion one of the biggest examples of why the film should have been longer, or should have been done in two parts. I can definitely see the argument for getting it all done in one film, but... there should have been more. As great as the movie was, it was rushed, and it could have used a little longer to play itself out.

So... yeah. In a manner of speaking, I agree with both of you, Arkiel and Dragunov. I thought there was a good amount of characterization for the Russian and Chinese teams, but I wish there had been more and that they had done more with the Russians and Chinese, and the facts that there wasn't and that they didn't were two of the weak points of the film. Not huge weak points, but still, a point of contention.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

An interesting article I found about Pacific Rim.

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

That woman sounds a lot like me, and is describing why she liked it for a lot of the same reasons that I did. Huh.

EDIT: Just had a holy fuck moment; that entire review can also apply to Evangelion 3.33.

[soul.assassin]

[Mr. Tines]

Well, the Japanese have already built a couple of Gundams and a Labor...