@LazyPOS Gawdayum, I've got to say that I wasn't really thinking about some of those points you've made and I don't particularly agree with all, but you're definitely right on the breather episodes and Kaworu. Kaworu, for being this crucial, had an absolutely miniscule amount of screentime and it's beyond amazing that it was about enough to solidify his role, but it's definitely a minimum. Given that he was the (second to) last angel, it would imply that the episodes including him would have been more interaction and introspection driven, especially considering the fact that most of Shinji's friends were just gone by then, Asuka was broken and Rei was... something. Although, I guess it would have given Anno time to show just what exactly was going on with them, with anyone, really. So much had happened, so much was lost, a peer into the lives of everyone involved would have been quite something to experience.

I've got one question, however:

LazyPOS wrote:Give Kensuke something to do. Like showing his reaction to Bardiel incident, or deciding that he doesn't want to be a pilot, or at least aknowledging that piloting the Eva is not a s rad as he thinks. He was the only character I felt genuine hate about while watching Eva.

I do fully agree that Kensuke had this particular potential and what's especially noteworthy is how he somehow just manages to get classified information from somewhere and far too little is explained.
But what exactly makes you outright hate him?
Surely, he was truly oblivious to the absolute terror (pun not intended) and pain being an Eva pilor actually brings about, but I'd argue that he came to understand that in episode in episode 3... Although, I do admit that he was overjoyed many more times after that, seemingly blissfully ignorant of the dangers at hand, but I'd argue that he no longer marginalised the responsibility of being a pilot.

Oh, does the fact of how he just stood there, letting Toji punch Shinji, also contribute something to your view of him?

VindexTD wrote:1) The way Asuka's absolutely despicable behaviour is just tolerated by the adults, mostly.
I love and respect her for the person she really is beneath all that sass and trauma, obviously, but I think it's safe to say that everyone would agree that her behaviour towards Shinji, her pervasive narcissism and overall aggression, insolence, etc, is just not okay, especially since it has also led to her endangering her team mates. Normally, a responsible adult would try to get that under control, let alone a superior of a militaristic secret organisation with the purpose of saving the world, yet whenever she displays these traits, consequences rarely ever hit her. Shinji gets shat on and the adults just dismiss it as kids being kids, even if he didn't do a thing. In the episode "Both of you, dance like you want to win", when Shinji had a way easier time dancing in sync with Rei, Asuka got childishly offended and Hikari demanded Shinji go apologise, like ????????

I dare argue that not only would it have reduced the extend of the torture porn these scenes essentially felt like, but it would have contributed to the realism of the humanity at play: It would have both expanded on the interactions that could have been had, but would have also created more, and more realistic, conflict for Asuka and potentially more insight into her mind earlier on.

Yeah, I definitely agree with that. It’s always rubbed me the wrong way how Asuka gets away with all her verbal and physical abuse of Shinji scot-free, and I think that’s one of the main reasons why I absolutely hated her character on my first viewing. I wanted to slap her in her spoiled little face and tell her to stop being such a jackass. Other characters making more negative comments on Asuka’s attitude, and Misato reprimanding Asuka for her actions, would both help the show be more realistic and make Asuka less of a stereotypical tsundere.

BusterMachine4 wrote:Yeah, I definitely agree with that. It’s always rubbed me the wrong way how Asuka gets away with all her verbal and physical abuse of Shinji scot-free, and I think that’s one of the main reasons why I absolutely hated her character on my first viewing. I wanted to slap her in her spoiled little face and tell her to stop being such a jackass.

Oh brother, preach it, I hated her fucking guts up until Arael raped her mind into oblivion, at which point things started to change for me, obviously, and I felt bad and started to empathise. But even now, rewatching the series with all that in mind, it does not sufficiently help me judge her less for this shit.
Like: Yeah, I now know you've got some serious issues, gurl, and I respect that, but cOULD YOU NOT-

It is, frankly, a real shame how much potential went to waste right there, let alone how this flaw ended up hurting the human aspect of the story. In the end, the biggest factors - the things that happened in EoE, the most important moments of intimacy or conflict between Shinji and Asuka, etc. - do overshadow this flaw enough for it to not affect the core message and the value of the ending, but that doesn't really excuse this issue.

VindexTD wrote:I do fully agree that Kensuke had this particular potential and what's especially noteworthy is how he somehow just manages to get classified information from somewhere and far too little is explained.
But what exactly makes you outright hate him?

Well, hate is a strong word, but I feel that he didn't change at all, even after he should have. The moment I'm talking about is the phone call to Shinji in ep19, where he's still envious of Toji of all people.

VindexTD wrote:1) The way Asuka's absolutely despicable behaviour is just tolerated by the adults, mostly.
I love and respect her for the person she really is beneath all that sass and trauma, obviously, but I think it's safe to say that everyone would agree that her behaviour towards Shinji, her pervasive narcissism and overall aggression, insolence, etc, is just not okay, especially since it has also led to her endangering her team mates. Normally, a responsible adult would try to get that under control, let alone a superior of a militaristic secret organisation with the purpose of saving the world, yet whenever she displays these traits, consequences rarely ever hit her. Shinji gets shat on and the adults just dismiss it as kids being kids, even if he didn't do a thing. In the episode "Both of you, dance like you want to win", when Shinji had a way easier time dancing in sync with Rei, Asuka got childishly offended and Hikari demanded Shinji go apologise, like ????????

I always thought that the reason NERV treated her behavior with indifference is because she truly is replaceable to both Gendo and SEELE beyond her piloting skills, compared to Rei and Shinji. Most of the NERV staff doesn't care about the well being of the pilots. That's unrealistic, but story would have been totally different if kids got proper support. Misato at least tries but fails due to her shortcomings, and she unintentionally favores Shinji compared to Asuka.
And Hikari reacts like that for a very human reason: we are more tolerant to the shortcomings of our close friends.

LazyPOS wrote:I always thought that the reason NERV treated her behavior with indifference is because she truly is replaceable to both Gendo and SEELE beyond her piloting skills, compared to Rei and Shinji. Most of the NERV staff doesn't care about the well being of the pilots. That's unrealistic, but story would have been totally different if kids got proper support. Misato at least tries but fails due to her shortcomings, and she unintentionally favores Shinji compared to Asuka.
And Hikari reacts like that for a very human reason: we are more tolerant to the shortcomings of our close friends.

Well, I can buy the NERV people not caring about Asuka (they don't really care about anybody), but I'm not so sure about the rest. I wouldn't say Misato tried, or even favored Shinji. In fact, she seemed completely okay with Asuka's abuse of Shinji, which is exactly what we're complaining about. And Hikari wasn't friends with Asuka at the time, they barely knew each other. Which makes Hikari blaming Shinji for Asuka's whiny breakdown even weirder. Like, if anyone made Asuka cry, it was Misato suggesting that Rei replace her. Shinji had nothing to do with it, which is why the scene has a sort of "Shinji torture porn" feeling.

I really should rewatch NGE (I'm planning to do it with a first-watcher when she has time), it seems I forgot some stuff and order of events. I was convinced Israfel episode was not the first one after her introduction

LazyPOS wrote:I was convinced Israfel episode was not the first one after her introduction

It is. Episode 8 is "Asuka Strikes," where Asuka is introduced and fights Gaghiel, and Episode 9 is "Both of You, Dance Like You Want to Win," where Shinji and Asuka fight Israfel to teach a cheesy lesson about teamwork. There's really not enough time for anyone to become friends with Asuka by the time the whole Twister training sequence happens.

BusterMachine4 wrote:I wouldn't say Misato tried, or even favored Shinji. In fact, she seemed completely okay with Asuka's abuse of Shinji, which is exactly what we're complaining about.

What...? Misato tries to get Asuka off Shinji's back and acts as a mediator between them all the time. That's, like, the whole dynamic between those three. She also (quite noticeably imo) favors Shinji over Asuka. Look at how Misato deals with Shinji having a breakdown vs. Asuka having a breakdown. Misato clearly does not have maternal feelings for Asuka like she has for Shinji. In fact, I think Shinji is treated much better by NERV in general than Asuka is, with her being the most disposable pilot. Again, comparing how both are treated under similar circumstances reveals the difference. It takes less than a day to track down and retrieve Shinji after he runs off while Asuka goes missing for a week and almost kills herself in the process.

Say what you want about Asuka being a bitch throughout the series, but I feel uncomfortable framing her as "the abuser" in their relationship when by the end Shinji does things to her that are pretty inarguably more reprehensible than what she does. Even early on Shinji shows some creepy tendencies, attempting to kiss her in her sleep. They both treat each other badly and I do believe that is largely the point.

baldur wrote:Say what you want about Asuka being a bitch throughout the series, but I feel uncomfortable framing her as "the abuser" in their relationship when by the end Shinji does things to her that are pretty inarguably more reprehensible than what she does. Even early on Shinji shows some creepy tendencies, attempting to kiss her in her sleep. They both treat each other badly and I do believe that is largely the point.

Well, Shinji did some pretty crappy stuff in EoE, but by that point he had already gone completely off the deep end, partially due to Asuka’s abuse. Let’s look at the crappy stuff Asuka did to Shinji, just in the first few episodes:

She slapped Shinji in the face because the wind blew up her skirt.
She banged on Shinji’s head like a bongo when he touched her Eva’s controls.
She moved all of Shinji’s stuff out of his room, despite them sharing that room together.
She repeatedly physically abused Shinji while they were training for the battle with Israfel.
She punched Shinji when his Eva accidentally landed on top of hers, despite being a hologram. Asuka can apparently violate the laws of physics just to torment Shinji more.
She kicked Shinji in the face 20 times when he accidentally looked at her skirt.

And those were just the physical abuse moments, I haven’t even mentioned the verbal abuse yet. Other than trying to kiss Asuka in her sleep (which wouldn’t even harm her in any way), Shinji never did anything as bad as what Asuka did until his mental breakdown.

Okay, let's start by talking about the objective stuff. In this specific scene, Asuka and Hikari were already friends. I mean, they were nurturing their bond. That's why Hikari went to see Asuka in the first place. They were not very close (as evidenced by Hikari calling Asuka "Miss Soryu"), but there was already something going on between them. Anyway, this line speaks more about Hikari as a person than as a friend. She is a "traditional girl" with a strong personality. Of course she would say that to him. In the end, Asuka wasn't blaming Shinji for what had just happened and he understood that. Instead, she was being hurt by her own inability to be perfect all the time (which is a recurring theme for her character).
That's the thing with Asuka. The person she hurts the most is herself. I recently rewatched the series and failed to see where Asuka was that bad of a person. Sure, she can be annoying. But that's basically it. I've seen much worse and inhumane actions coming from other character of the series (including Shinji). In most cases, no one even cares about her taunts (just look at episode 11). Asuka's only accomplishment is to isolate and torture herself. That's miserable. Scenes that were meant to be comical are completely recontextualized after we understand what’s actually going on behind the curtains. That’s why it doesn't matter if Misato scolds her or not. Nobody is rebuking her, but nobody is helping her either. Asuka is almost alone and definitely destroying herself. That's what sets her apart from the usual tsundere. Her mental illness is not romanticized at all.
It's sad because, underneath all her insecurities and traumas, there is a cool person. I mean, we see a lot of nice moments from Asuka during the series. Examples of this can be seen in episodes 10 (when she thanks Shinji for helping her out), 12 (when she chooses to go to a lamen restaurant, knowing about Misato's financial situation and Ayanami's vegetarian lifestyle), 15 (when she honestly praises Ikari for playing the cello), 18 (when she calms Hikari down by talking to her) and so on. It's just that she had some problems to work around and wasn't in a favorable environment do that. It's pretty much the same with Shinji and Misato. Just as episodes 25 and 26 suggest, their problems are all intertwined. These people are fairly similar and definitely flawed. Misato failed as a tutor and she knew that. She had her own agenda, aspirations and objectives that were completely detached from the pilots. It would be nice if every character had the opportunity to live a healthy life from the start, but that just wasn't the case.

BernardoCairo wrote:I recently rewatched the series and failed to see where Asuka was that bad of a person.

Read my post above.

And I know that Asuka has a lot of issues based around her troubled childhood. But that doesn’t mean it’s okay for her to be a total jackass. I feel like a lot of people are looking at her actions from a “ha ha, funny anime tsundere” perspective, without considering how her actions and words would harm people in real life. Because they definitely would be harmful.

BusterMachine4 wrote:Read my post above.

That list made me laugh a bit hahaha! There is nothing major here. Shinji hardly cared about any of this. Most of it were comedic moments. Asuka was the least of his problems. What he did to her was infinitely worse in every conceivable way.

BernardoCairo wrote:That list made me laugh a bit hahahaha! There is nothing major here. Most of it were comedic moments.

You just illustrated my point exactly. Because the scenes are comedic, it’s easy to brush them aside and think of them as just lighthearted slapstick. But in reality, if you pummel someone repeatedly for minorly inconveniencing you, and constantly berate that person and call them stupid, that’s gonna do some lasting psychological damage. Asuka’s actions are certainly not harmless.

And I continue to fail to see how Shinji is the bad guy in his relationship with Asuka. Sure, he tried to kiss her in her sleep, and he did a bunch of shitty stuff in EoE. But nothing that Shinji did to Asuka before his breakdown in EoE is anywhere near as bad as what Asuka did to Shinji.

BusterMachine4 wrote:But in reality, if you pummel someone repeatedly for minority inconveniencing you, and constantly berate that person and call them stupid, that’s gonna do some lasting psychological damage

That may be the case for you and I respect that. However, that was not how Shinji felt at all. He was never shown to be "psychologically damaged" by these specific sequences. Sure, he was confused. But that was pretty much it. What led him to take the actions he took during EoE had nothing to do with any of the points on your list. By the way, I don't care if he mistreated Asuka after his "breakdown" or not. What that guy did is unacceptable and inhumane. This is something that traumatizes women around the world on a daily basis. In some cases, turning their lives into literal hells.
Anyway, let's do an exercise. I noticed that we both made lists containing some moments from Asuka. So let me ask you a couple of questions. Which list displays the most character driven sequences? Which list is talking about actual scenes that add weight to the story and are definitely longer than 10 frames? Now, which list explores a segment that is all about a hologram punching a guy? Yeah...
I got what you're saying, but I'm not buying it. If Shinji cared about any of this, you would have a point. But that's not the case. In fact, he usually ignores her during these sequences (again, look at episode 11).
You see, I respect you as a Evangelion fan and understand that this is your opinion. I mean, we disagree immensely. But that's ok. That said, I'm moving away from this discussion (because I know we're just going to run in circles, otherwise). I said what I had to say.

I think calling it "abuse" is going too far & diluting the term (not every conflict is abuse; Abuse is a pattern of systemic intimidation)

But it would certainly call it bullying. (and I'd argue that she's way worse to Rei; At least with Shinji there was a period where they sort of nominally got along)
Bullying does cause serious trauma & can affect people way into their old age just as being molested does, it's no joke. In fact it is often based on the same kind of power play.


Maybe the semi-comedic physical altercations are written off as slapstick (I definitely got into physical fights with my sister when I was Asuka's age, but the one time I kicked her like that I got a well-deserved Big Serious Scolding... just look at how differently the situation with Touji in ep 14 is treated, so I too would tone down the slapstick here if I'd been in charge.)

But the conflict/abrasiveness overall isn't played for laughs. (nor is the implied altercation in 24' when Asuka throws that coffee machine)
And Shinji was definitely affected.
The best example is ep 12 where he goes from happy about finally getting the recognition he wanted to feeling bad about that. Or like a thousand times when Asuka is like "you're an idiot!" & he just resignedly agrees. He's actually repeatedly shown to pretty sensitive to her bad treatment.

I mean in episode 16 everyone at NERV more or less presumes him dead, and Asuka's like, "Haha, serves him right!"
Yeah she did check on him afterwards (but she tried to not be noticed lest he think that people care if he lives or dies) but that's a pretty low bar considering that this is someone who has been her flatmate for months at this point.

So maybe he didn't read her mind & realize she was hitting on him but that's cause she sent very mixed signals.
Like making a big point of how she was doing the kissing just for experimenting/ to try it & then being upset that he didn't do anything romantic... miss, you explicitly just said "No romance"

That's like the kiddie equivalent of saying you'll have casual sex & then being upset that the person doesn't end up dating you. & getting a casual makeout out of to someone who has a crush on you is a dick move anyways.

That's why I really wish the alt life action scene had been left in 'cause it really goes into Asuka's character flaws.

For the majority of the series she is mean to him just 'cause she dislikes him, and he tries to be nice & concilliatory throughout.

At the very end in a very extreme situation while he was having a bigass mental breakdown, there was a point where he snapped and went overboard in disproportionate retaliation. This is a "Britney spears shaving her head & showing her junk in public" type of situation.
That doesn't make it okay or justified what he did, but it is by no means the same act as if he'd done that unprovoked or just 'cause he felt like it like the type of ppl the above poster is alluding to.
If a beaten wife snaps & murders the husband that's not ok but it's not the same as a random murder for money or whatever. You'd still go to jail, but you'd probably get a lower jail sentence.

That said, Asuka is, at worst, mean schoolgirl. She is that way because her own home life sucks, and because we're all born as ignorant uncivilized apes until education, parenting and wisdom makes us otherwise. I'm not saying she should be reviled or anything, the worst she deserves is a stern serious talking to from an adult & maybe to have her tv privileges revoked for a bit.

Likewise, I see Shinji as very unlikely to go choking any more people unless he gets involved in another protracted war.

Thank you for delivering such a great take, Kendrix. You summed up my opinions much better than I ever could.

You're right that Asuka's not a monster, and I guess "abuse" was too strong a word. But Asuka is definitely a bully, and her actions and words have a clear negative effect on Shinji's psyche. The only crime I see Shinji being guilty of when he still had his sanity is not being able to read Asuka's mind, and that's hardly an unforgivable offense. When someone constantly beats you up and insults you, it's only natural to want to avoid contact with them.

And I agree that context is important when it comes to weighing Shinji's EoE actions. If he just naturally jacked off to Asuka's comatose body and tried to choke her to death, without any previous factors, that would be pretty despicable. But those actions only happened after a long history of psychological trauma. Shinji is a good kid at heart, and I'd say that he had the moral high ground over Asuka for most of the show.

One thing that needs to be clarified is that I don't think Asuka is a saint at all. The way she pushes others away is definitely not something that I would call "healthy". I just don't believe that she's an irredeemable person. Yeah, she can hurt Shinji. Kendrix gave some good examples of that. I still think that the hologram sequence is a bit wacky, though hahaha. In a perfect world, someone would put limits on her. That would be good for her own self, honestly. But I can't blame Misato for failing in this regard. She just had her own problems to get around.

Anyway, I want to talk about two things in particular.
- The "comedic" moments: I partially agree with you, BM4. As I said before, scenes that were meant to be comical are completely recontextualized after we understand what’s actually going on behind the curtains. I'm just not sure if you gathered good examples of that. Anyway, as I said before, Asuka is capable of hurting Shinji and that's not up for debate. Being called an idiot everyday? Sure, I wouldn't mind. But Ikari suffers from an inferiority complex of sorts. One scene that always comes to my mind is the cello segment. Even when Asuka is rightfully praising him, Shinji is simply unable to take the compliments.
- Shinji's actions during EoE: You see, I understand Shinji and I definitely don't think that he did it just because he felt like it. I personally believe that it had less to do with Asuka and more to do with himself. That said, this is a sensitive subject for me. I know a couple of girls who have gone through similar situations and I am aware of how their consequences can stifle someone's life. I saw these people suffering and I couldn't do anything about it. As a man, I could barely imagine their pain. That's why that particular scene felt so disgusting to me. I don't see Shinji as a monster and I think that he has a lot of room for improvement. I mean, he's just 14. But it's tough for me to watch that sequence, nevertheless. It truly makes me feel miserable and powerless. Sure, context is important. However, there are some things that I have difficulty digesting and accepting. This type of behavior is one of them. Anyway, I shouldn't be talking about it here.

Well, that's it. In conclusion, I don't think that Asuka's bullying is good for Shinji at all. But I don't see her as an irredeemable person. Likewise, I don't believe that Shinji is a monster. But what he did was horrible and makes me feel sick. Both of them have room for improvement. Unfortunately, there was no space for parenting in the story. I do personally believe that Misato did her best, though.
That's it. I hope this post was clear to understand, as I'm trying to avoid misinterpretations.

One thing to remember in all this was that Misato had been Asuka's handler in Germany, so had already reached the limits of what she could do to manage her.

BusterMachine4 wrote:She moved all of Shinji’s stuff out of his room, despite them sharing that room together.

They never shared a room -- Asuka just moved in, and selected the room she wanted while Shinji was out.

You know what I would change in Evangelion, the only thing I would change is the plot of the movie 3.0 because it is illogical.

VindexTD wrote:
The way Asuka's absolutely despicable behaviour is just tolerated by the adults, mostly.

Well, Nerv not particularly caring makes sense considering the general "inhuman oppressive organization" vibes it constantly gives off. Misato I think is someone who at least intuitively understands what's the right thing to do, but fails to do it due to her own problems (which does include a lack of trying to deal with stuff she has to, but does not wish to deal with i.e. a lack of responsibility) anyway. Hikari is, as BernardoCairo said, a pretty traditional girl who has some pretty old-fashioned views. (That particular characteristic of hers is something I think is later on contrasted with her incapability to offer adequate help to Asuka, as her statically remaining interested in the "old" means she is unable to progress into an understanding of the problems of people dealing with something horrifyingly "new" (which piloting a biomechanical creature into battle against other creatures at the age of fourteen definitely is; this even works in a meta way, if Asuka's problems are also to be considered as at least partially the aftereffects of a certain sort of psychological trauma and alienation induced by technological developments -that's just a theory, of course, though I am increasingly feeling like technology plays a more important part in Eva's themes than I previously assumed)).

The lack of backstory.

I get what you're saying, but personally I feel certain characters work better without that much backstory. We get just enough to Gendo to understand how he became the Commander of Nerv, for example, but not enough to make his EoE reveal of genuinely loving Shinji something that the vast majority of people could reasonably expect based on clues. (And I do think it works a lot better as something very surprising). As for Shinji, then I just don't feel it matters. Firstly, NGE enjoys leaving plenty of things to the imagination and secondly, Shinji's essential characteristics would remain much the same regardless of whether or not we'd get insight into his pre-piloting past. A scene of Shinji failing to make friends in 1st grade wouldn't tell us more than what we already can glean from his general state of interacting with other humans.

Last but not least, Eva 3.0 RELIES on us being completely oblivious to what the fuck went on in the previous 14 years and that's hard to pull off and a delicate beauty to maintain, but I think they did that really well.

Yeah, Q is brilliant.

Kendrix wrote:
Like making a big point of how she was doing the kissing just for experimenting/ to try it & then being upset that he didn't do anything romantic... miss, you explicitly just said "No romance"

Not only that, Asuka didn't even let him breathe during the kissing, so of course he would be less than interested in "proper romance" even more than he usually would.

BernardoCairo wrote:
As I said before, scenes that were meant to be comical are completely recontextualized after we understand what’s actually going on behind the curtains.

I think there's an interesting question to be asked about how much certain ostensibly comedic scenes should be discussed in terms of the realistic consequences of what they show, following NGE's latter-half interest in recontextualizing several ideas and moments presented previously. I do think that just because a lot of Asuka's abuse toward Shinji was presented comedically, doesn't mean it's not serious, especially when she also abuses him in the latter half, where her actions are presented in a more serious light and as being worryingly similar to her "comedic" abuses at times.

(Also, just because Shinji has an inferiority complex doesn't mean he likes being called an idiot or that calling him an idiot is alright).

Asugran223 wrote:
You know what I would change in Evangelion, the only thing I would change is the plot of the movie 3.0 because it is illogical.

I'm quite certain the plot of Q not making a lot of sense at first glance is an intended effect. However, I do think that the more the film is viewed, the more several parts of it do make sense-and based on what I know of Shin, it seems that clears up a few things as well.