Derantor wrote:Looking at the broader context of the series, she demands that he isn't so self-deprecatory and "grows a spine", basically. Not responsibility in the sense of preparing dinner, but responsibility in the sense that he acts of his own volition. "Hold me, kiss me, save me, but do something! Be a man!" Responsibility comes in many forms - brushing your teeth, preparing dinner and keeping your room tidy are important and responsible behaviours, but aren't exactly high achievements. Even her demand for absolutely everything from him (without any reciprocity that I can see) is a veiled demand that he takes on the responsibility for her wellbeing, becoming an adult like Kaji.

I agree that thematically this fits, but only in the post-3I framework. I think Eva is paying attention to the reasons Asuka demands the relationship, I think it thematically tries to get at why self-love is important, and that lacking it will lead you to hell/ non-existence.

Only in post-3I have Asuka and Shinji been able to take a full inventory of their issues, and be in a position to ask for something genuine. To start from self-love, and move forward.

And we see that embodied in the box art for what I believe is EoE EDIT: Box set extra, a movie calendar:


Shinji is even wearing Misato's cross, representing that a burden has been passed on. A sign of accepting maturity.

Edit: So, while I jokingly referred to them as the OTP of the series, it was meant in this thematic context.

OTP is Shinji and his right hand, that's pretty clear.

Whether it's fisting Touji's face, grabbing Rei boob, pulling his bow, close ups of him opening and closing, the power is in his hand. The God hand. For which the him that is in Yui can make or unmake the Earth.

Asuka knows the power of this hand, that's why she's reaching out for it there. Not creeped out at all.

Alaska Slim wrote:And we see that embodied in the box art for what I believe is EoE

SPOILER: Show

Is there an official source for that confirms that as box art?

Arcadia's legacy wrote:Is there an official source for that confirms that as box art?

Ain't that from the Die Sterne artbook? Never heard anything about it being box art.

(Looks up Die Sterne and Evangelion)
Ah, so it is official somewhat. I was briefly worried that you may have confused doujinshi art for the real thing. Perhaps it's the Re-Take vibes i get from the image?

I apologize, it was used as a box set extra, a movie calendar in 2001. And yes, it's in Die Sterne.

Evacommentary used to have a link confirming this, but it's dead.

I agree with what you're saying Alaska, and I do think that that artwork does fit quite nicely into it, but while I'm convinced that noone currently in this thread is gonna do it, I still feel somewhat compelled to note that we might not want to rely on supplementary material like that all too much, lest we fall back to times like a certain infamous thread from a few years back that also happened to be one of my first contact points with EGF long before I even made an account in all of its "but this poster depicts a different set of characters".

EDIT: Could have sworn I've already replied to this before, but evidently I didn't; while uni for the next week still firmly has me in its clutches and prevents me from fully indulging in the analysis, I do find this whole angle rather interesting and to second what Reichu said, somewhat uncomfortable to watch, which is probably intended, so I'm curious to hat other logical extremes this might lead

Since it came up in the Trailer thread:

Kendrix wrote:So... Kaworu takes full responsibility for his own plan failing, and that's a bad thing?

No. But it proves that Shinji had almost no control over the situation whatsoever; it all went according to Kaworu's plan. A plan he didn't know, because Kaworu never informed him. Kaworu never even told Shinji that he knew him beforehand. Doesn't that strike you as somewhat odd? Seems a lot less innocent than their NGE interactions to me.

As for the other thing: I was simply pointing out that "We are told explicitly directly 100% to your face that Kaworu (& Rei) represent hope, communication & words of affirmation" isn't as 100% unambigious in EoE itself. Even there, the concept of pure love is portrayed as an illusion (or a prayer, if you like that term more). In any case, that has still no explanatory power towards NTE!Kaworu at all, as that's a different character with a different backstory, a different motivation (make Shinji happy at all costs vs. start Third Impact via merger with Adam), in a story that unfolds entirely differently from NGE. I don't know, that sounds like explaining why Shinji seems to be afraid of Misato in NGE by pointing out that she strapped a bomb-collar around his neck in Q.

Derantor wrote:But it proves that Shinji had almost no control over the situation whatsoever; it all went according to Kaworu's plan.

Except that Kaworu's plan blew up and straight into his face before its first stage was even completed; then he had to improvise to make Shinji as save and happy as possible in such circumstances, and he failed even at that.

You (and Reichu) keep forgetting one thing: Kaworu talks to Shinji in NERV HQ and later in Unit 13, where they are wiretapped round the clock by Gendo. Wiretapping can be countered two ways: (1) keeping your mouth shut and speaking aloud only what's absolutely necessary, while (2) making yourself sound like a patsy, hoping that wiretapper will underestimate you and neglect something. That's what Kaworu did. Assuming that he was aware of what Gendo wants - to get rid of SEELE child - he decided to gamble for his own survival, for whatever reason; maybe he became a piano addict, which pushed Shinji's happiness down in his agenda. And you expect him to begin such game from sharing all the plan, all its secret details with his mortal enemy. You are both nuts.

ErgoProxy wrote:
You are both nuts.

No need to be so condescending and personal. Discuss the arguments, don't attack the argumentators.


Discussing your own argument here, I don't think what you said has proof anyway nor does it hold up on examination. You say that HQ was wiretapped, even though we've never even had so much as a hit that this is true and Kaworu could have told Shinji things elsewhere (I seriously doubt the ruins of Tokyo-3 would be full of wiretaps as well). You say that Kaworu knew about Gendo's plans to get rid of him, despite the fact that this would be an important plot point that as of now has not ever been so far as hinted at. You say that Shinji is Kaworu's "mortal enemy" for some reason, despite Shinji having been shown as the only person Kaworu cares about at all. When he stopped 3I, what did Kaworu say? "This time, Shinji Ikari, I will show you true happiness." That was the most important thing for him. Maybe all of what you said is true, but based on the info we have right now, all of this is just headcanon without support from the artwork.

Reichu's ideas make a lot more sense than yours. Kaworu talks about Shinji from the moment we see him, he barely seems to consider anyone else important, he tells Shinji very little in Q and when he does, it's all suspiciously vague. He talks about giving Shinji happiness, but never asks him what he would want, having decided already. All of this lines up with Reichu's interpretation that Kaworu isn't all he seems and is unhealthily fixated on Shinji. To me, it seems less theorizing and more stating the obvious. Why he's obsessed with Shinji is of course pure theorizing, but the beginning from where Reichu developed her theories is pretty much what's already happened, already in NTE.

I would also like to reclarify again that saying Kaworu is a flawed character, does not make him a villain. Villains are exceedingly rare in Eva (Seele are the only ones who could perhaps pass the test, but even they're more sort of philosophers than a standard Palpatine, who just does evil because) and saying that Kaworu is unhealthily fixated on Shinji is not the equivalent of saying "Kaworu is an evil rapist" at all.

ErgoProxy wrote:And you expect him to begin such game from sharing all the plan, all its secret details with his mortal enemy. You are both nuts.

Zusuchan already said most of what I would have answered. And no, we don't expect him to share secrets with his mortal enemy. We expect him to treat Shinji as a human being and not an object, as he does in Q. Shinji as a person doesn't really matter to Kaworu - same goes the other way around. And I doubt Gendo and Fuyutsuki would have grown suspicious if Kaworu sat down with Shinji and asked him "How are you feeling?" - in fact, they would be elated, since they *wanted* Kaworu to convince Shinji to pilot. There's no reason to bring them into contact otherwise. Kaworu showing empathy is entirely possible; instead, Kaworu assumes stuff and tells Shinji how Shinji is feeling.

Anyway, seems like Reichu is still reading along here: she posted a response on her blog.

Holy hell, Reichu noticed me! Even though I don’t agree with her theories, I still feel honored.

It was nice of her to provide a post clarifying her opinions on Kaworu, and I understand her views a lot more now. I was probably hasty to say she thinks Kaworu is evil, and the fact that the piano thread was intended to be over-dramatic causes it to make a lot more sense now. I get her point that Kaworu was probably trying to manipulate Shinji at least partially, and his constant withholding of information is evidence enough. I may still think that Kaworu is better than Reichu gives him credit for, but at least I understand her point of view now.

Zusuchan wrote:No need to be so condescending and personal. Discuss the arguments, don't attack the argumentators.

I need to apologize; some bad habits from another (religious) forum keep haunting me and the very name of Reichu triggers me to write things I regret afterwards.

Zusuchan wrote:You say that HQ was wiretapped, even though we've never even had so much as a hit that this is true and Kaworu could have told Shinji things elsewhere (I seriously doubt the ruins of Tokyo-3 would be full of wiretaps as well)

I seriously doubt that what I watched as 3.33 was a fairy-tale about mad genius chessmaster Gendo, who outplays his enemies with mere thinking, but without looking at chessboard. In real life, to obtain a total control over someone you must listen to him and react in advance. Gendo needed total control over Shinji simply because of what he learned in 2.22: this boy can break off the leash just like that and he will not hestitate from using the most powerful weapon in the world to destroy the last line of mankind's defence only because me mad nao. And since 3.33 is told mostly, though not always, from Shinji's point of view, there are no direct hints onscreen; there's only a question, how SDAT was repaired and why this happened out of the frame. Anyone in the room believes that Kaworu was running there his own electronics workshop?

Zusuchan wrote:You say that Kaworu knew about Gendo's plans to get rid of him, despite the fact that this would be an important plot point that as of now has not ever been so far as hinted at.

I assumed that because it solves the Kaji's patch scene in a tasty way. Kaworu is now aware that (1) he must play the role of agent, which (2) he was never trained to play, but (3) so much depends on him not screwing up, and besides (4) Lilim life is fun he never expected it to be, so (5) he learns what does it mean to fear of own death, which (6) allows him to ascend one step closer to the Lilim state of mind. And this is an important plot point.

Zusuchan wrote:You say that Shinji is Kaworu's "mortal enemy" for some reason, despite Shinji having been shown as the only person Kaworu cares about at all.

I said that Gendo is Kaworu's mortal enemy and that he listens via SDAT. Tastes spicy?

Zusuchan wrote:When he stopped 3I, what did Kaworu say? "This time, Shinji Ikari, I will show you true happiness." That was the most important thing for him.

What was the most important thing for you fourteen years ago?

Zusuchan wrote:Maybe all of what you said is true, but based on the info we have right now, all of this is just headcanon without support from the artwork.

Okay. I did the maths, I got the order, and now I can see disobedience is not worth it. And frankly, this is exactly what I wanted you to show me.

Apology accepted.

I still don't see how your points add up to what we have seen on-screen and what could be logically taken from the films. I'm sorry, but your ideas don't make sense to me at all-they seem to be you using logic to fill up a headcanon, arguing that this and that makes sense because it does, essentially. For example- Kaworu isn't clear with Shinji because Gendo listens to them through the SDAT, even though a) Kaworu could just tell Shinji not to take the SDAT with him and b) this is never hinted at in the film and you say it is because it...makes sense for you? There are no direct hints onscreen, because the overwhelming majority of the film is presented from Shinji's POV, even though Anno has shown himself a great director who's able to tell a story and give us hints even through limited viewpoints-which Q does, actually, plenty of times. Reichu has put together many masterful theories using evidence from Q, despite the fact Q is from Shinji's POV. And as I believe Anno's a great director, I also believe that he would have at least attempted to give us some hints about Gendo listening to what Shinji and Kaworu are saying, instead of forcing us to rely on "I guess this is what's happening, because it kinda makes sense." There are even a few scenes with only Gendo and Fuyutsuki, which would have featured a possibility for hints, but there were none, which to me seems to suggest that wiretapping was not a part of Gendo's plan. Kaworu knew about Gendo's plans, even though, once again, no direct proof is there in Q or even the slightest of a hint. I confess I don't recall the patch scene you're referring to, but as you said, Kaworu knowing about Gendo's plans is an important plot point, which would also mean it would have to be hinted to the audience in some manner, instead of forcing them to just "think".

I didn't understand you talked about Gendo as Kaworu's mortal enemy, which I guess I agree with in the sense they're enemies due to having different endgoals re: humanity and while I agree that fourteen years can create a large difference, the fact that Kaworu still only talks to Shinji in Q and even says "This is not the happiness you wanted-sorry" or some equivalent of that during Fourth Impact (clearly harking back to the end of Ha) suggests to me that his uttering after stopping 3I is supposed to be taken as a hint that "Yeah, this dude was already overly obsessed with Shinji way before the events of Q".

I don't understand the last line you wrote. "Disobedience"? This is a forum for discussion, different viewpoints are absolutely welcome. There's no absolutely right interpretation that must be followed or else. My line itself was just saying that I found your theories to be without support from the parts of NTE we've seen so far, whereas Reichu's are.

While it certainly makes sense that Shinji would be monitored 24/7, almost to the point where it would be dumb and short-sighted for Gendo to not be monitoring one of his Impact Triggers, it is not evidenced in the film itself. Even if heavy surveillance existed in a hypothetical sense, its complete and total absence as a tool in the film's story-telling means that it was never meant to be considered by the audience when assessing Shinji's predicament. Basically, surveillance of any kind is a non-issue to Shinji's overall emotional arc in the movie, and its presence or absence does not dictate his behaviors in the film. It is less important to the film than Shinji's bathroom breaks. (Sakura at least asks Shinji if he needs to urinate. Wiretaps aren't even given that small amount of recognition in the film.)