1. Why didn't he kill himself, instead of asking Shinji to?

2. If he was against killing humanity, why did he choose to die? Why didn't he try to help take down Seele?

1) My guess is he wasn't able to kill himself if Angels are apparently immortal in some way. (Without the Eva around I guess?) Or maybe it's a SoL thing.

2) Good question. If the Eva2 game is any indication, Shinji can talk Kaworu out of dying and he becomes a regular Eva pilot, but I'm really not sure why in the anime this possibility wasn't mentioned. Other than the fact Kaworu's death symbolizes Shinji rejecting the ideal (Kaworu and later Instrumentality) for the real (Asuka and later reality).

1) Perhaps he isn't capable of killing himself?

2) Even if Shinji had let him live, Nerv probably wouldn't. With Kaworu around, the risks would be too great to ignore.

Sailor Star Dust wrote: My guess is he wasn't able to kill himself if Angels are apparently immortal in some way. (Without the Eva around I guess?) Or maybe it's a SoL thing.

Kaworu says that he can die, but he never mentions anything about Angels being immortal.

but I'm really not sure why in the anime this possibility wasn't mentioned.

I can't be sure, but when Shinji says that Kaworu should have survived, Mistao does say that Kaworu didn't have the will to live and instead wished for death and a belief in a false hope (whatever that means.)

The Goose wrote:1. Why didn't he kill himself, instead of asking Shinji to?

Possibilities:

- "I cannot self-terminate."
- Suicide is a sin and Kaworu needs to stay out of the fiery pit.
- Kaworu is an asshole and intentionally wanted to fuck Shinji up.
- Kaworu believed (correctly or not) that his continued existence would be at our expense, and hence his death was for the benefit of humanity's future. Therefore, having Shinji kill him was a sort of weird symbolic way of putting the future in Shinji's hands. I guess.

2. If he was against killing humanity, why did he choose to die? Why didn't he try to help take down Seele?

Because Kaworu is a wishy-washy little bitch who wasn't actually 100% sure how he wanted things to end up. After the other possibilities he'd been considering were conveniently eliminated, he just dove straight into dramatic improvisation, with the result that none of what he says makes any real sense, but it makes him "look pretty damn good".

Kaworu says that he can die, but he never mentions anything about Angels being immortal.

He says "I'm destined to live forever", for whatever that's worth.

SSD wrote:If the Eva2 game is any indication, Shinji can talk Kaworu out of dying and he becomes a regular Eva pilot, but I'm really not sure why in the anime this possibility wasn't mentioned.

Where the heck would they "mention" it?

He says "I'm destined to live forever", for whatever that's worth.

True, but he immediately says afterward, "although people are annihilated as the result." Since he says this, I think the "live forever" line is what will happen to Kaworu after he starts 3I. The "people annihilated" line shows what happens to the people of Earth when 3I hits.

Because Kaworu is a wishy-washy little bitch who wasn't actually 100% sure how he wanted things to end up. After the other possibilities he'd been considering were conveniently eliminated, he just dove straight into dramatic improvisation, with the result that none of what he says makes any real sense, but it makes him "look pretty damn good".

Is the following what you said in a nutshell?: It makes him look like a "pussy-footer coward who gets to be looked upon as a Jesus Christ figure when, in reality hes more of a Judas Iscariot figure." In fact, I'm certain he just died so he could get into one of those TOP 10 ANIME DEATH LISTS.

Kaworu believed (correctly or not) that his continued existence would be at our expense, and hence his death was for the benefit of humanity's future. Therefore, having Shinji kill him was a sort of weird symbolic way of putting the future in Shinji's hands. I guess.

I think it fits in with Kaworu's line of reasoning about what his destiny is. He is an Angel and he cannot live, so Shinji, being an Eva pilot, must kill him. Thats how he sees it. He didn't see that maybe he could have lived. Mistao's comment about his believe in a false hope could be a reference to this. After all, Kaworu could have tried to communicate with NERV and help himself and the world. Suddenly, the parallels to Judas are becoming more and more clearer.

Where the heck would they "mention" it?

"By the way, Shinji-kun, I don't really HAVE to die. I just think I should because I'm an enemy to you Lilin and don't see the point in living for myself if my future's already set in stone and I mistakenly believe it's too late for me to change if I betrayed my children and caused Second Impact." (Or at least he says something about that in the game when Shinji talks to him, and I've read on a post that had Shin-Seiki as sauce that Anno actually helped write out that "Shinji has the option to save Kaworu" sequence.)

Now Adam saying "Just kidding, lets fight!" might achieve stranger results...

Reichu wrote:He says "I'm destined to live forever", for whatever that's worth.

That might mean that his soul is "unkillable", which could explain how Lilith and Adam were captured in Lilim bodies...but of course, it could mean something else

it is IMPOSSIBLE for Angels to co-exist with humans, sadly, so he had to kill himself sooner or later; and they might have stopped Shinji from trying to kill him later. It was his chance.

Reichu wrote:

2. If he was against killing humanity, why did he choose to die? Why didn't he try to help take down Seele?

Because Kaworu is a wishy-washy little bitch who wasn't actually 100% sure how he wanted things to end up. After the other possibilities he'd been considering were conveniently eliminated, he just dove straight into dramatic improvisation, with the result that none of what he says makes any real sense, but it makes him "look pretty damn good".

That's probably the best interpretation I've read in a while: It certainly explains the bonus scenes in renewal, along with Kaworu's ambiguous actions. I suppose this explains why some of his actions seemed unplanned (forcing Shinji into such a difficult in 24 position), It makes makes kaworu very human (mentally/emotionally at least.)

"By the way, Shinji-kun, I don't really HAVE to die. I just think I should because I'm an enemy to you Lilin and don't see the point in living for myself if my future's already set in stone and I mistakenly believe it's too late for me to change if I betrayed my children and caused Second Impact." (Or at least he says something about that in the game when Shinji talks to him, and I've read on a post that had Shin-Seiki as sauce that Anno actually helped write out that "Shinji has the option to save Kaworu" sequence.)

Perhaps we'll see some of that in Webuild?

V wrote:it is IMPOSSIBLE for Angels to co-exist with humans, sadly, so he had to kill himself sooner or later; and they might have stopped Shinji from trying to kill him later. It was his chance.

True, the Angels before Kaworu were too dangerous to be left alive, but Kaworu was different. He had free will and he could communicate between humans. Though, as one person said, NERV wouldn't have left Kaworu live if Shinji hadn't killed him. Still, if NERV tried to to, at least, perhaps communicate and talk with Kaworu, things may have been different. However, NERV and Seele most likely wouldn't have done that anyway since they needed control of 3I.

I suspect that his "smile of betrayal" (to quote Reichu) toward Rei might play a part in answering these questions. He might have made a backdoor pact with Rei...

(warning: fanwank ahead)

By the end of episode 24, Rei has basically figured out what she is and what she can do. From there, it wasn't too hard for her to figure out what Kaworu was, and what he planned to do. She did not like the idea of humanity being annihilated, but knew that Kaworu did not know this. So she tricked Kaworu by telling him that SEELE did not want him to merge with Adam, and was sending him on a suicide mission. She promised to tell Kaworu the "real" location of Adam on the condition that she be allowed to participate in, and thereby survive, Third Impact. When Kaworu reaches Lilith and realizes that Rei betrayed him, he gets revenge with a betrayal of his own. He's going to use her affinity for humanity against her by psychologically screwing-up the person she cares most about: Shinji.

This is not out of character for Rei. She did betray Gendo, after all...

(/wank)

V wrote:it is IMPOSSIBLE for Angels to co-exist with humans

Prove it.

...Misato said it was impossible after reading Nerv's secret files.

V wrote:...Misato said it was impossible after reading Nerv's secret files.

Sort of:

Episode 25' BB's translation wrote:Shinji, we humans were born from a being called Lilith, who is a source of life just like Adam. We are the 18th Angel.

(flashed image: DNA)

The other Angels are possibilities of what we might have become - humans that gave up human form.

(flashed image: Kaworu - Rei)

Sadly, we had to reject each other - even though we're all human...
Listen, Shinji... You must destroy all of the Eva series. It's the only
way to stay alive.

Count A'ight wrote:I suspect that his "smile of betrayal" (to quote Reichu) toward Rei might play a part in answering these questions. He might have made a backdoor pact with Rei...

(warning: fanwank ahead)

By the end of episode 24, Rei has basically figured out what she is and what she can do. From there, it wasn't too hard for her to figure out what Kaworu was, and what he planned to do. She did not like the idea of humanity being annihilated, but knew that Kaworu did not know this. So she tricked Kaworu by telling him that SEELE did not want him to merge with Adam, and was sending him on a suicide mission. She promised to tell Kaworu the "real" location of Adam on the condition that she be allowed to participate in, and thereby survive, Third Impact. When Kaworu reaches Lilith and realizes that Rei betrayed him, he gets revenge with a betrayal of his own. He's going to use her affinity for humanity against her by psychologically screwing-up the person she cares most about: Shinji.

This is not out of character for Rei. She did betray Gendo, after all...

(/wank)

Holy shit, that's even more awesome than Gendo Kaworu and Duel of the Seeds combined.

Interesting fanwank Count, but as far as the audience knows, Rei and Kaworu only have one dialogue exchange in episode 24' when they meet.

Only one spoken exchange. Let's not forget that they have TEH ANGEL TELEPATHY.

Count A'ight wrote:Only one spoken exchange. Let's not forget that they have TEH ANGEL TELEPATHY.

True, but I suppose that if they did have a exchange telepathy-wise, it wasn't very important.

The Goose wrote:True, but I suppose that if they did have a exchange telepathy-wise, it wasn't very important.

"Crap weather recently"

"See last night's game?"

"That Shinji dudes hot"

That sort of thing?