Manga Kaworu's Death - A Supreme Act of Selfishness?

[NIkkolas]

I am on Volume 13 of the NGE manga now. i bought all 13 volumes off Viz's website this month and just have to wait for Volume 14 to come out in November I guess.

In the meantime though, I must express a dislike for Manga Kaworu. Oh no, it has nothing to do with his and Shinji's interactions for the most part. Nor do I think Sadamoto was afraid of "the gay." It's entirely to do with Kaworu's death which is thrown in a whole new light.
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg216/NikKingMan/Kaworu2_zps80ebb74f.png

See, I liked the manga take on Kaworu for the most part. To me, it represented the other side of the coin we got with Anime Kaworu. My interpretation of Anime Kaworu was that it was his very alien-ness that made him and Shinji get so close. He was the one person who didn't ever "exploit" Shinji in any way. People cannot help but exploit each other - we all have selfish needs and desires we can never be free of. We may not realize it but the friends we make are just crutches fulfilling some hole we find in ourselves. Asuka, Rei, Misato, Gendo - for better or worse, they were all using Shinji to a greater or lesser extent. Kaworu though had no such trauma in his past. He had no human frailty. He just liked Shinji, plain and simple.

Manga Kaworu though shows what is positive about being human. Kaworu is completely incapable of understanding how humans think, feel or interact and that's a bad thing in this version because he thinks in coldly logical ways that a human cannot fathom. Whether it's killing the cat or mockign Rei's death, it was just him behaving in a completely inhuman way. his inhumanity is a barrier between him and Shinji as opposed to a bond. I used the word "exploit" in quotes because Shinji outright says Manga Kaworu is exploiting him just like everyone else does. A pretty intentional contrast with the anime i think.

But there is one thing he is consistent about; one thing that persists in agitating him and evoking a emotional response. That is Shinji's dislike for him. It's really more like indifference as he barely pays attention to Kaworu. He crashes at his place when he has to then leaves him like nothing ever happened when he wants to. He simply does not care about Kaworu and Kaworu is clearly upset by this. He asks several times "why don't you like me??!!"

So there comes the morbid way I interpret his death in the manga. He asked Shinji to kill him so that Shinji can no longer ignore him. This way, he will forever be in Shinji's mind and heart. Oh sure, it will be a guilt-ridden and hated memory but that's what he wants. Shinji is going to suffer forever because of him and that was his objective.

Shinji's happiness means nothing to him as opposed to the anime version. This, along with Asuka being useless, is my one serious complaint about the manga compared to the TV version.'

EDIT:

If this should go in "Everything Else Evangelion" instead of here, my apologies.

[AuraTwilight]

I can't say I disagree. I've always disliked Manga Kaworu because his entire personality is basically set up as shock value to whoever's used to the anime.

[BC Baron]

Yes, Manga Kaworu is a horrible person indeed. Look, if you want to go around killing kittens, that's your own business (and come to think of it, probably an early indication of serial killer behavior), but can it with the bullshit rationalizing. We all know you just wanted to kill cute little defenseless domesticated animals regardless of the circumstances. So stop trying to make it sound like you're doing them a favor.

However, as far as I'm concerned, anime Kaworu really ain't much better. I never bought into the whole, "I cannot self-terminate, so of course, you, Shinji, and you alone are the only one who must kill me," line of crap. What a crock. Figure out a way to make it happen, instead of forcing Shinji to do your dirty work. And while you're at it, stop claiming that you care one bit about Shinji's happiness.

[ChaddyManPrime]

^
Truer words have never been spoken about him

[Ray]

However, as far as I'm concerned, anime Kaworu really ain't much better. I never bought into the whole, "I cannot self-terminate, so of course, you, Shinji, and you alone are the only one who must kill me," line of crap. What a crock. Figure out a way to make it happen, instead of forcing Shinji to do your dirty work. And while you're at it, stop claiming that you care one bit about Shinji's happiness.

Kaworu is either the only person who really cared for Shinji unconditionally, or a selfish asshat who manipulated Shinji thinking he'd be so desperate for love he wouldn't kill him.

[robersora]

Now I realise how much I've forgotten about the Manga version. I will give the whole series a reread, as soon as I have vol.14 sitting on my shelf.
Other than that, I just wanted to let you know that I really liked your interpretation. Great job!

[NIkkolas]

Thank you. Before the manga I graciously accepted I was out of my depth in a lot of areas but the manga was a lot more...concise than the anime so I feel more comfortable expressing myself. The manga just gets to the point while the anime beats around it with needlessly convoluted and cryptic conversations (Manga SEELE are the real heroes for talking like actual people as opposed to Anime SEELE's gibberish) and othr things clearly meant to obfuscate the issue of trying to understand what's going on.

At least that's how I felt about it... The anime has a few advantages. I prefer Kaji's "you have to go back and fight" speech to Shinji in the anime because he manga he tells Shinji he has no right to be happy and that's kind of a dick move. Also Manga Asuka is useless. But I like Manga Shinji a lot and the plot is good too and Manga Gendo isn't as terrible as I was led to believe. He's very similar to the anime in fact...at least in my opinion. He's just even more of an extreme variation of "Pro-Yui, Anti-Everything Else."

But yeah, I really just wanted to post my thoughts in the "favorite version of each character?" thread but I had already posted in there a while ago and this forum absolutely does not let you double post so I was forced to create this topic.

[Literary Eagle]

For some additional insight into the manga version of Kaworu, check out this interview with Yoshiyuki Sadamoto. The first part of the interview is about the creation of Anime Kaworu, but there's stuff about Manga Kaworu after that. Here's one highlight, about the infamous kitten-killing scene:

Ah, people always complain that scene is too cruel. But I didn’t think it is cruel when I drew this scene. Kaworu’s behavior didn’t come from a boy’s peculiar cruel nature in his boyhood, he really thought that he was helping the cat. He was sincere. He felt pity for the cat, so he killed it. Of course when Shinji saw this scene, he thought Kaworu was cruel. Shinji was disbelief. In the manga, I paid special mind to Kaworu’s original character, I want to see what a more childish Kaworu would look like. So I designed this scene. Because Kaworu’s innocent and naive impression always remain in my heart.

So there you have it, straight from the man who wrote and drew the manga. Kaworu wasn't trying to be cruel, or practicing to be a serial killer. He thought he was helping. Now, I'm not saying I agree with what Kaworu did (I do not condone killing kittens!), or that it justifies what he did, but it explains why he did that. A friend of mine often points out Hanlon's razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." Although in Manga Kaworu's case, it's innocence/ignorance rather than stupidity. He was basically a confused 9-day-old baby who didn't understand anything, and to make matters worse he was receiving instruction from Seele, who told him that humanity sucks and needs Instrumentality to not suck. That doesn't mean his words and actions were okay (he did a lot of things that were inappropriate), but at least it explains why he was like that.

He met Rei, somebody who was similar to him. And through the Armisael incident, he picked up on Rei's feelings. Rei had positive feelings for Shinji because he was kind to her... that means, from Kaworu's point of view, Shinji was kind to somebody similar to Kaworu. But it seemed that Shinji wouldn't give that type of kindness to Kaworu. So then it came to an end with Kaworu asking Shinji to kill him "like the cat". Remember, Kaworu thought he was doing a merciful act for the kitten, freeing it from the cruel world that had left it to starve. Could it be, then, that Kaworu was asking Shinji to free him from this cruel world that he didn't understand, and that didn't understand him? And yes, it would also guarantee that Shinji wouldn't forget him. Again, that doesn't justify it, but it shows the tragedy of the character. Still, yes it was selfish compared to Anime Kaworu's death, because Anime Kaworu did that for the Lilin's survival. (Concerning the accusation that Anime Kaworu should have found a better way instead of making Shinji doing it... well, yes, absolutely! But the writers needed Shinji to be broken. Shinji had to kill Kaworu because the plot required it, not because of any evil intentions from Kaworu.)

[El Squibbonator]

Well, as someone with a huge soft spot for cats, that doesn't change the fact that the scene was still hard to read.

[NIkkolas]

I agree. It's also largely representative of Shinji's greatest flaw which is cowardly inaction masquerading as "kindness." It was "kind" not to attack Toji in Unit 03 but in the process he did more harm than good. he could have at least tried something to immobilize the infected unit and save his friend's life rather than just refuse to do anything. With the cat, it was the same. He was just leaving the thing to starve to death, a much more gruesome death than the one Kaworu gave the thing.

Of course both Kaworu and Shinji did the wrong thing. The right thing would have been to help the animal in some way and if he couldn't feed it, find someone who could. Misato rescued Pen-Pen so maybe she'd rescue the cat. I don't think Manga Ritsuko likes cats like her anime self or else I'd suggest her.

In the end, as hard as it was to watch the cat dying (huge animal lover here) I at least recognize the logic behind it. It was representative of how detached from humanity Kaworu was. It's just that it went too far with his death.

[pwhodges]

It was just a lost kitten. It was hugely presumptive to assume that it would not have found its way home eventually or been found by its mother in due course. Kaworu's logic was based on an unsubstantiated premiss, and I suspect that Shinji realised this, which ensured his dislike of Kaworu in that continuity.

[NIkkolas]

I believe it was Shinji who first concluded the kitten was orphaned and all alone.

[Bagheera]

But the writers needed Shinji to be broken. Shinji had to kill Kaworu because the plot required it, not because of any evil intentions from Kaworu.)

Somewhat OT, but I maintain that Kaworu made Shinji to it to deliberately break him, and that this was not an act of malice on his part. As you note, his viewpoint is very alien to ours. As you also note, Seele had him thoroughly indoctrinated such that he believed Instrumentality would be a great and wonderful thing for them. Taken together, this means that it's quite plausible that Kaworu concluded that Shinji's will must be broken so that he would accept Instrumentality, and thus be relieved of all of his burdens. He literally, truly believed that destroying Shinji in this fashion was doing him a favor.

This is the only way I can rationalize his actions during this scene. They just don't make any sense otherwise.

[Literary Eagle]

Somewhat OT, but I maintain that Kaworu made Shinji to it to deliberately break him, and that this was not an act of malice on his part. As you note, his viewpoint is very alien to ours. As you also note, Seele had him thoroughly indoctrinated such that he believed Instrumentality would be a great and wonderful thing for them.

I was talking about Manga Kaworu there. The difference is that Manga Kaworu was essentially a baby who didn't know enough about humans to understand that Seele's talk about the evils of humanity was a load of crap (and even still he decided to betray Seele in the end, although his reasons were less noble than in the anime). But with Anime Kaworu, we have someone who seemed considerably more experienced than his 9-day-old manga counterpart, and most importantly, he admired and respected the Lilin and their culture. He was a fan of the song "Ode to Joy", a song about brotherhood and friendship... by contrast, Manga Kaworu didn't even know what it was! He just happened to overhear the tune and so he played it on the piano, and he had to ask Shinji what the song was. Anime Kaworu had that song to teach him that humans and their relationships were beautiful and deserving of empathy... Manga Kaworu didn't have that advantage.

Anime Kaworu said "you are not a being who should die. Your people need the future." He wanted humanity to survive. This is also stated in the official book Evangelion Chronicle Side B, "He hopes that Shinji, his friend, will choose the survival of humanity" (my own translation of the French edition). It does not say he hopes that Shinji will lose his marbles and tell Rei that everyone should die. Now, where I think Anime Kaworu's alien viewpoint did come into play with disastrous results is that he grossly underestimated how much his death would hurt Shinji. The "Ode to Joy" contains the line "a friend loyal unto death". So if Anime Kaworu was using this song instead of Seele's bullcrap to understand humanity, then he probably thought that dying for Shinji and allowing humanity to survive would make Shinji happy. Sure, wanting humanity to survive was a very good and noble thing, but the dying part... yeah, not as great as the song made it sound. So, do I think Kaworu screwed up there? Yes, he miscalculated big time. But I don't think he was trying to break Shinji.

[Bagheera]

The problem is episode 24'. The additions made there make Kaworu's stated position impossible, since they confirm that he knew full well that Adam had survived in Gendo. That means his surprise at seeing Lilith is a sham, and casts doubt on everything else he ever said. Additionally, the meeting between him and Rei, and the rather pointed look he gives her in TD, suggest something deeper is going on.

The "Kaworu was lying his ass off, and wanted to break Shinji for his own good" theory -- aka the Casablanca theory -- is unsatisfying for any number of reasons, and even its adherents (such as myself) don't think it meshes well with what we're shown onscreen. We aren't ever really given any reason to think Kaworu is lying, or that he's being anything but earnest in his dealings with Shinji. But, be that as it may, it is also the only theory put forward to date that explains that damn lake scene. It also explains why Kaworu felt he had to have Shinji kill him, instead of just, y'know going away.

It is not a satisfactory theory, I'll be the first to admit that. But between that and "I have no idea, it doesn't make any sense" it's pretty much all we've got.

[robersora]

^
That lake-scene gets not one, but two things wrong (the number of monoliths & Kaworu knowing about the Adam-Lilith-conundrum). While it's strange that the number of monoliths is different only in this scene, it ultimately doesn't alter the plot. But the fact that they showed how Kaworu was literally fed with important information only to be surprised by "discovering" it in terminal dogma is a big deal.

Either Kaworu couldn't decipher what Seele told him as well or wasn't interested in listening anymore because his ♥ only was there for Shinji, and only behaved as if he understood to not look stupid OR (and I'm a big advocator of that theory) this whole scene was a big continuation error made by Gainax due to a big-ass brain fart. This scene was produced after the series, to explain what the hell is coalesced with Gendou's hand, inserted the lake scene and overlooked that the whole "damn, that motherfucker's not Adam, but Lily-chan!"-revelation fell flat by adding the lake-conversation.

Another thing occurred to me just now. Maybe the staff knew that this scene would contradict the climax of 24 and deliberately got the number of monoliths wrong in an attempt to show the viewers "this scene is wrong in the continuity, it's only here to info-dump".

[Literary Eagle]

I actually am a believer in the Casablanca theory, but in a different way. Well, I agree that Kaworu feigned surprise upon seeing Lilith for the sake of letting Rei know about her true nature. Considering his "You're the same as me" talk with her earlier in the episode, that makes sense. But as to why he was doing that, I don't think it was to hurt Shinji. I figured that when he said "And you are not a being who should die. Your people need the future", he wasn't just saying that to Shinji, he was saying that for Rei's benefit as well. He was basically trying to tell her "You are Lilith's vessel. It's up to you now. Protect your children!", or something like that.

So for me, the problem isn't episode 24'... the problem is End of Evangelion! After Kaworu's sacrifice, why would Rei throw that away by Tanging everyone? I like Rei a lot and I wanted to think better of her than that, so I decided that I must be missing something, and it was driving me crazy trying to figure it out. And you know what, Bagheera, I think you actually had the answer, or at least a portion of it. I'm talking about the part that got cut from your fan fic (Great fic, by the way! Please keep up the good work!), where Misato explained that the events for Impact/Instrumentality had already been set in motion, so by that point Rei was just trying to make the best out of a bad situation by putting Shinji in charge of it, instead of letting Gendo or Seele call the shots. Coincidentally, a friend of mine has suggested the reason why Giant Naked Kaworu showed up and coaxed Shinji into going along with this mess was because... Kaworu was just trying to make the best out of a bad situation by putting Shinji in charge of it, instead of letting Gendo or Seele call the shots.

I've been pondering this, and I think you folks are both right. So I propose that we combine the two ideas to look at the possibility that after Seele initiated Third Impact stuff (using the MP Evas, Unit-01, and the Spear of Longinus), Rei and Kaworu teamed up to try salvaging the situation. Or, for those who dislike the idea that Rei was powerless to stop Impact, keep in mind that a whole bunch of people, including Misato and Asuka, had gotten killed already. So maybe Rei decided to just go along with it temporarily, for the sake of giving those who had died the opportunity to come back. Either way, trying to salvage a bad situation. So Rei took the Adam embryo from Gendo, which presumably had Kaworu's soul in it by this time, entered Lilith, and appeared before Shinji as Giant Naked Rei. But Shinji freaked out, so Rei momentarily let Kaworu take the wheel ("Space Jesus, Take the Wheel"? ), to calm Shinji and put him in charge of this thing. Blah blah blah, tumbling down, tumbling down, until finally Rei and Kaworu, as representations of Hope and Love, helped Shinji to make the right decision by ending Instrumentality...

...and it worked, because we saw that Asuka was able to come back despite her gruesome death earlier in the film, which means that the others could also come back. Hoorary!

[Sailor Star Dust]

So I propose that we combine the two ideas to look at the possibility that after Seele initiated Third Impact stuff (using the MP Evas, Unit-01, and the Spear of Longinus), Rei and Kaworu teamed up to try salvaging the situation.

This is an old idea in Discussion subforum, but a lot of folks (myself included) think Eva-01/Adam/Lilith were going along with Instrumentality as a temporary situation since Third Impact was inevitable. A lot of what we see in the series + EoE, IMO, implies that Yui, and much later Rei/Kaworu, were against the idea of everybody--especially their beloved Shinji--losing their individuality (Instrumentality = suicide allegory).

___

Manga Kaworu being innocent in the sense that he didn't realize he was doing wrong might be true, but I personally still can't help but find it a fucked up action. I bet anime Shinji would have taken the kitten back to Misato's in a heartbeat (even if "simply" out of obligation/duty because he found the poor thing).

[Literary Eagle]

This is an old idea in Discussion subforum, but a lot of folks (myself included) think Eva-01/Adam/Lilith were going along with Instrumentality as a temporary situation since Third Impact was inevitable. A lot of what we see in the series + EoE, IMO, implies that Yui, and much later Rei/Kaworu, were against the idea of everybody--especially their beloved Shinji--losing their individuality (Instrumentality = suicide allegory).

That makes a lot of sense. I couldn't see Rei or Kaworu being on board with the idea of Shinji's individuality being erased, and although I find Yui a bit more mysterious, I don't think she would be on board with that either.

[Bagheera]

That makes a lot of sense. I couldn't see Rei or Kaworu being on board with the idea of Shinji's individuality being erased, and although I find Yui a bit more mysterious, I don't think she would be on board with that either.

Rei and Yui would certainly oppose it (and did), but Kaworu . . . I dunno, man. I think he just wants Shinji to be happy, and is clueless enough that he doesn't care much about the particulars. "Lose his individuality? I guess that's bad, but . . . will he be happy?" Guy's got a one track mind, y'know?