How To Characterize Shinji As An Adult?

[KingXanaduu]

That's not our fault. Garbage in, garbage out.

That, I think we can agree on.

Still, Final will have to be the verdict if it was ALL garbage.

[ElMariachi]

Sorry I know I'm going off-topic, but there's one point to reflect on that could be very useful in using in Shinji's eventual reflections of the events at the end of 2.0 :

If Shinji didn't save Rei, none of this would've happened. If he just killed the Angel, then the Impact wouldn't happen.

What Shinji needed to learn, in times of war, you need to be able to let go and keep going. Rei was dead by all accounts when Zeurel devoured her, and even when Shinji went after her, she didn't want to be saved. The mission was all that mattered. It was either Rei, or the world, and now Shinji has to pay for that. :( I know that is kind of harsh, but I'm merely stating THAT point of view. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I do acknowledge it.

Something we're overlooking is that Shinji's unwillingness to letting go Rei and his desire to save her is precisely what gave him the power to defeat Zeruel. Without that determination EVA-01 would had never entered Pseudo-evolved Mode, Shinji's fight would had ended with his deactivated Eva impaled and thrown against the rests of NERV HQ's pyramid, and assuming that Kaworu wasn't seeing the fight from orbit, he would had been too late to stop Zeruel from reaching Lilith and start the same clusterfuck that the 12th Angel apparently did some time later.

Anyway my point is that in trying to characterize Shinji as an adult who had a lot of time to reflect on what happened at the end of 2.0 (assuming people at least bothered to tell him more about the events, such that Kaworu intervened and stopped N3I), and eventually confronting people about it, is that even if it's right that Shinji has serious problems of discipline and self-control that needs to be addressed and corrected, and that they were the cause of N3I and the damages on Tokyo-3 (I'm still holding my judgment on if it also transformed everything into core material like we saw in Q) as well as N4I (which is definitively his responsibility, even if his state of near-madness can be considered attenuating circumstances), an interesting angle to explore is the possible conclusion that people shouldn't consider that there was another outcome possible in the battle, that Shinji should just had to "kill the Angel and drop it", because there weren't, without his determination to save Rei pseudo-evolving EVA-01, the only other outcome is Shinji skewered against NERV HQ with a deactivated Eva, and with the only thing left to do is crossing the fingers and pray really hard that something comes to help them. (oh yes and bash the skull of the moron who thought that not including a manual self-destruct mechanism to Central Dogma was a good idea, if he's immediately available)

Shinji learning from his reflections that N3I was the best outcome, that it sucks, but that's how life is, while still accepting that he wasn't fit to pilot an Eva with that mentality and should answer for it could be very interesting and a great sign of maturity, while avoiding to drown in the pathos of thinking that everything is his fault and that he should repent at any cost because he's the greatest sinner.


Ooooor :

He could. He could come to the realization that he has no idea who is ultimately responsible for the Impacts, beyond the fact that he was involved. This could make him more timid, more bitter, or even more philosophical. Think of an old soldier that has been misused over and over again. It may even be a mixture of all three traits: bitterness over his failures, and his abuse at the hands of superiors, hesitance at acting again, and even a sardonic acceptance or understanding of how the world works. There is security in knowing "This is the way the world is," even if that understanding is a crappy one.

It gives a sense of stability that gives confidence, however perverse that confidence is.

We could go the other way, and made Shinji come to the conclusion that "how the world works" is that it's filled with person who'll try everything they can to avoid to do the painful and unsavory actions, while blame those who do act, whether willingly or not, when they fail, and that since he ended in the role of people that act and people can never understand each other and the pain they inflict, better not to care too much about the people around him, since it's not for people who act since they tends to lose everything, and better be a übermensh and try to have your own slice of the cake, as big as possible.

And then congratulation, mankind as a whole (Gendo included) made Shinji at best someone with a truly selfish mercenary mentality, at worse a Gendo 2.0, who might even come to the conclusion that Instrumentality isn't such a bad idea seeing mankind's flaws...

[Ray]

First and foremost thank you for the comments and suggestions, I read them all. I'm attempting to make some progress on the first chapter, but its been slow going. . .

@Mariachi

In this Fic, N3I is Shinjis fault. and the planet is seriously messed up. But not ALL of the planet is core material, quite a bit of it yes. Since Japan was the epicenter, India, China, and the West coat of the US are core material. But Europe, The middle east, and most of America (including the East coast) are still relatively at the level they were pre-N3I.

Well. . .again. I was thinking the fic starts out with him as Gendo 2.0. A lonely bitter, jaded, selfish individual who hates what the worlds done to him, but has made some kind of peace with it, and has forsaken human connection. He's disconnected, seeing people as objects and not as people. Other people never cared for him and if they did it was just to use him for some selfish purpose, so why should he care about people? The point of the fic is to make him care again, and become a better person because of it. Or at least take a few steps in the right direction.

The bigger question is, how do I go about that?

@Gobhoblin

Shinji was a prisoner for a while following the events of 3.0 . But in my idea of a fic. . .leading up to the point where the story starts. He's had time to accept it, but not as a POW.

SPOILER: Show

Is he even more isolated by Wille?

Well. . . yes and no. At first, yes he is. . .the kid nearly blew up the planet again so obviously. But Misato and Asuka attempt to talk to him and open a dialogue with him. But of course he's still catatonic, and refuses to respond.

And then Aoba goes nuts and shoots him in a fit of self-righteous rage.

Misato uses this as an opportunity. Shinji survives, but Misato falsifies the reports and has a few members of her crew swear to secrecy (maybe even a few of them killed?), she has a lie circulated amongst Wille and the populace that he is dead. She then has him transferred to a settlement on the opposite side of the planet. As far as the public is concerned, Shinji died on the Wunder when Aoba shot him, and the fact he's still alive is a secret within a secret.

She decided to send him to live in Germany with Kaji, on the opposite side of the world,under an assumed identity, away from the impact center, and the Eva-series, noone in Neo-Berlin recognizes him, and on top of that Neo Berlin, while not completely stable politically, humanity is still relativley at the level of civilization it had in Neo-Tokyo (albeit far more military minded than Neo-Tokyo). Despite most of the rest of the planet getting screwed over, Germany endures.

Figured sending him away to the opposite side of the planet would be the best thing to do.

[Gob Hobblin]

To Ray: I really like the setup. That's kind of how I was thinking he would be imprisoned to begin with, as I was thinking of

SPOILER: Show

Brian Cox as Vesper Abaddon in Kings: this individual that was too dangerous to let loose, but too valuable to dispose of...but just as dangerous for anyone to know about.

Isolation of that matter would be the ideal kind of isolation to let him try to figure out what happened. He would be forbidden access to posting anything about himself, but still be able to review information, while at the same time largely isolated for human contact (save for guards).

SPOILER: Show

In fact, it might be a fun way to start that fic by introducing us to Shinji as an ancillary character, before we realize that this is Shinji. Just a suggestion.

Also...I love how you imply that Misato might SILENCE some people. It would drive home how desperate and ruthless this world has made her.

I think this could be a really fun fic.

[Oxopoha]

^I agree with Hobblin, the premise sounds really good. I'll definitely give it a read when you put it out.

[Ray]

Would an adult Shinji. . .lash out? Physically or verbally? Many people on this forum have stated. 'Shinji would never stick up for himself, he'd accept cruel treatment from others because he feels he deserves it.' I admit, seeing Shinji (at least Rebuild!Shinji) act with physical violence towards someone outside of an Angel in an Eva battle seems remarkably OOC.

So that creates an issue with two scenes I'm writing.

SPOILER: Show

I'm attempting to write two scenes in my fic. . .one a scene where Shinji gets in a fight with a bully in his Neo-Berlin High school, and the scene where he meets Misato, Asuka, and Sakura again. (after four years? I've decided on that. 18 is a good year for Shinji.) Basically, after he walks through the door to his and Kaji's apartment after another day. He finds them sitting at a table n his and Kaji's kitchenette.

The three people he wants to see least in the world. . . whether out of guilt or hatred. Just sitting at his table drinking. Waiting for him to come home to tell him to come back.

I was thinking a rebuild!AU twist on the scene in NGE where Fuyu meets Gendo for the first time. But, getting in fights like Gendo did seems horribly OOC for Shinji. Any advice?

[ElMariachi]

I was thinking a rebuild!AU twist on the scene in NGE where Fuyu meets Gendo for the first time. But, getting in fights like Gendo did seems horribly OOC for Shinji. Any advice?

I don't think it would be that OOC for Shinji, in fact, I think that it would be something very plausible for him to do after everything he has gone through in Rebuild.

Keep in mind that Rebuild!Shinji is a very cynical person, exactly like his father. It's especially prevalent in his talks with Misato :

- in 1.0 just after she saves him from Sachiel, she wonders why he doesn't asks her what the hell was the thing they just saw, to which he answers that it's not worth it, since she won't answer truthfully for something that's obviously classified

- just after Shamshell when she goes to confront him in the shower room, he asks her why she's so angry that he disobeyed her orders, since he destroyed the Angel and that in the end that's the only thing that matter to people.

- after he ran away and came back, Misato asks him in his cell if he had cooled down, to which he answers that no, but that it doesn't matter, since he'll still continue to pilot and that's the only thing they want of him

- in the hospital after nearly dying by Bardiel, when he says to Misato that it's easy for her to bark orders at him, since she's safely in the Command Room while he's the one who had to face the abomination up close.

- finally, at the beginning of 2.0 when they returns from the visit to the cemetery, he says to Misato that he only came because she insisted, and when she said that she's sure that deep down he's glad to had come to visit his mother's grave and that he should be more honest, he answers that honesty only brings problems.


That's exactly the kind of things that Gendo could say, don't you think? As for his physical behavior, before he avoided confrontation because he hated it, but after everything that happened to him, he could had basically said "fuck it" and started to get into fights as a self-destructive behavior.
I'm not saying that he'll immediately resort to physical violence for every problem and confrontation, he'll still prefer verbal assaults and witty comments, but that if pushes had to come, he'll be ready to go in a physical confrontation, as a way to hurt the people that wronged him (with a big dose of general misanthropy) and also to 'indirectly" hurt himself. Exactly like his father was heavily hinted to be during his younger days in episode 21.

Besides having him going the step further in his general cynicism and misanthropy would nicely hammer the fact that he has gotten worse and was in a downward spiral for the past four years, even with Kaji's help and emotional support. (that Shinji obstinately rejects)

[KingXanaduu]

^

The thing is about people Ray, events can change people, for better or worse. So, in regards to Shinji's character at the end of a MASSIVE traumatic, the idea of being IC and OOC are very skewed.

But in regards to your story on what you've posted so far, I've had a couple of ideas float around my head in regards to Shinji's behavior, based on the tone of your story.

Disclaimer Note: The idea I'm about to express has no regards to my current belief's and opinion about Shinji or my own moral standings. They're just ideas that I'm tossing around, and not one's I would necessarily agree with. Disclaimer End.

Basically, from what you're trying to establish in your story, I kind of see Shinji in this mentality: In his mind, he has committed the ultimate unforgivable sin, so he is damned beyond recognition....but his former "friends" still keep him alive and around, which confuses him to no end. "Why? Would they keep me alive? I have no use to them anymore. I'm just a threat....a monster....but WHY?!"

This just confuses him to no end and he can't see any other way for him to be treated but to be six-feet-under. He knows that they hate him for what he's done, but he hates this uncertainty that they're giving him. They should either hate him or not in his mind, and he's given them every right to hate him. To himself, he perceives himself as a monster, a monster out of ignorance, which is worse to him then being intentionally a monster.

And because he hates all that has transpired, he just wants it to all end....but he can't do it himself...so he decides it's better that someone else does it instead, cause it's karmatic justice to the entire world.

Thus, he wants to convince everyone around him (and himself as well) that he's a monster that doesn't deserve to exist at all costs. He becomes hostile, abrasive, malicious, and hateful to everyone he encounters, cause he wants to convince them that they honestly should kill him. He picks fights for no reason, lashes out at others, and insults everyone he meets. Even further driving the nail in, he brings up old wounds of the past, such as towards Sakura about Touji, and even going further to insult ReiQ that she's nothing but a meatsack. It's beyond excuses for what he's doing to others, but in his mind, he's nothing but a monster, and monsters deserve only to be hated....and slain................

*reads what I wrote*...........And now, if you'll excuse me, I need to watch some Futurama while eating a bucket of ice cream. *runs away*

[Ray]

I never once thought about making it THAT dark. . .Although I did have an Idea for the scene where Shinji talks to Sakura about Touji.

SPOILER: Show

Shinji:
Just stop it! Stop trying to be nice to me! I know you really hate me for what I did to Touji! What I almost did to you and everyone else! So just stop it! Stop smiling and stop lying to me! I'd rather be hated than lied to again!

Anyway. . .Jeez man. I was going there but I didn't think anyone would want it to go the whole way. I want Shinji to go from being Gendo 2.0 to being Shinji again. . .But I never thought about having to go that far.

Also, in this he's in Kajis custody. The only genuine human connection he has left. So he has someone to keep him in line.

[KingXanaduu]

Anyway. . .Jeez man. I was going there but I didn't think anyone would want it to go the whole way. I want Shinji to go from being Gendo 2.0 to being Shinji again. . .But I never thought about having to go that far.

Also, in this he's in Kajis custody. The only genuine human connection he has left. So he has someone to keep him in line.

Forgive me if I went TOO dark, but even in THAT scenerio, Shinji does still have a chance for redemption, cause it's up to Wille and the others whether or not if they ACT on his "bait". I'm sure Misato and Ritsuko has had years to understand to some degree how the mind of Shinji may work, so it basically boils down to help get him out of THAT mentality and prove that they still care for him in a genuine manner and realize his actions are just his attempt to "check out". Does Misato and Ritsuko know what Shinji knows, what he THINKS they know?

[Ray]

Basically (as I'm writing it) he thinks they just want him back so they can use him as a weapon in the final battle against Gendo. Not because they genuinely want him back because they still love him and want to reconcile with him. And to a certain extent he's right, but of course it's quite a bit more complicated than that. . .complicated even further by Rei Q's development as a character and Asuka's actions.

[/spoiler]

[Guy Nacks]

How to characterize Shinji s an adult?


Simple, watch and read all interviews with Hideaki Anno pre-1998 and extrapolate from there.

[ElMariachi]

Basically (as I'm writing it) he thinks they just want him back so they can use him as a weapon in the final battle against Gendo. Not because they genuinely want him back because they still love him and want to reconcile with him. And to a certain extent he's right, but of course it's quite a bit more complicated than that. . .complicated even further by Rei Q's development as a character and Asuka's actions.

Okay I see, your adult Shinji believes that people only needs him for something, but that no one want him.

Then in that case what you want to have is an emotionally distant Shinji, someone who just can't make an emotional connection with anyone : in the years he was in school in neo-Berlin, he didn't made any friend, didn't even tried to make one, from his point of view why bother? They only want to be his friend because he's very good at school or because he lives with Kaji (if he have an important post), but the second he starts being a burden (ie when they learn how he really is, since he lives under a false name) they'll abandon him.
He'll be constantly on his guard, always waiting for the other shoe to drop, even with Kaji, a typical exchange would be that Kaji bails him out after another fight, and tell Shinji that he should stop having such a self-destructive behavior, that he cares for him, for Shinji to retort that he only takes care of him because he was ordered/asked as a favor by Misato.

His worldview will be reinforced by Misato, Asuka and Sakura's visit : they didn't contacted him, and they visit him after four years only to draft him away into yet another war. A point that he won't hesitate to raise during their conversation. (another point : Shinji is now more overt on his cynicism, saying what he thinks instead of keeping it for himself)
Of course the situation is more complicated than that (they didn't contacted him to give him the time to rest and adapt to this new world... and also because they didn't know how to react around him or their feeling in respect to his return, so having him far away was also a guilty relief), but Shinji doesn't know that and still thinks that they need him, not that they want him.

In short he'll be like young Gendo in his cynicism and lack of faith in mankind, but without his father's mean streak and desire to hurt others, because even if he has traits inherited from him, he's not Gendo, he's still nicer and not wanting to purposefully hurt other people (the fights he picks are more as a way to indirectly hurt himself than hurt others), and also that even if he doesn't realize it, living with Kaji prevented him from completely sinking in darkness and really ends like his father.

If you want to spice things, have Asuka's legendary lack of diplomacy make her put her foot in her mouth by reacting aggressively to Shinji's retorts of why he doesn't want to have anything to do with them anymore, at which point Misato will ask her to leave them before the situation turns even sourer. Is that what you meant by "Asuka's actions"? Also, what was the reason why she tagged along Misato and Sakura to visit him? Was she ordered by Misato, or did she came from her own initiative, maybe even asked Misato to let her come, with the promise that she won't let her anger get the better of her?
But then what was her reason to come? Of course, Mari won't lose the opportunity to tease Asuka about her reason, like she did in 3.0 about Asua's reasons to go see Shinji in the interrogation room.

Of course, Shinj will think that she came because Misato ordered her to do it, and won't shy away from telling this, which will make the situation even tenser if Asuka wasn't ordered to come, but did it for her own reasons.

[Stillborn]

Okay I see, your adult Shinji believes that people only needs him for something, but that no one want him.

After Q, that's pretty much the case.

On another note Ray, I would like to add, that courtesy can be used to show disdain and detachment. For example, make Shinji call Misato and Asuka and pretty much everyone from WILLE by their rank instead of name. That in itself would be sign of respect, but in Shinji's case it would also show that he cuts off traces of familiarity he once hold with them.

[ElMariachi]

On another note Ray, I would like to add, that courtesy can be used to show disdain and detachment. For example, make Shinji call Misato and Asuka and pretty much everyone from WILLE by their rank instead of name. That in itself would be sign of respect, but in Shinji's case it would also show that he cuts off traces of familiarity he once hold with them.

That's an interesting idea, I would rather go for the rank + surname basis, like "Captain/Colonel Katsuragi", "Captain Shikinami", "Lieutenant Suzuhara", "Pilot Makinami" (or whatever her rank is)... and when told that he can call him/her Mari/Sakura/whatever, he'll answer that he prefer to keep things formal, a a semi-veiled way to show that he cut off emotional bridges with them.
Maybe Kaji is the only one he still calls by first name, since they lived together for four years, and serves as a hint that there's still a heart somewhere deep inside Shinji.

Just calling them by their rank makes him look like a robot, and he's supposed to be emotionally withdrawn, not a soulless automaton.

[Stillborn]

This is the detail I'm not adamant about, so wheter he uses rank only or rank+name is perfectly fine with me since both would convey the message I intended it to carry.

[Ray]

I already had the rough idea for "Rank + Last Name" thing to show bitterness towards Misato and Asuka for a while. . . It's Commander Katsuragi right?

Note to self. . . create thread on Rebuild forum discussing military ranks in WILLE.

[ElMariachi]

^
In our idea, he do the "Rank + Last Name" with everyone, except maybe Kaji, and if the person doesn't have a rank, settle for the Last Name, a little like Rei in 1.0 and 2.0.
Speaking of Rei, we should talk about the particular case of Rei Q : I don't think that Shinji will be able to call her Ayanami, since it's how he called "his" Rei, so maybe make him use roundabout ways to refer to her, such that "that person", "NERV's pilot", eventually "the Ayanami Type" (although "his" Rei was also an Ayanami Type, so it doesn't really work)


As for Misato's rank, that topic was already brought somewhere in the Rebuild section : when Gendo or Asuka refers to her, it's "Colonel Katsuragi" (which is also her rank while in NERV), but when everyone else refers to her, it's "Captain Katsuragi", but they use the term "Kanshou", which refers to a Captain in the naval sense, a "Ship Captain", the master of the ship.
In the military navy, the Commanding Officer of the ship is always called "Captain" by its crew members, regardless of its rank.

So the common interpretation is that Misato's official rank is Colonel, but as the Commanding Officer of the AAA Wunder, everyone in the ship (and probably the rest of the Wunder fleet) calls her Captain. So if Kaji for example has to call her by her rank and last name, it will be "Colonel Katsuragi", since he isn't part of the Wunder or its fleet, but if Midori, a crew member, has to call her, it'll be Captain Katsuragi.
Same thing for Shinji : as long as he's not enlisted back in WILLE and isn't assigned to the Wunder, he'll call her "Colonel Katsuragi", but once he officially works in the Wunder, he will have to call her "Captain Katsuragi", you could eventually add a scene where he makes that error once working in the Wunder, and have someone else correct him.

[Ray]

Is there anything else I should remember when writing/characterizing Shinji? Anything I may have forgotten?

[Lavinius]

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fu_Xi[/url]