Shikinami really isn't so bad

[chaosakita]

This is ridiculous. They're the same people. Maybe Anno screwed up on portraying Asuka this time around, but she isn't supposed to be a different person. (Read: supposed) Anno just changed his mind/wanted to do some theme naming.

[Eric Blair]

This is ridiculous. They're the same people.

Please tell me exactly how "same" they are, so I can point out their difference.

alternatively re read all of what has been posted here.

Maybe Anno screwed up on portraying Asuka this time around, but she isn't supposed to be a different person. (Read: supposed) Anno just changed his mind/wanted to do some theme naming.

Then why was Yuuko told to voice shikinami as if she were a different character?

[chaosakita]

Then why was Yuuko told to voice shikinami as if she were a different character?

All right then. That's interesting. Sauce?

But if I never concede, what will you think - "you are so stupid?" And should I care? It won't be any better or worse for me.

[Eric Blair]

All right then. That's interesting. Source?

Exactly the same part where Yuko said the name change and all other things were a SUPPA SEKURETO.

But if I never concede, what will you think - "you are so stupid?"

No, I'll simply let you to your own choice and opinion. This is what a discussion is all about; you have a point of view, I have mine; no one is told to let go of it, but sometimes, through the discussion comes out small compromises that change the original point of view.

And should I care? It won't be any better or worse for me.

Precisely my point; I am simply saying why I can't agree with what you say, I am not saying "And that is why you should not like Rebuild or shikinami."

However saying "they are essentially the same" does rub me the wrong way because if the voice actress herself was told they were different characters, then it means people are losing the main point in the narrative; the characterization.

[Bagheera]

I get that 2.0 is very clear about what kind of progress these characters are making and how that all inevitably falls apart. Asuka is set up and developed in a way that makes her fall all the more "tragic" but it feels hollow when it's (as Bardiel was used in the series) just a means of destroying Shinji's relationship with his father and not actually giving Asuka any real relevance at all. (Granted it isn't really important now because Shinji is the one they're developing) I just hope that 3.0 doesn't leave this moment hanging.

Here's what's really weird about this for me: what would have happened if Mari had been the pilot for Unit 03, and Asuka had all the scenes with Unit 02? IMO the impact on Shinji would be much the same, as he'd still feel betrayed by his father etc etc. But in the end Asuka would have been much more relevant, would have had some truly awesome scenes at the end, and would be subverting her series character to an insane degree.

I dunno, I just really dig the notion of Asuka not only stepping aside for (what she thinks is) true love, but fighting to make it happen. It would add a whole new level of awesome to her character. And I also kinda love the notion of her mastering a controlled berserker mode; that level of competence and skill is right up her alley.

Granted, this means we wouldn't get pirate Asuka in Q, but if we really wanted that we could justify it as a side effect of Unit 02's berserker state; it did take damage in the appropriate spots, after all...

I'm assuming Mari will probably be critical to the plot in Q for some reason, which is why this couldn't happen. But atm I really wish it had happened, because I think it would have been awesome.

[apocrypha]

Before anyone goes apoplectic on me and starts screaming "off topic!", bear with me. And to clarify, the topic listed is Shikinami really isn't so bad, correct?

Rebuild and its' characters are a result of the universe reset of EoE. Causality or fate has conspired to bringing about having roughly the same people in roughly the same circumstances with some significant differences. This is why Kaworu can state "I'll make you happy this time, Shinji Ikari." In this iteration, all of the characters, (even Gendo!), seem to be a bit more self aware, a bit more conscious of their flaws, and a bit more willing to change for the better. So Shikinami is more ready to admit that she is attracted to Shinji, that she does occasionally need help from others, and that she doesn't have to declare war on or belittle the people around her because they are actually not her enemies.

The original Evangelion, Director's Cuts, Death and Rebirth, and End of Evangelion were most enjoyable because of their tragedy. The characters were flawed but likable because you understood their flaws, but they were all doomed to death or misery. The characters in Rebuild all still have a chance of some happiness, and I for one have not written off Shikinami. So yeah, Shikinami really isn't so bad, and if some of you could take a scalpel and cut those Asuka Prime goggles you have surgically attached to your faces and please attempt to re-watch 1.11 and 2.22 again, I'd consider it a favor, even if you do reach the same conclusions.

[Eric Blair]

if some of you could take a scalpel and cut those Asuka Prime goggles you have surgically attached to your faces and please attempt to re-watch 1.11 and 2.22 again, I'd consider it a favor, even if you do reach the same conclusions.

Condescending tone notwithstanding, I was just about to, but I remembered my religion frowns on self-inflicted injuries especially when prompted by someone else's opinion, so yeah... ask someone else...

[UrsusArctos]

Guys, let's not go down the same path again? By the way, I hink you should see Miyamura's interview as well. Shiki isn't the regular Asuka, from the looks of things.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with her and people are entitled to have their opinions any old day - but they're not entitled to jump upon one another at the drop of a hat.

Rebuild and its' characters are a result of the universe reset of EoE.

We'll see about that in the coming films. This is a theory that has come up repeatedly thanks to the red ocean and Kaworu's dialogue- but there's no solid confirmation whatsoever.

[Kendrix]

Here's what's really weird about this for me: what would have happened if Mari had been the pilot for Unit 03, and Asuka had all the scenes with Unit 02? IMO the impact on Shinji would be much the same, as he'd still feel betrayed by his father etc etc. But in the end Asuka would have been much more relevant,.[/size]

For that to have an impact, Shinji and the Audience would have had to get to know Mari before putting her in EVA 03, which would mean even less screentime for Asuka. It would've been impossible to introduce two 'dominant' characters like Mari and Asuka at the same time.
Anno wanted ALL THREE girls to be important (see translated interviews), offing a character before giving her proper developement or even introduction doesn't make much sense.
Honestly - They wouldn't give Asuka something like beast mode, Mari is the 'agent of change', the unknown one, the one talking to the EVAs. The scene was tailored to Mari. There were early versions with Asuka in it, but no beast mode - instead, she was meant to be sitting there half unconcious/doll-like/bandaged up.

All Asuka would have done would be to lose like in ep 19. It is part of the buildup to her breakdown, but who knows if it will even occur in Rebuild?
It was not the most important part of that breakup, and neither one of Asuka's most important/most triumphant scenes.
Asuka has, as this point, already done enough sacrificing, more than anyone would have expected of her, neither those who know her TV-self and her fate, nor those who just saw her being jealous thorough the entire movie. Her going even more super heroic now would not only be too sudden, it just wouldn't say anything that the phone conversation scene didn't say.
Then, think of Mari: Her role in the final battle makes up most of her plot importance so far. At this point, Rei was Shinji's love intrest (or close friend, if you will), Asuka was a connection he formed with someone who initially didn't like him, and went through a lot of character developement... but who is Mari, before the Zeruel battle? The weird parachute girl?
Putting Mari in there just did far more for her character than it could have possibly done for Asuka: Mari forged her first proper connections here (Rei said "thank you" to her, seems like she made a good first impression, and then, there's her crucial role as Shinji's advisor. ), could establish herself as badass, do more of her 'rogue element' stuff, had a second battle (the other girls also had 2, and Shinji had 3) and spat out some of her most important, character defining lines ("Nothing Ventured, nothing gained", Misato characterising her as "someone who wants to do it alone", "If you keep feeling sorry for yourself, you'll never have any fun").
Zeruel was Shinji#s designated enemy from the start. Asuka could only lose. Mari also lost, but she claimed her place in the story.

And about that interview: It doesn't say that Shikinami is a different character, it just says that the theme naming has an in-story reason (some plot point not introduced in NGE that was considered more important/awesome than her Name staying as "Soryu"), and that Miyamura WASN'T GIVEN ANY ANSWER on whether the characters are the same or not. That's neither a yes nor a no, that's Anno

a) keeping us guessing/leaving stuff open to interpretation and
b) fearing that it may impact Miyamura's performance if he tells her, for example, that she might not portray the "going an other way/different road taken" adequately if he tells her that both Asukas are the same.
t's NO ANSWER.

[Bagheera]

Late reply is laaaaaate. But sure, why not?

For that to have an impact, Shinji and the Audience would have had to get to know Mari before putting her in EVA 03, which would mean even less screentime for Asuka. It would've been impossible to introduce two 'dominant' characters like Mari and Asuka at the same time.

Well, sure. The point of the idea is that Mari becomes a bit character and Asuka gets her screen time. The audience wouldn't need to get to know Mari because she wouldn't be an important character -- the impact on Shinji is the same either way (which we know from NGE; the identity of Unit 03's pilot was inconsequential to him, and indeed something he didn't even know until well after the fact. Rebuild!Shinji is naturally a different person, but the precedent we have in NGE tells us that Shinji doesn't have to know the pilot of Unit 03 for the impact of his father's betrayal to work).

Anno wanted ALL THREE girls to be important (see translated interviews), offing a character before giving her proper developement or even introduction doesn't make much sense.

Yes, but the point of what if? style specualtion is to look at what we, the audience want, not what Anno wants.

Honestly - They wouldn't give Asuka something like beast mode, Mari is the 'agent of change', the unknown one, the one talking to the EVAs. The scene was tailored to Mari. There were early versions with Asuka in it, but no beast mode - instead, she was meant to be sitting there half unconcious/doll-like/bandaged up.

Meh. A controlled berserker state would work perfectly for her (see EoE for an example of how it could be done).

Asuka has, as this point, already done enough sacrificing, more than anyone would have expected of her, neither those who know her TV-self and her fate, nor those who just saw her being jealous thorough the entire movie. Her going even more super heroic now would not only be too sudden, it just wouldn't say anything that the phone conversation scene didn't say.

But if she weren't the pilot of Unit 03 she wouldn't have had that phone conversation. And, frankly, the route I suggested involves her doing less sacrificing than she did in Rebuild as scripted.

Putting Mari in there just did far more for her character than it could have possibly done for Asuka: Mari forged her first proper connections here (Rei said "thank you" to her, seems like she made a good first impression, and then, there's her crucial role as Shinji's advisor. ), could establish herself as badass, do more of her 'rogue element' stuff, had a second battle (the other girls also had 2, and Shinji had 3) and spat out some of her most important, character defining lines ("Nothing Ventured, nothing gained", Misato characterising her as "someone who wants to do it alone", "If you keep feeling sorry for yourself, you'll never have any fun").

Sure. But again, the idea here is to make her a bit character and use this time to properly develop Asuka (and her relationship with Shinji). Mari is essentially written out of the show in this scenario.

Zeruel was Shinji#s designated enemy from the start. Asuka could only lose. Mari also lost, but she claimed her place in the story.

And Asuka would do the same, losing for Shinji's and Rei's sake. A heroic sacrifice instead of getting punked, basically.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

And about that interview: It doesn't say that Shikinami is a different character, it just says that the theme naming has an in-story reason (some plot point not introduced in NGE that was considered more important/awesome than her Name staying as "Soryu"), and that Miyamura WASN'T GIVEN ANY ANSWER on whether the characters are the same or not. That's neither a yes nor a no, that's Anno

Either that, or he would expect you to notice the difference in the two characters just by watching the movies.

Soryu invites newly-made friends from school to parties in NGE.
Shikinami has to be talked out of isolation within her room and pushed out to go to the aquarium.

Soryu pushes herself onto Shinji rather early on in the series.
Shikinami is hesitant to interact much with Shinji until after her second Eva/Angel battle.

Soryu holds her status as an Eva pilot as a mantle to herself and her abilities as an "adult" among her peers.
Shikinami seems to be using her skills as an Eva pilot to just go solo on missions so as not to interact much with other during missions.

It'd be just as obvious as if Anno had given Asuka a different name entirely. Oh, wait!

Soryu's name is Soryu.
Shikinami's name is Shikinami.

Soryu's name comes from a battleship that was destroyed in the heat of battle.
Shikinami's name comes from a carrier ship that was disbanded, then "resurrected" after years and years.

Soryu's name origin within context of her character development and progression within NGE has her succumbing to her battle instincts and dying upon them. (Mama was no help either.)
Shikinami's name origin within context of her character development and progression suggests that she will return after her Angel attack and over come her character flaws established in 2.22.

Yeah, the two are different characters. Anno shouldn't have to tell those in a form outside the script the elements that he had already made clear within the script. And I kinda like the different direction he seems to be going with Shikinami so far. It's not a developed as Soryu yet, but it shows promise. Even optimistic promise! (Optimism in Evangelion? What?)

That isn't to say they don't have similarities.

Red hair.
Red Eva.
Foreign girl.
Sleeps with Shinji.
Good at what she does.

It's just that everything "underneath the hood" of the character was completely changed. Same body but different engine, if you will. And depending on who you talk to, what's "under the hood" is the most important element when it comes to both cars and characters.

[Eric Blair]

Same body but different engine, if you will. And depending on who you talk to, what's "under the hood" is the most important element when it comes to both cars and characters.

Going down the automotive route; Asuka Soryu is a V-8 engine; this means more gas, more money thrown for proper maintenance, but much more power, while Asuka Shikinami seems to barely reach V-6 status (I'd even categorize her as a V-4); she probably offers better mileage for those budget conscious, but for the people who love to ride, there's nothing like a V-8.

[Warren Peace]

Shikinami is Soryu if Soryu wasn't a sociopath. That's it. Shikinami's capacity for caring about other people is what separates the two. Soryu can only filter others through her own narcissism. You'd never see Soryu have a conversation like Shikinami does with Misato before the activation test, because Soryu doesn't give a shit about Misato (or anyone else). Soryu sees others as instruments in achieving her own goals and happiness. Shikinami at least seems to recognize them as people.

[Eric Blair]

You'd never see Soryu have a conversation like Shikinami does with Misato before the activation test, because Soryu doesn't give a shit about Misato (or anyone else).

I dunno, the conversation Soryu had with Hikari before Toji got Bardiel'ed seemed to be NOT about her, but about Hikari, which kind of trumps your "Soryu doesn't give a shit about Misato (or anyone else)" theory.

[Warren Peace]

I dunno, the conversation Soryu had with Hikari before Toji got Bardiel'ed seemed to be NOT about her, but about Hikari, which kind of trumps your "Soryu doesn't give a shit about Misato (or anyone else)" theory.

I don't think a single scene of her showing the slightest passing interest in someone else invalidates her solipsism. I mean, that you had to use a minor scene with Hikari to prove she's not a sociopath says something. Mostly, Soryu's relationship with Hikari is about Soryu as much as everything else.

[Mr. Tines]

Well, sure. The point of the idea is that Mari becomes a bit character and Asuka gets her screen time.... Mari is essentially written out of the show in this scenario.

That aligns with a lot of the pre 2.0 speculation -- Mari would be a disposable merchandising opportunity, and, implicitly, Asuka would be much like before.

As it turned out, neither are true.

[Bagheera]

Shikinami is Soryu if Soryu wasn't a sociopath. That's it. Shikinami's capacity for caring about other people is what separates the two. Soryu can only filter others through her own narcissism. You'd never see Soryu have a conversation like Shikinami does with Misato before the activation test, because Soryu doesn't give a shit about Misato (or anyone else). Soryu sees others as instruments in achieving her own goals and happiness. Shikinami at least seems to recognize them as people.

Soryu is not a sociopath. This is a matter of definition, not opinion; the terms means something, and Soryu just doesn't qualify. This doesn't mean you're obliged to like the character, of course, but if you pay attention to the latter half of the series it's clear that she's not acting with the motivations you ascribe to her above.

Past that, Shikinami isn't just Soryu without the rough edges; she's a different person, and is damaged in different ways (FFF4 gives a nice list above).

That aligns with a lot of the pre 2.0 speculation -- Mari would be a disposable merchandising opportunity, and, implicitly, Asuka would be much like before.

I was kinda hoping she'd be quite different, actually; making a sacrifice play for Shinji and Rei's sake is hardly something Soryu would do! But she'd definitely have the same prominence as she had before.

As it turned out, neither are true.

True. Pity IMO, but we're only halfway done yet.

[Warren Peace]

Soryu is not a sociopath. This is a matter of definition, not opinion; the terms means something, and Soryu just doesn't qualify. This doesn't mean you're obliged to like the character, of course, but if you pay attention to the latter half of the series it's clear that she's not acting with the motivations you ascribe to her above.

Why doesn't it qualify? How is she not acting with the motivations I ascribe to her?

It's not about liking or disliking the character. Soryu is one of the greatest characters in all of anime, the fact that she's a sociopath accounts for a lot of that. I'm glad that Rebuild has tweaked that aspect of her personality, not because I dislike what they did with her in the series, but because I hope it means they're abandoning the mental breakdown arc (cliff?). Again, I loved that stuff, but any attempt to recreate it would be a bad idea. By abandoning the most destructive aspects of Soryu's personality, they have a chance to take the character in a different direction. What NGE did with Asuka is great, but Rebuild needs to forge new ground.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Going down the automotive route; Asuka Soryu is a V-8 engine; this means more gas, more money thrown for proper maintenance, but much more power, while Asuka Shikinami seems to barely reach V-6 status (I'd even categorize her as a V-4); she probably offers better mileage for those budget conscious, but for the people who love to ride, there's nothing like a V-8.

Well, that all depends on 3.0. I didn't feel that Soryu was much the "ride" either until episode 22. (And, boy what a ride that was!) That's when she became a very detailed and well crafted character study into what at first only appeared to be a simple trope. Then on the re-watch, one can see how most of it was all building up to that anyway.

[Bagheera]

Why doesn't it qualify?

A sociopath is someone with no moral sense who doesn't know how to interact with society. Being a bitch or an asshole doesn't cut it -- it's a specific sort of psychological damage. Asuka doesn't have this. She interacts just fine with Hikari, Kaji, and many others throughout the series. She understands right and wrong, knows how to talk to people (when she feels like it), and functions pretty much like any other human being in mundane social situations. She is damaged and angry and self-absorbed, not sociopathic.

By abandoning the most destructive aspects of Soryu's narcissism, they have a chance to take the character in a different direction. What NGE did with Asuka is great, but Rebuild needs to forge new ground.

That's true. I'm just noting that your characterization of Soryu as a sociopath is factually inaccurate since the word doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. Even her narcissism is a bit of a fakeout given her underlying issues (it's more of a symptom than a core character trait IMO, but there's room for semantic differences of opinion there).