Is it reasonable to believe that people would blame Shinji for 3I?

[Zoop]

About legality, you two are right for the most part. Law don't seem to matter much when mankind is on the brink of extinction.
Only personal moral opinions, like Misato protesting the dummy plug, preferring to put fate in the hands of children like Shinji, which Kaji then makes a remark about (because we do know how skewed that is).
Just a general feel of what is "right", and of course, they don't always get that correctly.

When Nerv is "requested" to deploy their eva's (I think with Shamshel?), the retort is "we were going to do that anyway". Nerv seems to be operating at the (almost) highest level, no laws seem to be holding them down. This is why the time skip period could be so interesting as it should cover some legal repercussions for the cast.

There is just one exception to this "lawlessness, but driven by objective morality"-theme and thats the Vatican treaty prohibiting a country from having more than 3 active eva's. Always thought that was a bit out of place. I mean, theres literal children piloting demigod cyborgs, but oh no, now all of the sudden there are actual laws and regulations about this?
The wiki raises an interesting point, that this might have been done to prevent 4 active eva's at the same time in order to avoid a 2nd impact situation with 4 active adams.
And in that way, it would fit that there ARE suddenly laws about the usage of eva's.

In any case, bringing it all back on topic, anyone who would blame Shinji for anything is just insane. An eva is an instrument of mass destruction / extinction / something on the level of a god etc. And then they put an emotionally unstable boy in it, close to forcing him to. It's not like he got proper training or guidance or support outside the eva. He only gets sync tests and target practice (at least Asuka can use some acrobatics from irl in her eva, what kind of fighting experience does Shinji have? Just shove em in the robot, point him at the enemy, and hope for the best?). Nobody really cares about his wellbeing or state of mind.

But then point fingers when shit hits the fan?
Thats just shortsightedness and one of the most unbelievable and annoying plotpoints of rebuild, imo.
Shinji deserved none of the treatment he got. The explosives and the choker, I can get, those are insurances. But explain something to the boy already, ffs.

[Konja7]

In any case, bringing it all back on topic, anyone who would blame Shinji for anything is just insane. An eva is an instrument of mass destruction / extinction / something on the level of a god etc. And then they put an emotionally unstable boy in it, close to forcing him to. It's not like he got proper training or guidance or support outside the eva. He only gets sync tests and target practice (at least Asuka can use some acrobatics from irl in her eva, what kind of fighting experience does Shinji have? Just shove em in the robot, point him at the enemy, and hope for the best?). Nobody really cares about his wellbeing or state of mind.

But then point fingers when shit hits the fan?
Thats just shortsightedness and one of the most unbelievable and annoying plotpoints of rebuild, imo.
Shinji deserved none of the treatment he got. The explosives and the choker, I can get, those are insurances. But explain something to the boy already, ffs.

To be fair, if they don't care that Shinji doesn't have experience or emotional stability when they put him to pilot the Eva, it has a lot of sense they will blame Shinji too.

After all, they don't care about Shinji's emotional state or age to pilot the Eva (they're just happy that he destroys the Angels). So, they won't care about Shinji's emotional state or age when he caused the N3I either.

[Zoop]

Correct, but the title of the post asks if thats reasonable, my answer: No, of course it's not.
Eva is full of dysfunctional people.

[EvaChero]

Correct, but the title of the post asks if thats reasonable, my answer: No, of course it's not.
Eva is full of dysfunctional people.

and that's why we love it after all isn't it?

[nerv bae]

But, in this line of dialogue, he rejects these stakes as his motivation. We learn that he doesn't care about the world, or his own health. He just wants to save Rei.

But is that itself digestible as a character motivation based on what we've seen?

It's growth in a way, as Shinjij has historically been a self-involved character who has difficulty seeing the bigger picture in terms of duty and sacrifice when held against personal harm and discomfort. But in a way it's still selfish, and it's really just roping in a secondary person; an island of two mindset, screw the rest of civilization. As I understand it, Shinji is supposed to be thematically mirroring his father: Gendo is obsessively chasing after his deceased partner to the undoing of everyone else's personhood, and here Shinji is obsessively attempting to rescue someone who is, genetically, that some woman, and Shinji is, genetically, a derivation of Gendo, and the situation is at the expense of everyone else as well. The difference is knowledge and intent.

Yet (said rewatch notwithstanding) I'm not convinced by why Shinji snaps here and why he suddenly wants to rope Rei in so badly as an honorary "us against everyone else" kind of thing. Perhaps he's so burdened by the confines of what should be his motivation that this substitute is more viscerally and personally rewarding. But I just can't follow from A to B, similar to how Shinji's sudden wisdom and maturity feels like it's skipping a few steps (montages not sufficient, imo) in Thrice. I get it that, conceptually, Shinji desperately saving Rei must be informed by the recent failure to save Asuka, but I feel like the psychological passage between these two events is abrupt. ...

I've rewatched 1.11 and 2.22 and I think I could string together a linear script-based "yes, of course" response to your first question "But is that itself digestible as a character motivation based on what we've seen?" But we usually come at topics from different directions (which is what keeps this fun) and so I want to better understand the rest of your post -- regarding "I just can't follow from A to B," I think B for you are Shinji's actions at the end of 2.22. But for you, what's A? What is your starting point such that you can't follow to Shinji's actions at the end of 2.22? Is it everything that came before, or something more specific?

That's a fair exercise. But, I don't think playing with those hypotheticals should distract from the more significant point I'm trying to make, which is that in the west faultless people are still blameworthy if they cause enough mayhem. I haven't seen this point made at all in the conversations about N3I and 3I, (I know, I know, I'm very new here so I may have missed an old conversation about this) so I think it's important to get it out there.

... Are you a legal expert? I'm not being ironic or cutting here, I'm asking because I think it would be interesting to get an informed opinion on it (I definitely don't have one). But surely, even though much has to be made about Shinji's lack of intent, the massive contravening factor that there is known, unambiguous intent on the part of someone manipulating the events in question would be significant in the consideration of Shinji's case, right? What's more, the fact that Shinji is a subordinate to quite a few people, which would introduce its own complex legal angle; for instance, the legal terrain of war crimes.

I'm not an expert on strict liability; per your proposal I'll assume that there is an exception to the doctrine's applicability in case of known, unambiguous intentional manipulation by someone else. After all, it seems like for every rule in the law there is an exception!

Here we're talking about Gendo manipulating Shinji and Rei closer together in 1.11 and 2.22 to promote the awakening of Unit 01, right? But, dumb question: is it established that his manipulation was known to anyone besides Fuyutsuki? Viewing the beginning of N3I in 2.22, Kaji recites to himself:

Triggering Unit-01's awakening before the rest are present...
Commander Ikari, Seele won't keep quiet about this.

Is this adequate to establish that everyone in Wille shouldn't have blamed Shinji for N3I, because they all knew (via Kaji) about Gendo's manipulation? Or is Kaji's statement vague enough that we can't use it to impute that knowledge to him? I can't think of anything else pointing this way in 1.11 or 2.22. Will rewatch the rest this week.

[Konja7]

Triggering Unit-01's awakening before the rest are present...
Commander Ikari, Seele won't keep quiet about this.

Is this adequate to establish that everyone in Wille shouldn't have blamed Shinji for N3I, because they all knew (via Kaji) about Gendo's manipulation? Or is Kaji's statement vague enough that we can't use it to impute that knowledge to him? I can't think of anything else pointing this way in 1.11 or 2.22. Will rewatch the rest this week.

I'm pretty sure that WILLE knows Gendo manipulated the events. Just the fact that Gendo ran away after N3I would put him in a very suspicious situation.

Although WILLE knew Gendo manipulated everything, this wouldn't make them less angry with Shinji for starting the N3I (they are likely angry with Gendo too, but he isn't close enough to suffer their rage). After all, Gendo could manipulate the events, but he doesn't force Shinji in this case.

[Zoop]

And lest not forgot that Gendo is Sjinji's actual father. Sure, you shouldn't blame a child for his fathers actions, but I definitely think this has weight too.
Perhaps this familial connection is even stronger in Japanese culture? Holding a grudge towards ones children for their actions, I mean.

[nerv bae]

Is this adequate to establish that everyone in Wille shouldn't have blamed Shinji for N3I, because they all knew (via Kaji) about Gendo's manipulation? Or is Kaji's statement vague enough that we can't use it to impute that knowledge to him? I can't think of anything else pointing this way in 1.11 or 2.22. Will rewatch the rest this week.

I'm pretty sure that WILLE knows Gendo manipulated the events. Just the fact that Gendo ran away after N3I would put him in a very suspicious situation.

Although WILLE knew Gendo manipulated everything, this wouldn't make them less angry with Shinji for starting the N3I (they are likely angry with Gendo too, but he isn't close enough to suffer their rage). After all, Gendo could manipulate the events, but he doesn't force Shinji in this case.

I agree with you that WILLE knows Gendo manipulated events. Everyone generally understands that he's an evil schemer. But in this narrow hypothetical we're playing with, in which faultless actors are still blameworthy if they cause enough mayhem (call it "the nerv bae rule") unless another is known to have unambigiously, intentionally intervened to cause the mayhem (call it "the Axx°N N. exception"), I don't think we can rely on WILLE's general understanding of Gendo's behavior. I think for the Axx°N N. exception to apply, in order to absolve Shinji of blameworthiness under the nerv bae rule we need to use specific behavior by Gendo that's directly related to Shinji's choice to save Rei. I propose that specific behavior is Gendo manipulating Shinji and Rei closer together in 1.11 and 2.22 to promote the awakening of Unit 01. And the Axx°N N. exception can't apply unless WILLE knows Gendo did that!

[Blockio]

An interesting thing about that is that there are a couple of things kind of implying that in between N3I and 3I proper, there was a fair amount of political turmoil withinNerv; see Commander Nagisa, whatever Kaji was doing and a few other little things kinda hinting at a much larger bigger picture during the timeskip than generally assumed

[Cola-09]

An interesting thing about that is that there are a couple of things kind of implying that in between N3I and 3I proper, there was a fair amount of political turmoil withinNerv; see Commander Nagisa, whatever Kaji was doing and a few other little things kinda hinting at a much larger bigger picture during the timeskip than generally assumed

What I don't understand is why Kaworu went back to neo-NERV and joined Gendo and Fuyutsuki? Did he anticipate that if Shinji would rematerialize he would immediately seek Rei and therefore head to NERV?

@Topic:
I see it this way:
1. Shinji was both involved in N3I and 3I proper
2. They are more pissed off because of 3I proper than N3I (I believe the crews relatives died to the actual impact, not the one from 2.0)
3. They also treat him with a lot of caution and skepticism because in NTE an Awakening is key for an impact and Shinji is capable of doing it

[nerv bae]

2. They are more pissed off because of 3I proper than N3I (I believe the crews relatives died to the actual impact, not the one from 2.0)

Konja7 points out above that N3I was deadly for those relatives:

Were they NERV employees that died during N3I or something? I was under the impression they died during 3I like everyone else, and that she was just generically blaming Shinji for it.

Midori mentioned that her family was killed in the N3I. Sakura also mentioned that her father died in the N3I protecting her family.

Aside from N3I being trigger for the Third Impact, the N3I seems to have been a destructive event by itself (for people in Tokyo-3 at least)

Kensuke and Touji seem to have worst memories from the N3I than the Third Impact. This has certain sense, since they should have been protected during the Third Impact (or they wouldn't be alive).

Further to this question I've been chewing on:

Here we're talking about Gendo manipulating Shinji and Rei closer together in 1.11 and 2.22 to promote the awakening of Unit 01, right? But, dumb question: is it established that his manipulation was known to anyone besides Fuyutsuki?

In 1.11 did Gendo conspire with Ritsuko to task Shinji with giving Rei her new ID card? Ritsuko seemingly-innocently gave new IDs for both children to Misato at the bar, but this could have actually been subterfuge. If so, then Ritsuko knew about Gendo manipulating Shinji and Rei closer together, and if Ritsuko knew WILLE knew ... unless Ritsuko was smart enough to keep it to herself after N3I.

[Cola-09]

Midori mentioned that her family was killed in the N3I. Sakura also mentioned that her father died in the N3I protecting her family.

Oh, I must've overlooked this then. However, this then even strengthens the blaming perspective, no? At least as for the crew. Misato might've been frustrated because of him also being involved in the 3I proper, where she lost Kaji.

In 1.11 did Gendo conspire with Ritsuko to task Shinji with giving Rei her new ID card? Ritsuko seemingly-innocently gave new IDs for both children to Misato at the bar, but this could have actually been subterfuge. If so, then Ritsuko knew about Gendo manipulating Shinji and Rei closer together, and if Ritsuko knew WILLE knew ... unless Ritsuko was smart enough to keep it to herself after N3I.

I know this is NGE stuff but wasn't Ritsuko the head of the Marduk institute back then, working closely with Gendo? She also had feelings for him in the original lore. The question is how applicable this relationship is in NTE?

[Archer]

I feel like Ritsuko is barely a character in the Rebuilds. If there’s any relationship between her and Gendo, it’s only barely implied, certainly not a major plot point like it is in NGE.

[Gendo's Glasses]

Just because someone puts a gun in your hands (Gendo), and just because your superior officer is cheering you on (Misato), you're still responsible -- even if not in a legal or lawful sense -- if you pull the trigger, perhaps especially so if you do it while screaming you don't care what'll happen to anyone else in the process. That's not to say that Shinji is to blame for Third Impact, but I think Shinji spends his time refusing to accept responsibility for pulling the trigger, so to speak.

[The18°angel]

Just because someone puts a gun in your hands (Gendo), and just because your superior officer is cheering you on (Misato), you're still responsible -- even if not in a legal or lawful sense -- if you pull the trigger, perhaps especially so if you do it while screaming you don't care what'll happen to anyone else in the process. That's not to say that Shinji is to blame for Third Impact, but I think Shinji spends his time refusing to accept responsibility for pulling the trigger, so to speak.

the problem is that pressing the trigger wasn't supposed to do that with the gun, because as far as everyone knew except for gendo the evas couldn't cause impacts on their own and the especific and the specific situation necessary for that to happen requires that the eva absorb an angel, apparently with Rei's soul, that the pilot is under a lot of emotional stress and that there is no other functional eva left in battle. we must also remember the battle against the 8th angel where unit 01 moved at supersonic speed because Shinji forced the eva to do it, even from that point and thanks to the information we have we already know that he was basically at risk of awaking the eva because the only other occasion where evas and its pilots replicated something similar was mari and Asuka 14 years later in 3.0+1.0, where their evas had all capacity limiters removed for the battle where mari and Asuka both awaken their evas in combat... But Mari and Asuka new the risks and has 14 years of combat experience and possibly training for that moment and where informed of their evas true capabilities.

there is responsibility yes but they are diminished by external factors that if the message is to see Shinji as an immature brat who causes death and destruction because he runs away from responsibility, then how are we supposed to see the people around him? like vicious sociopaths who only care about feeling good about themselves? The whole scene where they put the collar on him and the whole disaster that followed could have been solved if they told him that the collar was a standard measure for pilots instead of telling him that it was his "punishment and symbol of mistrust of WILLE".
and if Shinji still decided to run away because Rei was there then it would be because he is still a brat and not because wille threatened him with a bomb necklace in addition to seeing Rei.

it is as if Shinji had been given the launch codes of several missiles and told that they were ordinary missiles but when the time came and he used them all it turned out that the missiles had nuclear warheads and caused the end of the world.

[Leonaxzz]

We speak about Shinji, but Asuka and Mari (who are totally innocent) receive a similar treatment from WILLE. I guess WILLE crew aren't so cold towards Asuka and Mari, but there is clearly a huge mistrust (even after 14 years working together).

The DSS Choket could be understandable to some extent, since Asuka can unleash something very dangerous with the Angel blood. However, the bombs in their room are totally excessive (not to mention that they increased the number of bombs due to Shinji's actions in 3.0).

Honestly, after seeing the treatment Asuka and Mari received from WILLE, the treatment to Shinji isn't surprising at all.

I think the problem is that WILLE's reaction is inconsistent.
I agree that their treatment to Shinji isn't surprising BEFORE Shinji is back to WILLE.
But since Shinji returned to ship in 3.0+1.0, the attitude of Misato and others suddenly has a 180-degree change.

As you said, there is clearly a huge mistrust of Asuka and Mari from WILLE crew. The way they treat their most loyal warriors and 14-year-long comrades is to increase the number of bombs. Asuka and Mari must still wear the DSS Choker 24/7 even when not piloting EVA.

However, on the other hand, Misato permitted Shinji not to wear the DSS Choker after his actions in 3.0, and WILLE crew also accept her decision even after witnessing Shinji triggering 4th Impact.
And Misato even planned to let Shinji just stay in the village and she didn't consider putting another DSS Choker around his neck before Shinji asked to go back to WILLE.

[Konja7]

The whole scene where they put the collar on him and the whole disaster that followed could have been solved if they told him that the collar was a standard measure for pilots instead of telling him that it was his "punishment and symbol of mistrust of WILLE".
and if Shinji still decided to run away because Rei was there then it would be because he is still a brat and not because wille threatened him with a bomb necklace in addition to seeing Rei.

In Shinji's case, the DSS Choker wasn't a standard measure for a pilot. Remember that WILLE doesn't plant to allow Shinji to pilot the Eva again.

The DSS Choker was really a punishment and a symbol of mistrust of WILLE. After all, the plan was to kill Shinji if he tries to pilot the Eva again or run away with Rei. WILLE crew didn't expect that Misato wouldn't be able to activate the bomb.

However, on the other hand, Misato permitted Shinji not to wear the DSS Choker after his actions in 3.0, and WILLE crew also accept her decision even after witnessing Shinji triggering 4th Impact.
And Misato even planned to let Shinji just stay in the village and she didn't consider putting another DSS Choker around his neck before Shinji asked to go back to WILLE.

In my opinion, Misato's behaviour makes a lot of sense. The events of 3.0 (where she wasn't able to activate the bomb) make her confront her real feelings towards Shinji. That's why she is so nice with him in 3.0+1.0.

There should be members of WILLE (like Midori) who aren't happy about Misato's good treatment towards Shinji in 3.0+1.0, but most of WILLE crew seem to want to trust Misato's judgement.

[Blockio]

In Shinji's case, the DSS Choker wasn't a standard measure for a pilot. Remember that WILLE doesn't plant to allow Shinji to pilot the Eva again.

The DSS Choker was really a punishment and a symbol of mistrust of WILLE. After all, the plan was to kill Shinji if he tries to pilot the Eva again or run away with Rei. WILLE crew didn't expect that Misato wouldn't be able to activate the bomb.

I mean, Asuka and Mari are wearing one as well and he got the choker back explicitly for the sake of and in mutual agreement about piloting 01 again, so I really don't know where you got that from.

[Konja7]

I mean, Asuka and Mari are wearing one as well and he got the choker back explicitly for the sake of and in mutual agreement about piloting 01 again, so I really don't know where you got that from.

I wasn't speaking about 3.0+1.0. I was speaking about 3.0.

In 3.0, Ritsuko puts the DSS Choker in Shinji, but they don't plan to let him pilot the Eva. I mean, they don't even think it's possible Shinji could pilot Eva-01, since they believe Shinji's synchronicity with Eva-01 is zero.

So, the DSS Choker for Shinji in 3.0 is really a punishment and a symbol of mistrust of WILLE.

[Blockio]

Yeah, but that scene can't be properly interpreted without considering the context from Shin. Even ignoring the scene of him getting the choker again, the fact remains that Asuka and Mari were also wearing one, so it is not targeted against him as much as Eva pilots in general