Is it reasonable to believe that people would blame Shinji for 3I?

[Szmitten]

Speaking as someone who has been wanting to make an Evangelion 2.5 fanwork, I'm in a weird position of knowing as much as I can about this period while also allowing my headspace to stew in it, and I think it's worth restating and untangling some ideas here:

-"Why is everybody being mean to Shinji?" is an almost memetic statement that is derived almost entirely from Shinji being the POV character. In Memento, Leonard is the POV character, and you feel for him and hate how he's being manipulated; when you watch the chronological cut you realise he's an insufferable idiot. It's much the same with Shinji: he doesn't understand the new world he's in, yet consistently insists that he knows better than anyone. Also most characters are seemingly neutral or wary of him, not outright hatred; the only outright negative characters are: Misato (a character not only present at every Impact but has also lost a male figure in her life at (nearly) each one), Asuka (can't stand him for reasons entirely unrelated to any Impacts), a few crew members (for reasons in the next point) and a statement from Kaworu regarding humanity as a whole (see also the next point).

-Shinji is absolutely 100% directly responsible for killing people during Near Third Impact. The cross where the Geofront unpeels intersects the entirety of Tokyo-3 to the extent that it has to be abondoned. Even with the evacuations we see during the 10th Angel attack, they only went deeper into the Geofront, and while even a majority probably survived we know for a fact that named character's parents died. This is all moot because subsequently, with Third Impact proper, humanity as a whole is gone with the exception of a few thousand we see in the Village(s?), Wunder, and Nerv HQ.

-Timing. Between bones healing, trimesters, and character ages and the differences between "13 years" and "14 years", N3I and 3I occur between 3-9 months of each other, I personally am more comfortable with saying 6 months. In 6 months you have Gendo and Fuyutsuki's flight, Kaworu and Kaji's promotion, Wille's founding, an 11th Angel battle, Kaji Jr's conception, the insurrection, and any other business. Failures of Infinity suspiciously having the appearance of Eva-01, and Lilith forming Rei's face after being seperated from her body, are both weird things that make discounting Eva-01's involvement in Third Impact difficult, but with nothing to go on, and certainly no indication of reactivation or intent, we can only either write it off or assume Eva-01 was simply used as a tool to continue/restart N3I. Keep in mind also that this 6 months isn't a cosy business as normal affair, Nerv has to continue to operate to deal with Angels while personnel are confined and restricted while the command centre is destroyed (you forget about this because the TV series reused assets for a second command center underneath the old one), Tokyo-3 citizens have to take refuge somewhere, Seele has to get tighter military control of Nerv while Kaworu and Kaji pretend to go along with it while simultaneously protecting everyone from the bulk of it eg NGE Ritsuko interrogations.

-Shinji's actions created the conditions for Third Impact by starting it, forcing it to be paused, removing/introducing Eva's and Spears into play, and creating the environment for Seele to accelerate its plans. I know this is very boring and people don't think it justifies Shinji's treatment but think of it this way: In September 2019 a kid has a pet bat, it's sick and he gives it CPR; after giving it CPR, he himself gets very sick and falls into a coma for two years; when he wakes up he finds out that he was patient zero of Covid-19, and everyone hates him for unleashing it on the world; but why are people mad at him? He did something noble saving an animal he loved (which is now gone) and he didn't spread it or go on a plane himself, it's not his fault. It's irrelevant, you're mad at him for opening pandora's box. Now imagine instead of a disease it's 7 billion dead and the total toxification of the earth. To me, the Villagers not caring or forgiving Shinji so easily (if they even know) is the more profound (and sweeter) notion here.

We feel like Shinji is being victimised because he is the POV character, but he made a mistake, one that he didn't have much choice about avoiding, but he made it and doubled down on it later. Narratively, the purpose was the show this fallibility and to show him grow beyond it and try to fix it. The technical aspects of splitting the Impact are a little hokey because of the unintended missing-episode/course-correct aspect to it all, but it serves its purpose to that end.

[Konja7]

To me, the Villagers not caring or forgiving Shinji so easily (if they even know) is the more profound (and sweeter) notion here.

I think people in Village-3 don't know Shinji's identiy. Touji and Kensuke seem to have presented Shinji and Rei as refugees found by Kensuke.

Hikar's father seems to know who Shinji is, but the situation seems to be tense. Kensuke feels it's better that Shinji stays in his house.

[Blockio]

re:Szmitten
^all of this
Very important points. NTE, especially Q, plays with audience perception a lot. Shinji is neither poor innocent puppy boy being bullied by everyone, nor is he the malicious demon lord some people claim everyone at Wille makes him out to be: He is simply a self-absorbed idiot who can't admit that he fucked up and would rather blame the world for it at least until Shin slaps some sense into him throughout the village scene.

[Archer]

Maybe that’s the view the story intends to get across, but I still think it just doesn’t work. As far as I’m concerned, the fact that he could not have reasonably understood the ramifications of his actions, and the fact that his superior immediate superior was literally cheering him on as he did it, combined with the fact that he is at worst only indirectly responsible for Gendo actually starting 3I months later, basically absolves him of blame*. Not to mention, in 3.0 it’s not like WILLE is explaining things to him calmly like responsible adults and he’s throwing a childish temper tantrum refusing to believe he’s done anything wrong - if anything, they’re the ones acting childish, bringing him up to the bridge for no reason other than to berate him and then acting surprised when he willingly runs off with Rei when they have given him no reason to believe what they’re saying. If the series’ intent was for me to come back to the beginning of 3.0 after having watched the last movie and see it in a new light of Shinji acting immaturely by refusing to listen to the adults, then it’s failed spectacularly, because it’s only reinforced my belief that Shinji literally did nothing wrong.

Like, the way Shinji is portrayed in 3.0 and 3.0+1.0 makes it feel like the characters aren’t written as if they’re reacting to what he did in 2.0, but to his actions in End of Evangelion. The problem is, what Shinji did in EoE was like, orders of magnitudes worse than the ending of 2.0. There, he was not only directly responsible for pulling the trigger, but was also fully aware of the consequences yet decided to do it anyways, literally saying verbatim “everyone should just die”. It also gives Asuka a stronger reason for hating him, rather than the honestly kinda generic “I’m mad at you because you couldn’t make up your mind to save me or to let me die”, which if you squint a little reads a little too much like the classic romcom conflict of “I’m mad at you because you couldn’t make up your mind between me or Rei”.

Chalk it up to cultural differences or whatever, we wouldn’t even need to be having this debate at all if some minor and otherwise irrelevant details were changed to make it completely unambiguous that Shinji is, in fact, in the wrong.

SPOILER: Show

Literally if any one of these factors were changed, then everyone’s response would be much more justifiable and easier for the audience to sympathize with.

If he was aware of the massive risk yet chose to act anyways purely for his own interest in saving Rei, then yeah, everyone else would be justifiably mad when his stupid gamble didn’t pay off.

If Misato told him to stop because it was a really bad idea to keep going, then he could justifiably be blamed for disobeying direct orders to pursue his own interest in saving Rei. Misato can still feel guilty, because she’s ultimately the one who tried to get him to be more independent, and to start thinking and acting for himself.

If the timeline were compressed, or if he literally DID cause Third Impact, then it’s very easy to argue why others may view him as directly responsible for the end of the world.

[Szmitten]

In the 2.0 CRC, Tsurumaki explains that he had a hard time understanding Shinji refusing to re-pilot Eva-01 during the 10th Angel fight; he felt that him abandoning his friends and humanity in this way made him appear selfish and callous, so he asked Anno why Shinji would be doing this. Anno explained simply that Shinji "is just unable to see that." An unsatisfying answer. Tsurumaki goes on to ponder about Shinji as a reflection of Anno, and reckons that Anno is similar to this: if he hates things, he doesn't do them; he only does things he wants to, even if he has to arbitrarily change his mind to do so. Like tunnelvision. Tsurumaki goes on to say that while most of us sometimes have to do things we don't want to do, Anno probably never has, he always finds a way to avoid them.

If we assume Shinji's character operates the same as Anno's binary approach to problems, then you can assume that Anno's intent with Shinji during N3I is that he's so intent on saving Rei that he doesn't care about anything else or the consequences. But there were consequences: he didn't have to experience them, but everyone else did. This closed-mindedness continues into Q ("You don't know anything!" and pulling spears despite Kaworu saying not to etc) until he breaks. The purpose of Shin, and particularly towards the end when Gendo weirdly states Shinji having grown and comprehending Misato's sacrifice and heeding the wishes of others, demostrates his growth out of that absolutist self-centered mindset.

Having Wille explain everything to Shinji a) narratively presents a problem, but more importantly b) even if they did, it wouldn't help because he denies what people tell him throughout the film: "Ayanami is piloting that Eva!" "No she isn't, she doesn't exist anymore." "She's right there tho y u dum."; and again, Kaworu, someone he trusts, the person who tells him the plan to use the spears in the first place, begs him not to pull the spears, and yet "But you said we did tho."

Shinji is not a victim running away from scary things, he's so self-absorbed that he can't see other people's problems. Q reveals this, Shin overcomes this.

[gelflinghand]

I know this is very boring and people don't think it justifies Shinji's treatment but think of it this way: In September 2019 a kid has a pet bat, it's sick and he gives it CPR; after giving it CPR, he himself gets very sick and falls into a coma for two years; when he wakes up he finds out that he was patient zero of Covid-19, and everyone hates him for unleashing it on the world; but why are people mad at him?

You're missing out the fact that he was given the pet bat by his father who runs a bioweapons development lab sponsored by a powerful international organisation, and ordered to look after it and keep it close at all times no matter what. The analogy is diverging wildly from reality there, but if the world knew he was deliberately given an infected bat, it wouldn't be the kid that most people blamed.

[Konja7]

SPOILER: Show

If the timeline were compressed, or if he literally DID cause Third Impact, then it’s very easy to argue why others may view him as directly responsible for the end of the world.

Technically, Shinji caused a Third Impact in 2.0. It's called N3I because it was stopped by another person.

Unfortunately, we don't know how the Third Impact between 2.0 and 3.0 started.

Kaworu mentioned that Awakened Eva-01 opened the Gates of Guff and becomes the trigger to bring about the Third Impact. So, it seems Shinji's actions in 2.0 have consequences that caused the Third Impact, but we don't know the details.


PS: The other trigger for an Impact mentioned by Kaworu is he becoming the 13th Angel.

[Archer]

I’m not arguing about authorial intent here - I agree that what you’re describing is likely what Anno was going for. I’m just arguing that if that were his intent, what we actually see in the movies do a REALLY bad job of conveying it, and this isn’t something I’m willing to just handwave as “lol cultural differences” without seeing at least SOME concrete evidence that the Japanese fandom by and large sees no issue with the presumption that Shinji is responsible. If a Japanese-speaking forum member who is familiar with the Japanese Eva fandom (or at the very least is able to read their discussions) could chime in on the consensus there it would be enlightening.

If we assume Shinji's character operates the same as Anno's binary approach to problems, then you can assume that Anno's intent with Shinji during N3I is that he's so intent on saving Rei that he doesn't care about anything else or the consequences. But there were consequences: he didn't have to experience them, but everyone else did. This closed-mindedness continues into Q ("You don't know anything!" and pulling spears despite Kaworu saying not to etc) until he breaks. The purpose of Shin, and particularly towards the end when Gendo weirdly states Shinji having grown and comprehending Misato's sacrifice and heeding the wishes of others, demostrates his growth out of that absolutist self-centered mindset.

My whole point is when you put him in a situation where it’s ambiguous the degree to which he (and everyone who isn’t Ritsuko) actually understands the consequences of the situation, AND where it’s ambiguous how much of it is him going “fuck the rules ima do what I want” versus “my superior officer is cheering me on, I must be doing the right thing”, it becomes really hard to argue that he only did it because he didn’t care about the consequences. Would he still have done it if Misato told him to stop? Would he still have done it if he knew full well what his actions would mean? Honestly, I think he probably would have, and then we wouldn’t be sitting here having this debate, because obviously Shinji was in the wrong. But that’s not the point, because that’s not what the movie showed us. If the movie really wanted to show “Shinji bad because he only cares about his own interest and doesn’t care about the consequences of his actions on others”, all I saw was “Shinji makes an impulsive decision with the full approval of his commanding officer that ends up having unforeseen disastrous consequences months down the line because he acted without full knowledge of the situation during the heat of battle with adrenaline still pumping through his system, and also he is literally a 14 year old child soldier”.

Having Wille explain everything to Shinji a) narratively presents a problem, but more importantly b) even if they did, it wouldn't help because he denies what people tell him throughout the film: "Ayanami is piloting that Eva!" "No she isn't, she doesn't exist anymore." "She's right there tho y u dum."; and again, Kaworu, someone he trusts, the person who tells him the plan to use the spears in the first place, begs him not to pull the spears, and yet "But you said we did tho."

Having WILLE at least TRY to explain things in a level-headed way, and then having him deny it anyways, is EXACTLY what you need if your goal is to show that Shinji is the one being immature. Even better if this is something that only becomes apparent on a rewatch after finishing the series, where actions that the viewer previously perceived as cruel and irrational are recontextualized as actually being quite reasonable given the situation. This never happens, though. When I go back to the beginning of 3.0, the only impression I get is that EVERYONE is acting like a child, and that unlike the 14 year old who just woke up from a long coma and knows nothing about the outside world, the adults in the room don’t have an excuse.

If the ending of 2.0 was more like the ending of 3.0, it would’ve been a lot more effective at conveying the supposed authorial intent of “Shinji only cares about himself without thinking of the consequences”. In that situation, the person who told him everything he knows about the new world, and who devised the plan they’re currently carrying out, and who could in this situation be considered his superior, told him to stop because something was wrong, yet he still went ahead and did it anyways. In this scenario, it is unambiguous and undebatable that his actions are a DIRECT consequence of his character flaws. Yet, because his actions in previous instances can be explained away as more-or-less reasonable given the circumstances, instead of coming across as yet another instance in a pattern of behavior this just comes off as Shinji getting handed the idiot ball because it’s the only way to move the plot along.

[The18°angel]

I think that a problem in being able to define if Shinji should be blamed or not lies in several factors that were external and of which he had no knowledge.

to begin with let's start with nerv.

NERV's mission was to avoid a third impact (officially) and for that they had at least 5 EVA units (00 to 05 provincial) and officially had 3/4 pilots, Rei, Asuka, mari and Shinji (who was recruited in the last possible moment). NERV is fully willing to destroy the geo-front and sacrifice the pilots and their evas as long as it prevents an angel from reaching lillith (this is an important point since officially the only way a third impact can occur is if an angel reaches lillith and everyone including the pilots operate under this information except for Kaji, gendo and apparently mari)

NERV as an organization was completely fine with losing two-thirds of their fighting force in a matter of 48 hours because they managed to take down bardiel and test autopilot. by this i mean that Asuka was left for dead and the orders were especially to destroy unit 03 (to the point where if Shinji had decided to rescue Asuka, gendo would have used the dummy system) besides that Shinji gave up piloting the unit 01(and supposedly he was important until the dummy system came along so we can assume autopilot was enough for a controlled third impact)

when zeurel attacks it destroys NERV's defenses and defeats all the evas in addition to eating unit 00 becoming able to bypass the geo-front's automatic self-destruct system (which begs the question of how the angel was aware of said system and how was he able to figure out a way to overcome it with the correct strategy as well as making it clear that the NERV staff basically relied on the pilots and evas to accomplish their mission or they would all be screwed Misato's speech about everyone "being together in the mission" in 1.0 ceased to have value because it is not true at all the nerv staff could flee at any time and the self-destruction system would have taken care of everything).

then Shinji comes back and all the events happen and multiple things happen here that make it hard to blame him.

the information he has is to prevent the angel from reaching lillith at all costs. and that an eva is needed to avoid it. that is the information that NERV has and his objective in this aspect Shinji fulfilled his mission perfectly and if he had not done it all would have died (we cannot count on kaworu and unit 06 because they did not belong to NERV and the fact that the eva was completed and equipped with a spear capable of stopping impacts when the most powerful angel on record and with the ability to use strategies to circumvent the defense measures of the geo-front appeared makes it clear that SEELE already knew this could happen)

another point in the evas themselves, the NERV staff, ritsuko mainly the woman in charge of the evas did not know what those machines were really capable of... the woman in charge of the operation of 80 meter apocalyptic tall machines and she doesn't really know what they are capable of and she could only tell by watching in real time how a third impact occurred to the point that she only believed that Shinji would stop being human if he continued inside the awakened unit 01 this is basically the equivalent of that those who created the atomic bombs did not know if the explosion would burn the entire atmosphere or if it would only be destructive in a certain range and still they tested the atomic bombs.

at 3.0/3.0+1.0 WILLE has all the information necessary to use the evas correctly to the point that they are comfortable with removing all capacity limiters and equipping unit 02 with the necessary items to revive a dead angel in addition to that the pilots have 14+ years of experience using evas. and we discovered another important factor emotions play an important role in awakening a Eva, obviously that extremely important information only came 14 years too late. reminds me of the Chernobyl series and one line of dialogue.

"Why we're we going to think that something like that could happen"


only in this case that something was an N3I and it was not only incompetence/misinformation on the part of NERV but also something planned by gendo.

it's impossible to say where NERV/gendo/SEELE's responsibility/blame begins and where Shinji's begins.

uninformed (if not lied from the beginning). About piloting a machine to avoid the apocalypse.

not really knowing the capabilities of the eva he was piloting nor knowing exactly what the precise conditions needed were to wake up the eva, absorb an angel and cause an impact which is a pretty specific series of events that shouldn't happen under normal circumstances.

having been poorly trained to be an eva pilot remember that he at the end of 2.0 had only months of training and combat experience unlike the other pilots.

and finally the world of evangelion is known for having conspiracies and hiding the truth and due to the disaster that was the N3I where an eva caused an impact where it was supposed to only happen thanks to an angel reaching lillith and because Shinji it was "dead" (ritsuko apparently designated it as such and therefore no rescue was attempted before unit 01 was sent into space) it is possible that the official story was simply the fault of the pilot that the eva caused an apocalypse, and no one at NERV was responsible for what happened. that it was easier than explaining why everything happened besides that the truth would reveal the existence of a death cult that controls the planet. (Although we know that the truth came to light which apparently caused a world-wide war and that ended up making things worse because an angel came to lillith and seele took the opportunity to cause the true third impact).

the emotional factor is also important since if the information of 3.0/3.0+1.0 is correct Shinji could have awakened unit 01 by accident in the battle with the 8th angel m where Shinji made unit 01 break the sound barrier and will it to move at supersonic speed the only point in all 4 movies where an eva demonstrated abnormal physical abilities without having to use any special activation codes or major modifications beforehand.

[Konja7]

when zeurel attacks it destroys NERV's defenses and defeats all the evas in addition to eating unit 00 becoming able to bypass the geo-front's automatic self-destruct system (which begs the question of how the angel was aware of said system and how was he able to figure out a way to overcome it with the correct strategy as well as making it clear that the NERV staff basically relied on the pilots and evas to accomplish their mission or they would all be screwed Misato's speech about everyone "being together in the mission" in 1.0 ceased to have value because it is not true at all the nerv staff could flee at any time and the self-destruction system would have taken care of everything).

I think the point is that the NERV staff wouldn't have time to escape if the self-destruction system is activated. That's why Misato said they put their lives at risk too.

In Episode 24 of NGE, we could see that NERV staff were willing to die with the self-destruction of the geo-front.

the information he has is to prevent the angel from reaching lillith at all costs. and that an eva is needed to avoid it. that is the information that NERV has and his objective in this aspect Shinji fulfilled his mission perfectly and if he had not done it all would have died (we cannot count on kaworu and unit 06 because they did not belong to NERV and the fact that the eva was completed and equipped with a spear capable of stopping impacts when the most powerful angel on record and with the ability to use strategies to circumvent the defense measures of the geo-front appeared makes it clear that SEELE already knew this could happen)

The point is that Shinji doesn't care about saving the World at that moment. He just wanted to save Rei.

Also, I don't think SEELE knew what exactly will happen. SEELE send Kaworu and Mark-06 to the Earth when the situation with the 10th Angel was already pretty bad. So, it's possible SEELE just predicted that the Spear of Cassius could be necessary to stop the powerful 10th Angel or even the Third Impact.


PS: Gendo is the the great planner in Rebuild movies. He planned Awakened Eva-01 starting the Third Impact in 2.0, but he also expected that SEELE would send Mark-06 to stop it.

[The18°angel]

it seems to me that the whole thing about Shinji not caring about the world he just wanted to save Rei is to ignore the rest of the situation.
also
in 2.0 we have this:
Asuka: he doesn't really care about the world he just wants to pilot the eva because it's the only thing that matters to him and continue with his rom-com slice of life with Rei and Shinji (later we learn why this behavior but it doesn't matter why she did not care about the world in 2.0 but find out how it affected her)
Misato: she literally admits to Shinji right before he leaves that she doesn't care about the world and only joined NERV for revenge and to leave her past behind her.
mari: in 2.0 there is little information but considering that she doesn't react much after being defeated by zeurel and tells Shinji to run while she can we can assume that she doesn't care much about the outcome of the battle.
Kaji: the only one who seems to care about the fate of the world although this clashes with the whole matter of infiltrating nerv giving gendo the key of nebuconodozor that would be something that would have a strong price later and would be a problem for WILLE.

the irony is that hideki anno wants to portray Shinji as self-absorbed and will ignore others if he wants and so he is to blame for everything. but at the same time it puts the viewer in a situation where we can only be self-absorbed and see specifically that he is guilty by suffering from tunnel vision while ignoring everything else that could lighten Shinji's responsibility/blame

[SEELE-01]

Maybe that’s the view the story intends to get across, but I still think it just doesn’t work. As far as I’m concerned, the fact that he could not have reasonably understood the ramifications of his actions, and the fact that his superior immediate superior was literally cheering him on as he did it, combined with the fact that he is at worst only indirectly responsible for Gendo actually starting 3I months later, basically absolves him of blame*. Not to mention, in 3.0 it’s not like WILLE is explaining things to him calmly like responsible adults and he’s throwing a childish temper tantrum refusing to believe he’s done anything wrong - if anything, they’re the ones acting childish, bringing him up to the bridge for no reason other than to berate him and then acting surprised when he willingly runs off with Rei when they have given him no reason to believe what they’re saying. If the series’ intent was for me to come back to the beginning of 3.0 after having watched the last movie and see it in a new light of Shinji acting immaturely by refusing to listen to the adults, then it’s failed spectacularly, because it’s only reinforced my belief that Shinji literally did nothing wrong.

This.
I get the point they are trying to get across. I understand the idea that Shinji is being framed as self-absorbed. I'll go as far as saying that, even if everyone at WILLE knew all that led up to N3I (Gendo's plot, Rei's attempted rescue, Shinji returning after the events with Eva 03), there would still be people blaming Shinji entirely for it, simply because it is in human nature to simplify stuff and find a scapegoat to cope with things out of their control.

What I disagree with is the way everything in Q and Shin is laid out. Especially the actions of the Wunder crew and by extension, Misato and Ritsuko, I see as acting suboptimally (for not saying stupid) for reasons, and if those reasons are so that the plot can move on, then we have a major problem.

[Konja7]

What I disagree with is the way everything in Q and Shin is laid out. Especially the actions of the Wunder crew and by extension, Misato and Ritsuko, I see as acting suboptimally (for not saying stupid) for reasons, and if those reasons are so that the plot can move on, then we have a major problem.

I don't think WILLE members are stupid. They are cold and mean, but not really stupid. After all, they don't need to care about Shinji's feelings, since they put a bomb in his neck.

Also, many stories have the characters act in a certain way to move the plot. The problem is when this attitude is only a certain moment, what cannot be said about WILLE crew (they are still debating their feelings about Shinji on 3.0+1.0).

[Archer]

FWIW, I actually think the WILLE crew acts in a “reasonable” way, in that they do have justifiable reasons to be mad at him, and it’s not like they were EXPECTING NERV to attack right that moment. The problem with the scene isn’t with it’s in-universe validity but with it’s out-o-universe effectiveness at portraying Shinji as a self-absorbed brat.

I also don’t think it’s just to move the plot along - again, Shinji can just refuse to listen to them anyways, and in THAT case he would’ve ACTUALLY run away because he was acting like a brat, rather than for the completely justifiable reason of WILLE giving him literally zero reason to trust them.

[Leonaxzz]

I think it's more reasonable for people to blame Shinji for causing 3I, and it's even more unreasonable for people to forgive Shinji in 3.0+1.0.

I mean, Shinji didn't just cause N3I at all, look at what Rebuilds have gotten Shinji to do? how impossible and unreasonable it is for him to redeem himself for his mistakes and for Wille to trust him again.

Shinji had piloted EVA seven times before the final battle: 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 10th Angel, plus once for EVA-13, and disobeyed orders four times out of seven. If not counting the 4th Angel aka the first fight, Shinji literally has only followed orders twice, that's crazy.

And since the second half of 2.0, Shinji has not obeyed any orders already:
9th Angel: Refused to fight, and then threatened to destroy half of NERV HQ using Unit 01.
10th Angel: Caused N3I (needless to mention).
3.0: Escaped from Wille, piloted EVA 13 to fight Asuka and almost triggered 4I.

Shinji made not only one, he has made three mistakes in a row, every time coming back from running away he always claimed that he has changed and willing to help others, then the consequences of each mistake were worse than previous, what made Misato and Wille think this brat can be trusted again and again?
Not to mention Misato, I don't know how much credit she has left while dealing with Shinji's problem?

When she claims that she is Shinji's supervisor and will be full responsible for his actions, I would like to ask, how? She has always been Shinji's supervisor and half of the time Shinji is keeping making mistakes under her eyes, did she ever take responsibility for it every time Shinji made any mistake?
She cheered Shinji on when he awakened Unit 01, which led to the subsequent triggering of N3I.
When Shinji was salvaged, it was Misato who decided not to dispose him, causing Shinji to be snatched by Gendo.
When Shinji tried to escape, it was Misato who hesitated to press the switch of DSS Choker, which led to the subsequent 4I incident.
It was also Misato who gave permission when Shinji was back on the ship, and she still allowed him not to wear the DSS Choker.

No matter how much Wille's crew believes in Misato, it's clear that she's emotionally attached to Shinji which make things getting worse every time, while in 3.0+1.0 actually everyone except Midori is starting to defend Shinji or Misato, but it seems no one likely mentions the 9th Angel or even the 4I incident from 3.0.

So what reassures people that Shinji won't make another stupid mistake AGAIN? Because he has spent a few nights in the village? Because he smell the earth? As if he had never done these daily chores in 2.0? Shinji also went to the aquarium and planted watermelons with Kaji, and of course Misato must knew it, does this mean that Shinji is already a resiponsible and grown up man in 2.0?

I feel like the whole 3.0 and 3.0+1.0 is like they throw the problem on the table, take it quite seriously, but in the end nobody truly cares about it, or just pretend the problem doesn't exist.

[Konja7]

We speak about Shinji, but Asuka and Mari (who are totally innocent) receive a similar treatment from WILLE. I guess WILLE crew aren't so cold towards Asuka and Mari, but there is clearly a huge mistrust (even after 14 years working together).

The DSS Choket could be understandable to some extent, since Asuka can unleash something very dangerous with the Angel blood. However, the bombs in their room are totally excessive (not to mention that they increased the number of bombs due to Shinji's actions in 3.0).

Honestly, after seeing the treatment Asuka and Mari received from WILLE, the treatment to Shinji isn't surprising at all.

[SEELE-01]

I mean, Shinji didn't just cause N3I at all, look at what Rebuilds have gotten Shinji to do? how impossible and unreasonable it is for him to redeem himself for his mistakes and for Wille to trust him again.

Shinji had piloted EVA seven times before the final battle: 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 10th Angel, plus once for EVA-13, and disobeyed orders four times out of seven. If not counting the 4th Angel aka the first fight, Shinji literally has only followed orders twice, that's crazy.

Add to that that most of this happens because he's a 14-year-old who is shouldering the itty-bitty-simple task of saving the entire world.
Even within the fantasy element of the series, expecting someone to do that and not mess up is surreal. But he's being childish because eVeryOne AlsO SuffERed, yeah, where pink haired girl and Sakura ever in an Entry Plug? Did anyone at Wille ever synched with an Eva and felt their arms broken, body stabbed, boil alive, arms broken again, choked almost to death, arm broken again?

I know it reduces the argument to relativism, but the takeaway for me was that Wille only cared about the pilots because they were useful, but not wanted.

[EvaChero]

Well it fits in with my own observations that no matter how much "good" one may do, it only takes one screw up for everyone to hate you.

Of course there are screw ups....and there are SCREW UPS.....heh.

[Axx°N N.]

But, in this line of dialogue, he rejects these stakes as his motivation. We learn that he doesn't care about the world, or his own health. He just wants to save Rei.

But is that itself digestible as a character motivation based on what we've seen?

It's growth in a way, as Shinjij has historically been a self-involved character who has difficulty seeing the bigger picture in terms of duty and sacrifice when held against personal harm and discomfort. But in a way it's still selfish, and it's really just roping in a secondary person; an island of two mindset, screw the rest of civilization. As I understand it, Shinji is supposed to be thematically mirroring his father: Gendo is obsessively chasing after his deceased partner to the undoing of everyone else's personhood, and here Shinji is obsessively attempting to rescue someone who is, genetically, that some woman, and Shinji is, genetically, a derivation of Gendo, and the situation is at the expense of everyone else as well. The difference is knowledge and intent.

Yet (said rewatch notwithstanding) I'm not convinced by why Shinji snaps here and why he suddenly wants to rope Rei in so badly as an honorary "us against everyone else" kind of thing. Perhaps he's so burdened by the confines of what should be his motivation that this substitute is more viscerally and personally rewarding. But I just can't follow from A to B, similar to how Shinji's sudden wisdom and maturity feels like it's skipping a few steps (montages not sufficient, imo) in Thrice. I get it that, conceptually, Shinji desperately saving Rei must be informed by the recent failure to save Asuka, but I feel like the psychological passage between these two events is abrupt.

I think the other problem, and this seems to be how it all keeps boiling down, is the issue of intent. If Shinji's motivation here truly is saving Rei, and it's wrong because he's elevating the both of them above the mass, wouldn't that motivation entail avoiding total cataclysm, anyway? Rei and himself would be included in any total annihilation, so wouldn't he naturally want to avoid anything that harms the sum total of all people?

Either way, there's ignorance on Shinji's part of what on earth could result from what he's doing, unless we're to take it that he was going to glom onto spirit Rei and just exist as Gendo wanted to with Yui while everyone else is involuntarily tangified. Would he, comprehending that as an end result, reverse it a la EoE? Nonetheless, I don't see where the blame enters.

That's a fair exercise. But, I don't think playing with those hypotheticals should distract from the more significant point I'm trying to make, which is that in the west faultless people are still blameworthy if they cause enough mayhem. I haven't seen this point made at all in the conversations about N3I and 3I, (I know, I know, I'm very new here so I may have missed an old conversation about this) so I think it's important to get it out there.

I haven't seen it brought up, and it's an interesting angle and I do value the point, I wasn't meaning to distract from it. But the films themselves don't really approach the issue from a legal framework; it's a civilization that was created (and manipulated) by a secret cult, including laws, which none off the cast seems concerned with. Shinji is imprisoned by guerillas here and there, but there's no court hearing, no deliberation, really, and there's no indication anything legal is considered after his penitence begins or ends.

As for the legal angle, though, I took a gander at strict liability and related topics (mens rea, re polemis, sweet vs parsley, etc.) and I'm not convinced it's so black and white as "western society will indict anyone if the harm is large enough." Strict liability seems to have been softened or eliminated in many specific contexts. Like anything legal, there's fallibility and complexity at play. Are you a legal expert? I'm not being ironic or cutting here, I'm asking because I think it would be interesting to get an informed opinion on it (I definitely don't have one). But surely, even though much has to be made about Shinji's lack of intent, the massive contravening factor that there is known, unambiguous intent on the part of someone manipulating the events in question would be significant in the consideration of Shinji's case, right? What's more, the fact that Shinji is a subordinate to quite a few people, which would introduce its own complex legal angle; for instance, the legal terrain of war crimes.

-Shinji's actions created the conditions for Third Impact by starting it, forcing it to be paused, removing/introducing Eva's and Spears into play, and creating the environment for Seele to accelerate its plans. I know this is very boring and people don't think it justifies Shinji's treatment but think of it this way: In September 2019 a kid has a pet bat, it's sick and he gives it CPR; after giving it CPR, he himself gets very sick and falls into a coma for two years; when he wakes up he finds out that he was patient zero of Covid-19, and everyone hates him for unleashing it on the world; but why are people mad at him? He did something noble saving an animal he loved (which is now gone) and he didn't spread it or go on a plane himself, it's not his fault. It's irrelevant, you're mad at him for opening pandora's box. Now imagine instead of a disease it's 7 billion dead and the total toxification of the earth. To me, the Villagers not caring or forgiving Shinji so easily (if they even know) is the more profound (and sweeter) notion here.

I co-sign with gelflinghand on the patient zero analogy not being accurate. But to take a look at an actual patient zero, it's worth pointing out that the treatment of Typhoid Mary is to this day hotly contested regarding the ethics (or lack thereof). It's not black and white. In your analogy, I personally would not hate or blame the kid; I don't see any logical reason why I should.

There's no exploration of forgiveness in the village scenes. The villagers' forgiveness is either tacit or non-existent.

[nerv bae]

Whether Shinji's motivations are digestible based on what we've seen, and the factor of intentional manipulation of the events in question, are both topics that I want to explore further. But I've run into the limits of my memory and need to do my own rewatch this week! Will try to respond in depth afterwards.

Further to the blame topic, an offhand thought about legalism and religiosity (theologism?). I introduced the strict liability issue in this format:

1) ... is a thing in the western religious tradition, after all.
2) In the western legal tradition there are ...

In my opinion, religious traditions and legal traditions inform ordinary morality, even outside of an explicit religious or legal context. For example, people generally agree that killing others is wrong, without always connecting that ordinary moral opinion to religious and legal prohibitions on murder. Now, you are completely correct to point out the following:

But the films themselves don't really approach the issue from a legal framework; it's a civilization that was created (and manipulated) by a secret cult, including laws, which none off the cast seems concerned with. Shinji is imprisoned by guerillas here and there, but there's no court hearing, no deliberation, really, and there's no indication anything legal is considered after his penitence begins or ends.

All true. Similarly I don't think the cast are concerned with being pious, either, in that NTE does not show them attending church service or consulting with pastors or the like* (crossing my fingers pre-rewatch that I've got this right). Nevertheless the cast have a bunch of ordinary moral opinions about right and wrong, and I'm still speculating that these are informed by the otherwise-absent religious** and legal traditions they live with -- there aren't any lawsuits based on strict liability doctrines following 3I but I think the bridge bunnies still grasp those doctrines' premises at an ordinary moral level. This point feels a bit sloppy as I write it out but I wanted to get something down before I start reinjecting NTE directly into my veins this week.

*I know I'm crossing west and east here, probably to the detriment of this point.
**Of course religious imagery is not absent from NTE, but I think that is mainly for lore purposes, which is different than what I'm getting at here.