The Nature of the Ghostly Reis: Rei/Lilith/GNR and all that

[Sailor Star Dust]

Er, Rei-3 is the clone who tends to be depicted in her school uniform (bookend Reis, hell train Rei). There's really no reason to NOT think that Lilith took Rei's form/vice-versa to help Shinji along the way in NGE and EoE. (Probably because Shinji noticed her and both of them sharing Yui's DNA. More deeply, everyone's connection to Lilith).

I think this is one of those cases similiar to the Eva or Angels where people/the viewers aren't meant to fully understand how the Gods/desses work.

[NemZ]

it isn't fixed, though... sometimes there's a plugsuit Rei and other times there's a naked Rei but there's always a school uniformed one, and which is which is somewhat left up to the context.

And I still think this notion that the version that really needs a better name is helping Shinji out of some genetic bond rather than because of the obvious emotional one is very dubious.

[planet news]

The Angels are extraterrestrials and the Evas are cyborg Angels so there isn't really any "magic" involved that cannot be theorized over. If the creators ever had a scientific explanation for the ghost Rei, it would probably have been based in quantum mechanics (not that I really know what that is) because it's the only science that directly deals with things existing simultaneously in different times and traveling backward through time.

[Sailor Star Dust]

Nemz: Who says Rei isn't helping due to BOTH genetic and emotional reasons? Besides, you know as well as I do that bookend/helltrain Rei deals with wacky quantum stuff. Otherwise it's normally Rei 1, 2, or 3 that the viewer sees/deals with.

planet news: It's revealed in 23' that Rei has something to do with Quantum Physics and Mechanics, for what it's worth.

Anyway, I agree with Reichu that Lilith/quantum Rei is still the same goddess from EoE, so why label different aspects of her?

[NemZ]

Because genetic similarities aren't much of a motivation to do anything. If relatives care about each other it's because of emotional bonds formed through experience, not similar protein structures we can't directly sense. People who are separated and seek to form such a bond do so out of desire for a relationship of that sort as they perceive between others or to better understand their own history.

Also, I think Rei 3 is just as dead as Rei 2 before EoE concludes. When she fuses with Kaworu and reunites with whatever is left in Lilith she stops being herself, even if Rei 3 is the core around which the new composite being manifests. I also think she fused with Yui/01, changing yet again, and that she probably unraveled to some extent with GNR's death, becoming yet another version. Every time you alter someone's soul I think it's justified to call that a new person.

[Reichu]

If relatives care about each other it's because of emotional bonds formed through experience, not similar protein structures we can't directly sense.

The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. There are surely lots of boring scientific research on the matter (down to investigation of the Cinderella effect).

BTW, DNA is a nucleic acid (in case you were implying it was fundamentally a protein). Also, humans might be able to detect more with our degenerated olfactory abilities than we realize (the "sweaty T-shirt" experiment comes to mind, though there could be other relevant research), which might allow us to subconsciously identify kin through scent (Leia: "Somehow, I always knew...!"). Such covert behind-the-scene workings would conveniently explain the ancient ritual of Putting Up With Relatives You Absolutely Can't Stand.

Every time you alter someone's soul I think it's justified to call that a new person.

So by this train of logic, for consistency's sake we should be labeling the various incarnations of Shinji as well:

Shinji-1: Up to the end of #19
Shinji-2: From #20 up to Tangification in #26'
Shinji-3: The one that's velcroed to Hell and back, and finally pops out of the ooze to go crazy again.

And since all humans undergo the Mass Velcro-ization of HIP, they will require Version Numbers as well. So, for example, we must refer to the Asuka in the final scene as Asuka 2-point-something, lest we neglect to account for the fact that her soul has been changed.

Well, hopefully you catch my drift.

And if you want to be technical, someone's soul is altered simply through the course of LIVING.

[LiLi]

the version that really needs a better name

GazeRei? FlickeRei?

[AuraTwilight]

I still don't see what the problem was with "Book-end Rei" that we need to shorten it to a number anyway. Is "Bookend Rei" so laborious to type?

[Sailor Star Dust]

I still don't see what the problem was with "Book-end Rei" that we need to shorten it to a number anyway. Is "Bookend Rei" so laborious to type?

I think it's more of an issue that supposedly Lilith and Rei appearing in multiple places in EoE compared bookend/helltrain Rei in NGE and EoE supposedly aren't the same Goddess-Rei/Lilith but different versions of her, if I understand the argument correctly.

Either way I don't agree with that argument.

Also, because I didn't get a chance to clarify earlier:



and

In Ep.23, when Ritsuko shows Shinji and Misato the room where Rei was born, the words "Top", "Bottom", and "Strangeness" are written on the wall. These are terms from Quantum Mechanics, and as it is emphasized that this was Rei's room, they must have been put there as a clue as to Rei's nature. Quantum Mechanics describes the behavior of subatomic particles. The basic subatomic particle, so far as we know, is the quark. Top and bottom are two of the six kinds of quarks known to exist. The reason that this is relevant is that quarks behave in ways that would be impossible in normal physics. For instance, a single quark can be in more than one place at a time.

The Angels are extraterrestrials and the Evas are cyborg Angels so there isn't really any "magic" involved that cannot be theorized over.

The only "extraterrestrial" beings are Lilith and Adam, and by extension, the First Ancestral Race.

Angels are humans, but a different form of them.

Anyway, I think you misunderstood my earlier point. I meant that obviously the viewer and the characters themselves don't understand every single thing there IS to understand about the Eva as well as the Angels and the Sources of Life. And I'd say this is partly intentional in that people won't ALWAYS understand other people in general, as well as the fact that "otherworldly" beings (fiction or reality) will always be something of a mystery no matter how much of an understanding you have of them.

And if you want to be technical, someone's soul is altered simply through the course of LIVING.

Exactly.

[VoidEater]

So you're suggesting that upon leaving spacetime Rei stopped caring about Shinji, despite likely existing in an eternal state of now where she saw him just a few minutes ago?

Dealing with the first bookend as an example: if we insist that the thing observing man takes a special interest in Shinji, this could be because part of the thing observing man has had a taste of Yui DNA which makes Shinji of particular interest (having Yui DNA as well).

But frankly I'm not brainz enough to hold the range of ghostly Rei avatars in my head all at the same time, so I seek out a simpler answer. That, and the Zen traditions tell us that the existence that observes man is promiscuous.

[Reichu]

If it hasn't been done, it might be worthwhile to J-Google the phrase that got turned into "existence that gazes upon man". Just in case it's a reference to something, instead of (possibly) something the booklet writer came up with on the spot that sounded cool.

I may offer my services for this later once I finally start recollecting my Power-Ups...

[NemZ]

Cinderella effect

Hmm... clearly I need to curl up with wikipedia on a cozy evening and find out what you're talking about.

And yeah, the protein comment was just me casually being a dumbass.

So by this train of logic, for consistency's sake we should be labeling the various incarnations of Shinji as well

His soul stayed constant though, only his body changed. Otherwise, I actually agree... Everyone (Shinji more than most) does die along the way at least once.

someone's soul is altered simply through the course of LIVING.

Can't argue with that, though it's certainly a more gradual sort of change then being divided, recombined, or fused with others.

recollecting my Power-Ups

I havne't the slightest idea what you mean here, but it sounds lulz-worthy.

If we insist that the thing observing man takes a special interest in Shinji, this could be because part of the thing observing man has had a taste of Yui DNA which makes Shinji of particular interest (having Yui DNA as well).

You talk as if "FlickeRei" (I like that one, LiLi ) has spontaneously been purged of all her former experiences and motivations. I find this doubtful.

[Reichu]

I'm on my old PC right now, so I've been able to oblige. The phrase in the booklet is 「ヒトを見つめる存在」(hito o mitsumeru sonzai). The only result (even trying "hito" in kanji and hiragana) I get in Google is a transcript of the booklet's text. Take that as you will.

[VoidEater]

You talk as if "FlickeRei" (I like that one, LiLi ) has spontaneously been purged of all her former experiences and motivations. I find this doubtful.

Not my intent; rather, the suggestion is that FlickeRei is not particularly obsessed with her own identity.

Seeing "the existence that gazes upon man" in the form of an individual allows us to project our expectations of that individual onto the larger entity. We then infer that Lilith becomes Rei, rather than seeing Lilith as having a facet that is Rei.

One might imagine that "the existence" responds to Shinji by manifesting as Rei, which might further support that "the existence" is indeed particularly interested in Shinji - though by way of feedback, rather than pristine intent.

[NemZ]

Yeah... I don't have a clue what you mean by that last sentence.

Otherwise I think I agree.

[VoidEater]

IOW: maybe "the existence" only looks like Rei to Shinji.

[NemZ]

Wait... are you saying "the existance" isn't Rei?

What does it mean to not be 'obsessed with her own identity", and how is that different then saying she's be separated from her experiences and motivations? What is an identity if not that?

[AshPhoenix]

Just a side note:
In EoE, where Rei/Lilith goes around during 3I "collecting souls", could it be possible that these Rei apparitions are similar to Ghostly Rei?

[AuraTwilight]

Uh, yea. That's been covered ages ago in this very thread. Please read it.

[TheLobe]

I have a problem with the entire sent back in time thing. firstly the idea of time travel hasn't even been touched on before. Even god can't send his prophets back to stop things happening. it seems so out of place. And apart from her role as narrative bookmarker why would she choose to manifest there. It serves no purpose. I know she needs to watch Shinji, (why else does she need so many eyes) but why then. She knows what happened anyway, having absorbed Shinji by then. furthermore the idea that she can travel back in time throws into doubt that any of the reis seen through the story are real.

What seems more likely is that Shinji is viewing the series in retrospect once he ahs been absorbed, which is why some characters seem to be manifestations of his own tendancies feelings. As he has been absorbed into Rei by then she can appear in his memories.