The Count/AyrYntake tangent

[Count A'ight]

First of all, we know for a fact that Rei is a clone from the Reiquarium scenes.

The only thing that we know from those scenes (aside from the dummy plug info) is that Rei has been cloned. There's a BIG difference between being cloned and being a clone.

Secondly, we know from the unnatural hair colour (as well as her behaviour, and her own admission) that she is not entirely human.

No, we know from her hair color that she has Anime Hair™ (see Laws of Anime physics #31). Sadamoto himself said very clearly that the hair color had no deeper significance than to make her look cooler and more distinct, or something to that effect. Her behavior shows no signs of being anything but human. More importantly, the fact that she carries the soul of Lilith sheds no light on the nature of her connection to Yui.

The only humans who could possibly have been in direct contact with Angel material in the entirety of the Evangelion storyline, discounting pilots, are Akira Katsuragi, Yui Ikari and Kyoko Zeppelin Soryu.

And where is it written that her genome, or the human part thereof, must have come from someone who was in direct contact with Angel material? Hell, how can we even be sure that only one human contributed to her DNA?

[Gamer_2k4]

First of all, we know for a fact that Rei is a clone from the Reiquarium scenes.

The only thing that we know from those scenes (aside from the dummy plug info) is that Rei has been cloned. There's a BIG difference between being cloned and being a clone.

This is probably the only one I'm qualified to answer, but the answer is very simple.

Rei died at least twice in the series. Therefore, since there were at least three different Reis, at least two of them were clones (and probably all three were). Note that this is a purely logical response; I don't have any sources ready to verify it.

[AyrYntake]

Oh no, has it come to this?!

The only thing that we know from those scenes (aside from the dummy plug info) is that Rei has been cloned. There's a BIG difference between being cloned and being a clone.

Cloned from whom? The only plausible answer is from Yui.

[Count A'ight]

They were cloned from the original Rei, of course.

[Reichu]

It's canonically stated in multiple places that Rei is a "copy" of Yui, not like this is any kind of revelation.[/yawn]

[AyrYntake]

It's canonically stated in multiple places that Rei is a "copy" of Yui, not like this is any kind of revelation.

Which is why I objected to this thread in the first place. It's just the fact that Count is apparently trying to play devil's advocate here, not to mention ignoring the obvious, that we have to clarify.

Her behavior shows no signs of being anything but human.

You could not be more wrong. Rei's behaviour is distinctly unfamiliar with the human race and its mannerisms. Throughout the series Rei repeatedly questions the reasons for her existence and calls herself a "human-shaped thing", implying that she is only a human in physical appearance. And for a proof by contradiction, assuming that she were wholly human, how would she possibly be able to make use of AT Field powers in EoE (arm regrowth, levitation) with the same ease as Kaworu, or recognize Lilith without any supposed prompting previously?

Hence

They were cloned from the original Rei, of course.

is an unsatisfactory answer. Rei's origins are distinctly part human and part Angel.

Now, human material, by definition, comes from humans. To make Rei's human side you'd have to have a human to start with. You'd then have to put it in direct contact with the Angel part, deliberately or by accident, in order to result in Rei.

Therefore:

Hell, how can we even be sure that only one human contributed to her DNA?

We can be sure because only those three have ever had the possibility of contributing to Rei's DNA, and the other two were not the ones who did so.
As I have argued before.

[Semisubtle]

I always liked to think Rei I was a result of the CE between Yui and Eva 01. We've all see the images of Lilith connected to Eva 01, what if that were taking place at the same time as the CE? Yui goes in, her soul remains in the Eva, but out pops a little Rei a la Shinji in Ep. 20, though containing the soul of Lilith. All subsequent Reis were cloned from her.

[NemZ]

Just consider the implications of Ritsuko's tour guide impression in 23:

1> Here is where we created Rei.
2> Here is where your mom died.
3> Here is where we keep... make that kept... all the spare Reis.

This scene is intended to be an expository sledgehammer to make sure the audience makes sense of all the little clues about Rei dropped so far. If Rei is a clone of anyone other than Yui then it makes absolutely no sense at all that the 'mom died' portion of the tour occurs.

[AyrYntake]

Thanks. The two above arguments are great, and key to backing up what I've just tried to prove, but what I wanted to make sure of was that there was concrete evidence for Count to go on, so we could all get back to whatever we were doing before this dumb idea of Rei not being related to Yui showed up.

[Count A'ight]

It's canonically stated in multiple places that Rei is a "copy" of Yui

Feel free to point them out. I do not remember anything in the original series, the NPCs, Death, or EoE that made mention of this.

Rei's behaviour is distinctly unfamiliar with the human race and its mannerisms. Throughout the series Rei repeatedly questions the reasons for her existence

This is evidence of an abnormal childhood. Nothing more.

and calls herself a "human-shaped thing"

When?

And for a proof by contradiction, assuming that she were wholly human, how would she possibly be able to make use of AT Field powers in EoE (arm regrowth, levitation) with the same ease as Kaworu,

Yes. THIS is the dead giveaway that part of her is not human. The rest is completely extraneous, and you could have saved yourself quite a bit of typing by not mentioning it :)

or recognize Lilith without any supposed prompting previously?

Because Gendo revealed his Secret Evil Plot™ to her.

Rei's origins are distinctly part human and part Angel.

Yup. I never disagreed with this part.

Now, human material, by definition, comes from humans.

To make Rei's human side you'd have to have a human to start with. You'd then have to put it in direct contact with the Angel part, deliberately or by accident, in order to result in Rei.

Yes, that follows.

(ignoring, of course, the tiny little fact that angels have human DNA...)

We can be sure because only those three have ever had the possibility of contributing to Rei's DNA

BZZZT.

This erroneous assumption is the chink in your argument. Please try again.

Just consider the implications of Ritsuko's tour guide impression in 23

She says many things during her tour, not all of which are related. For example, she says some stuff about Adam and 2I, but this does not mean that the Rei-tachi were related to Adam or 2I. And exactly how the Eva graveyard fits into anything she says is anyone's guess.

[AyrYntake]

and calls herself a "human-shaped thing"

When?

My mistake, I admit; she calls herself a "Rei-shaped thing" in Episode 14. Rei is shaped like a human, so it's not a gross assumption to make. In any case, I've proved she's part Angel anyway, which is what I wanted to prove.

(ignoring, of course, the tiny little fact that angels have human DNA...)

No, Angels have a wave pattern that is over 99% similar to human DNA.

There are fundamental differences between humans and Angels. I doubted this before, but you can't lump humans and Angels together, especially not when you're discussing origins.

We can be sure because only those three have ever had the possibility of contributing to Rei's DNA

BZZZT.

This erroneous assumption is the chink in your argument. Please try again.

The burden of proof is on you to find any more people who could possibly have been the donors of her human side. Find them and I'll deal with them accordingly.

[NemZ]

She says many things during her tour, not all of which are related. For example, she says some stuff about Adam and 2I, but this does not mean that the Rei-tachi were related to Adam or 2I. And exactly how the Eva graveyard fits into anything she says is anyone's guess.

Actually, that passage also connects the two when she reveals that evas are created human beings based upon angeles (like Rei) and that they each hold a soul (like Yui's). She doesn't mention Lilith (is it possible she doesn't actually know the identity of the marshmallow giant?) but the 'math' works out pretty clear:

Yui body + Lilith soul = Rei
Yui soul + Lilith body = Unit 01

[Count A'ight]

In any case, I've proved she's part Angel anyway, which is what I wanted to prove.

No, what you wanted to prove was that her DNA came from Yui. Stop changing the subject.

No, Angels have a wave pattern that is over 99% similar to human DNA.

There are fundamental differences blah blah blah

And that's why I said to ignore it.

The burden of proof is on you to find any more people who could possibly have been the donors of her human side. Find them and I'll deal with them accordingly.

I nominate "literally anyone on the planet whose DNA was available at the time".

[AyrYntake]

No, what you wanted to prove was that her DNA came from Yui. Stop changing the subject.

Yes; key to that proof was the fact that she was part Angel. Get it?

And that's why I said to ignore it.

Ignored.

I nominate "literally anyone on the planet whose DNA was available at the time".

The only people whose DNA could possibly have come into contact with that particular Angelic soul were those three.

[Count A'ight]

Yes; key to that proof was the fact that she was part Angel. Get it?

Not really.

The only people whose DNA could possibly have come into contact with Angelic matter were those three.

1) Who said anything about Angelic matter? What reason is there to believe that Rei's soul is not the only part of her that's Angelic?

2) Why are those 3 people the only ones who could have come into contact with an Angel (presumably Lilith)?

[AyrYntake]

Yes; key to that proof was the fact that she was part Angel. Get it?

Not really.

Well, you need her to be part Angel so as to prove that her body, and not her entirety, is Yui's.

The only people whose DNA could possibly have come into contact with Angelic matter were those three.

1) Who said anything about Angelic matter? What reason is there to believe that Rei's soul is not the only part of her that's Angelic?

Sorry; fixed.

2) Why are those 3 people the only ones who could have come into contact with an Angel (presumably Lilith)?

Because Angels weren't widely known to the masses. Out of the people who knew about them, it was considered highly dangerous to directly come into physical contact with one, especially after the first time killed half the entire world.

Seriously, if any person came into contact with an Angel, NERV would know about it. And those three are the only three NERV knew about.

[Veleon]

Rei and Yui have the same voice actor, therefore Rei must be a clone of Yui. The evidence says so. So, Yui must've been cloned from Pen-pen. So, Rei is part penguin.

Aside from the obvious attempt at humor there...

Can it really be that someone is questioning the validity that Rei is a clone of Yui?

Everything in the series points to that. Shinji thinking of Rei as motherly, Gendo's affection for her, Dr. Akagi mentioning she looks just like her, Rei's compatibility with Eva-01 and Shinji's compatibility with Unit-00, the Reiquarium scene, etc.

However, no one in the series ever said "Rei is a clone of Yui." So because of that we should question it?

If you want to believe Rei isn't a clone of Yui then you'd also have to explain and give proof of how all the things that point to her being a clone of Yui are wrong. I repeat, you'd have to prove them wrong. Not prove they could be wrong.

There is a strong argument for Rei being a clone for Yui. However, you have only poked at the validity of the argument. Since it is a strong argument, not a valid argument, it has non-perfect form. You need to prove the premises false. Prove that the things mentioned do not point to Rei being a clone of Yui.

[Ark]

Isn't it written in some official material somewhere that Rei I was the result of the failed Yui retrieval experiment?

If so she's not exactly a clone.

[FallenTabris]

No, we know from her hair color that she has Anime Hair™ (see Laws of Anime physics #31). Sadamoto himself said very clearly that the hair color had no deeper significance than to make her look cooler and more distinct, or something to that effect. Her behavior shows no signs of being anything but human. More importantly, the fact that she carries the soul of Lilith sheds no light on the nature of her connection to Yui.

But it's worth noting that as with many things in Eva, they took the pale skin/red eyes theme and rolled with it, eventually making for an albinism implication that followed into Kaworu, another clone.

[master_lloyd]

albinism

Now you've done it! You've said the 'A' word.

Prepare for "They aren't really albino" related flaming!