Gendou and Yui

[Dave]

What field of science were they "experts" in? And how did they meet?

[Mr. Tines]

What field of science were they "experts" in? And how did they meet?

Episode #21 sort-of answers this. Yui seemed to know of Gendo by reputation. And since this is where her sensei, Fuyutsuki was working at the time



that would seem to be their field of expertise.

[Reichu]

I'm still wondering what on Earth "metabiology" is and what it has to do with Gehirn's work...

Is it possible that Gendo was associated with the college somehow? He was quite a bit older than Yui, so I seriously doubt that he was just some student...

[bp32]

I'm still wondering what on Earth "metabiology" is and what it has to do with Gehirn's work...

Is it possible that Gendo was associated with the college somehow? He was quite a bit older than Yui, so I seriously doubt that he was just some student...

They were grad students I believe--so the gap in age would not be that dramatic....

[Nephilim]

I'm still wondering what on Earth "metabiology" is and what it has to do with Gehirn's work...

I gess it has to do with all the soul stuff :roll:

[Carl Horn]

I'm still wondering what on Earth "metabiology" is and what it has to do with Gehirn's work...

Is it possible that Gendo was associated with the college somehow? He was quite a bit older than Yui, so I seriously doubt that he was just some student...

Not metabiology. Metaphysical biology, man. It's like biology but without the math requirement. For the cognitive heavy lifting you exploit lonely women in the department of computer science and/or their daughters. Ritsuko received no class credit for sleeping with Gendo, which just goes to show you that he is a very bad man. Anyway, you end up getting real high and start writing grant proposals to SEELE...which, I suspect, is what the power-mad founder of this forum is currently planning.

[Reichu]

Not metabiology. Metaphysical biology, man.

Aren't they one and the same?

And BTW, dude, better lay off those drugz for a little while. ;) You might start prowling around at night on all fours and killing innocent sheep at petting zoos with your bare teeth.

[AchtungAffen]

Isn't it a contradiction? I mean, biology is a physical science. And metaphysical means "beyond physical". I guess it does have to do with souls after all. The biology of unphysical stuff.

[Reichu]

Isn't it a contradiction? I mean, biology is a physical science. And metaphysical means "beyond physical". I guess it does have to do with souls after all. The biology of unphysical stuff.

For some reason, I'm skeptical that Kyoto University would be offering soul physics as a major. :P Besides, wasn't biotechnology Yui's real specialty? She was supposed to have played a major role in the development of the Evas, after all.

[Carl Horn]

Isn't it a contradiction? I mean, biology is a physical science. And metaphysical means "beyond physical". I guess it does have to do with souls after all. The biology of unphysical stuff.

For some reason, I'm skeptical that Kyoto University would be offering soul physics as a major. :P Besides, wasn't biotechnology Yui's real specialty? She was supposed to have played a major role in the development of the Evas, after all.

Signs like this might be a tip that EVA is not what you'd call a hard-SF show. Its pseudoscientific gobbledygook is hell of cool--much better than, say, STAR TREK's--but it's not one of those anime based on established theory. Good thing it's all a metaphor.

[Reichu]

Isn't it a contradiction? I mean, biology is a physical science. And metaphysical means "beyond physical". I guess it does have to do with souls after all. The biology of unphysical stuff.

For some reason, I'm skeptical that Kyoto University would be offering soul physics as a major. :P Besides, wasn't biotechnology Yui's real specialty? She was supposed to have played a major role in the development of the Evas, after all.

Signs like this might be a tip that EVA is not what you'd call a hard-SF show. Its pseudoscientific gobbledygook is hell of cool--much better than, say, STAR TREK's--but it's not one of those anime based on established theory. Good thing it's all a metaphor.

Nuh-uh! EVA is REAL!!

But, really, I wasn't quibbling about NGE's pseudoscience; I'm perfectly fine with it. Rather, I would've expected that something like "soul science" (an established reality in the NGE universe) would be heavily coveted, and not the sort of thing you could just take a university class about! But anyway, are we even sure that's what metabiology is referring to?

[Carl Horn]

Isn't it a contradiction? I mean, biology is a physical science. And metaphysical means "beyond physical". I guess it does have to do with souls after all. The biology of unphysical stuff.

For some reason, I'm skeptical that Kyoto University would be offering soul physics as a major. :P Besides, wasn't biotechnology Yui's real specialty? She was supposed to have played a major role in the development of the Evas, after all.

Signs like this might be a tip that EVA is not what you'd call a hard-SF show. Its pseudoscientific gobbledygook is hell of cool--much better than, say, STAR TREK's--but it's not one of those anime based on established theory. Good thing it's all a metaphor.

Nuh-uh! EVA is REAL!!

But, really, I wasn't quibbling about NGE's pseudoscience; I'm perfectly fine with it. Rather, I would've expected that something like "soul science" (an established reality in the NGE universe) would be heavily coveted, and not the sort of thing you could just take a university class about! But anyway, are we even sure that's what metabiology is referring to?

"Metabiology" refers to several different interesting things--the term has been used to describe genetic engineering; in psycholanalysis, the study of "drive theory"--like destrudo vs. libido. Obviously metabiology would be a good term to describe the vague yet ominous goings-on at GEHIRN.

There is also such a term in real life as "metaphysical biology," but it is most often used in the history of philosophy; specifically, that Aristotle believed in "innate natures" within types of people that determine what kind of people they are (similar concepts have existed in other cultures, of course). Some people have argued for the reconsideration of these ideas in the light of genetic research, although Aristotle's own thinking was often unscientific (just like EVA).

What I want to do is have another look at the original kanji on the door. (I *think* I did check they in fact really do say, "metaphysical biology," because the issue comes up in Vol. 9 of the manga, too). Then I'd want to look into whether these are the same kanji used when Japanese people discuss Aristotle; that would suggest they really did mean "metaphysical biology" rather than "metabiology."

Even so, there is the possibility of a confusion of terms. That's why, in the EVA manga Dossier section, I tried to state things in a way, "this term is used to mean this, but it is also used to mean this..." without trying to assert exactly what Anno or one of the screenwriters meant by it--because I don't know.

[Reichu]

I just looked at #21, and the kanji are 形而上生物 -- indeed, "metaphysical biology". I vaguely remember (I think) looking it up in my Nelson's kanji dictionary long ago and getting "metabiology", but I'll have to wait until I return to the dorms to check that... Is "metabiology" really a separate concept, as opposed to being just an abbreviated form of "metaphysical biology".

Obviously metabiology would be a good term to describe the vague yet ominous goings-on at GEHIRN.

They self-described it as "artificial evolution"... Hey, isn't that what animal breeders do? :P

Then I'd want to look into whether these are the same kanji used when Japanese people discuss Aristotle; that would suggest they really did mean "metaphysical biology" rather than "metabiology."

Well, I Googled for "形而上生物　アリストテレス" and got nothing. Then, I have no idea what "metabiology" might be in kanji...

[Carl Horn]

I just looked at #21, and the kanji are ????? -- indeed, "metaphysical biology". I vaguely remember (I think) looking it up in my Nelson's kanji dictionary long ago and getting "metabiology", but I'll have to wait until I return to the dorms to check that... Is "metabiology" really a separate concept, as opposed to being just an abbreviated form of "metaphysical biology".

Obviously metabiology would be a good term to describe the vague yet ominous goings-on at GEHIRN.

They self-described it as "artificial evolution"... Hey, isn't that what animal breeders do? :P

Then I'd want to look into whether these are the same kanji used when Japanese people discuss Aristotle; that would suggest they really did mean "metaphysical biology" rather than "metabiology."

Well, I Googled for "?????????????" and got nothing. Then, I have no idea what "metabiology" might be in kanji...

You may have been on to something when you said, "an established reality in the NGE universe." Besides the fact of it being made up of little paintings on cel sheets, EVA can now be considered an alternate history; not only because 2000 has passed, but because of the implications of the larger series. That is, if you have a world such as EVA's, where things like the Angels and the the Lance aren't just religious elements, but also real elements in a real war, then of course things such as "metaphysical biology" might exist as established sciences as well. In other words, EVANGELION shows things in many ways contrary to our understanding of science, so it's not unreasonable to suggest the laws of existence are different in EVA.

The irony is that you could say it's in OUR world that religion is just a "motif." In EVA's world, that attitude will get you smacked by the mighty tentacles of Shamshel or a two-tined fork run through your face.

[Reichu]

Thing is, I had a little pet theory I was rather fond of that "soul science" had been something secretly uncovered by Seele, its study and related technology kept away from the masses. Of course, there is nothing in the show to back this assertion up, aside from the fact that -- well, think about it. If souls were proven to be real phenomena within the dominion of science just like everything else, can you imagine the chaos that would ensue? Religion -- something some 90% of all human beings are said to have -- is based upon faith and the existence of things that canNOT be scientifically proven or observed.

It would seem rather odd to me if the world of NGE was one in which the fine line separating science and religion had been completely erased, and any old Joe could go to school to study the metabiology of souls... In such a world, would religion exist as we know it? And despite the lack of references to real religion in NGE, they are there: We see a Jinja in episode #03 (the sole reference to Shintou I have caught, yet another way in which NGE is a very weird anime) and a church in #16. Even a Gehirn scientist like Kyoko appeared to have Christian affiliations (re: her funeral at a church), and we hear Langley and the Frau-Doktor discussing what I would assume to be the Christian God. Religion would seem to be intact in NGE's world.

[AchtungAffen]

An evidence for the secret of soul science might be that the JA people didn't know about ATF's mechanic, but they did know about its existance.

[Dave]

If souls were proven to be real phenomena within the dominion of science just like everything else, can you imagine the chaos that would ensue?

Oshii Mamoru can. Just check out Ghost in the Shell.

[Mr. Tines]

Thing is, I had a little pet theory I was rather fond of that "soul science" had been something secretly uncovered by Seele, its study and related technology kept away from the masses.

While there are a lot of developments that could be kept as "open secrets", you're right, this is not one of them.

And despite the lack of references to real religion in NGE, they are there: We see a Jinja in episode #03 (the sole reference to Shintou I have caught, yet another way in which NGE is a very weird anime) and a church in #16.

Scanning my anime collection, I find far more Christian iconography than Shinto (Utena, for example) - perhaps it's the exotic "bells and smells" elements that appeal.

Even a Gehirn scientist like Kyoko appeared to have Christian affiliations (re: her funeral at a church), and we hear Langley and the Frau-Doktor discussing what I would assume to be the Christian God. Religion would seem to be intact in NGE's world.

I'm not sure if that quite follows - far, far more people use the church for marriages and funerals than attend regularly, at least in this country, where the established CoE is pretty close to institutionalised agnosticism. The Church is there as a provider of ceremony and ritual at certain critical life events, and you do have to work to do something apart from going with the flow - choosing a civil marriage ceremony can cause tutting from relatives; finding someone to conduct a humanist funeral is not so easy as nipping down to the vicarage.

[AchtungAffen]

What is a humanist funeral?

[Carl Horn]

What is a humanist funeral?

One where your tombstone reads, "All dressed up, and nowhere to go."

That's a very old joke

--C.