Passage of Time (EoE Final Scene)

[sephirotic]

Once again someon, Chrad, made my point in a short postage.

An interesting note of time problem:

Even if we considered that the blood expeled from GNR's carothida to be unrealistically fast (faster than escape velocity of earth: 12km/s) it would still take at least 8 hours to actually arrive at moon without considering desaceleration by earth's gravity... Yet, this happens in just a fell seconds after she starts to sucumb...

@Rafael
I disagree that Anno is "bad with physics", by the contrary, even for a scy-fi director, the knowledge Anno had to put up to create evangelion, with the consistense with see, is far superior to lots of other popular movie's directors and writers, but i hardly believe he would make such calculations, specially considering that we are taliking about an era pre-internet popularity, (1996)

(It only took me 30 seconds to find earth's escape velocity on wikipedia, however, in 1996 someone would probably have a GOOD book of astronomy laying around, otherwise leave for a library!)

About the blood flow of the Evas, considering how thin they are, i dare to say is actually possible to have an organic being of that size flowing blood correctly to it's extremities, (there were sauropods as extreme as 40meters long with over 100 metric tons in size) however the bigger problem would be the fact it its bipedal, wich would give to much stress to it's legs to support it's own body, not to mention how slow it would have to be to sustain it's own metabolism, but whatta hell, that is why there is the AT Field, it has to power to counter all that!

But i do agree that considering the moon stage to measure the passage of time is a little to pushy, who nows how much he would extent in calculating all these minor details... I'm not really that convinced...

[thewayneiac]

@sephirotic:

O.K., I think I understand what you are saying now. (At least I hope I have it right now.) You mean that before Anno would indicate the passage of a long period of time he would have to work something like like your scenario out in his own head? Even if he never planned on sharing it with us, he would want to know for his own reference exactly what Shinji did for all those months? And that somehow this would have modified Shinji's behavior in some noticible way? And you don't see the behavioral changes you would expect, therefore no time has passed?

I'm sorry, but that's just plain silly. We all agree that the impotant thing here is Shinji's reaction to Asuka's sudden appearence. It is totally irrelevant how Shinji survived or what he did or whether he stayed on the beach or left and came back. Anno shows us just one thing that Shinji did during the time that has passed; he dedicates a grave marker to Misato by nailing her cross to it. This tells us that this one action is the only thing Shinji did that Anno finds to be important. He is indicating that enough time has passed for Shinji to despair of other people returning and he has declared them dead.

It's simple why he stayed on the beach. His friends were nearby when everyone went splat, so he expects them to be nearby when they return. Leaving could make him miss them.

[Reichu]

Even if we considered that the blood expeled from GNR's carothida to be unrealistically fast (faster than escape velocity of earth: 12km/s) it would still take at least 8 hours to actually arrive at moon without considering desaceleration by earth's gravity... Yet, this happens in just a fell seconds after she starts to sucumb...

Reel time?

[sephirotic]

Reel time?

? o.o

@thewayniec

Not exactly on his head, but year, if it were relevant and important, them he would have at least writen some drafts for himself to organize the evolution of his mental changes...

Anyway I don´t really think is that silly, just like you said, the point of the Scene, is to show Shinji encoutering with Asuka for the first time after the 3I and how he reacts thus refleting his mental state/evolution, pos-instrumentality.

OFF: The instrumentality in my view would have the effect of a super endurance and tense 3-year analysis compressed in just about, a couple of hours (the timeframe around everything happend)

I'm defending that his reactions would have been much different if he had spent months in solitude (whatever the details of his survival may be, and not considering the more unrealistic it would seen he still be visiting/livingat that beach by that point ) he would have had time to elaborate a mourning and his boiling feelings towards her would already have passed/resolved... I doubt he would actually grab her so violently like that... And even if he would still hold some serious anger against her, he doesn´t show the reaction of someone surprised, unexpecting that someone would appear, (after all he would have waited for months), yet, when he looks at her, he looks numb like it was normal the fact that she returned to that place at that time,almost impling that they returned in a small time frame apart...

The passage of time DOES not justify his actions, by the contrary, would contradict, that is why i don´t see point in defending that months have passed,

but well i think i've finally passed all my view and i'm starting to repeat myself, but i get yours view to wayniac, however unfortunetely i can´t agree with yours predictions of Shinji behavior and mental evolution/dynamics, and this is something we can hardly empiric discuss about!

[Reichu]

? o.o

Just a pun. ("Reel time", as in movie reel, versus "real time".) Basically, events in film do not necessarily occur in the same time-space as real life. Film can slow things down or speed them up, split apart events that occurred simultaneously, etc. etc.

In addition to the principle of reel time, there is also the omnipresent Rule of Cool.

The blood spout probably happened faster than the laws of physics would allow because watching blood gush out of a giant carotid artery and spray-paint the moon is much more interesting and dramatic if it happens in a matter of seconds.

But I bet if Kubrick had directed, he would have made us watch the blood SLOWLY careen across the dark vacuum of space for a full eight minutes (to simulate the eight hours), accompanied by a sublimely silent soundtrack.

[sephirotic]

Ah, i'm familiar with such artistic excuses, even tough i don´t know much specific therms, especially in english, i however clearly know that the blood paiting the moon was intentionally "wrong", for a more dramatic effect, i gave the example exactly to try and remind how these "artistic excuses" are present in the Movie and we should start to relax about: "the moon phase changed to full, and there is rust in the nail so it should intricicaly as an evidence proves that 2 months passed".... And instead, admire how a full moon is more dramatic and has it own symbolism, and how the rust nail was just a touch of the painter of the background for that scene to look more impactant.

Well kubric's 2001, surely is a very nice mix of hard sci fi and art, it would be beautiful to see Blood cells slowly sublimating in the space while the iron starts to become a dark cooper redish dust ring around earth (more likely since it wouldn´t have enough momentum to reach moon's orbith =X)...

[Reichu]

I'm not sure it has to be "either/or". Filmmakers use the tools available to them. This can be distorting the laws of physics for an aesthetically dramatic scene. Perhaps oxidation and astronomical cycles are being manipulated for aesthetics, as well. However, I would not be so eager to pigeonhole as to overlook one of a filmmaker's greatest assets: visual storytelling.

And you may not be, but I don't think we're dealing with a clear-cut case here.

BTW, the rust wasn't just a flourish added by a background artist; it was specified when Anno et al. did the storyboards.

[sephirotic]

Indeed, one thing does not exclude other, eva is known to be an piece full ofsimbolism with all the multiple interpretations these simbolisms implies (not excluding realism visually and cientifically), but i was talking more about this final scene in particular, and of course, asking to be more loose with the literal interpretation wasn´t my only argument, the main one still is Shinji's behavior and mental state, even tough as i stated before, we could hardly debate it in an empirical way...

[Stuart]

Maybe Shinji was angry at Asuka because she took so long to come back?

[Rafael]

As someone who played with rusty nails occasionally while growing up (weird I know.) You can best get a rust trail like that from getting an already rusty nail wet and then trying to do stuff with it. To get a rust trail from an unrusted nail takes a very long time and lots of water. For the cross to get the trail it has it would have to be raining every other day for months to get that trail.

[Fazmotron]

By the water though, so salt water and sea spray accelerate the rusting process. </unhelpfulness>

[oOoOoOo]

And now, O-whatever birthsqueezes a wall of text on mental illness! Ah~ witness her words fall like cherry blossoms on an anxious wind!

I'd like to suggest Shinji's experiences in this scene can be understood from the perspective of mental illness. The whole series deals repeatedly with (usually trauma-induced) mental illness. Several scenes are rather accurate depictions of my bipolar experience (Asuka's mind-rape with the flashing images is exactly like a "mixed state"), but I'm thinking Shinji probably has PTSD and maybe a bajillion other overlapping disorders. (He does have flashbacks in the early episodes, concerning his first battle, that seem like a PTSD thing.) Most people get "shell shock" from far less dire things than serving as a child soldier in the apocalypse.

To clarify, I don't have PTSD, but I have been gripped by periods of extreme mental malfunction that lasted hours or days, and perception is a pretty shaky thing during those periods. But PTSD usually has overlap with other disorders, so that's the perspective I'm writing this post from. I'm also considering that Anno-san himself had depression, and thus might be thinking along the same lines as myself. So I'm focusing on Shinji's mental state and not all the space science stuff.

(So, what I'm saying doesn't have to contradict other theories of what is physically happening in the scene. My thoughts could mesh well with stuff that's already been said.)

If Shinji-kun WAS alone for a period of time, just how long?

The exact passage of time ultimately doesn't matter, but what does is how Shinji was alone for a long enough period to lose his grasp on reality (despite being back in it) ...

A lovey-dovey thank you to SSD-chan for stimulating my brain thingy! Shinji-kun would probably have little sense of time passing. In certain mental states, time can move pretty damn slowly. Minutes feel like hours.

When did he nail Misato's cross to that thing? That strikes me as irrelevant to understanding Shinji in this scene. He could have done that in a daze, in a completely different mental state. He might not even really remember doing it. With PTSD the brain doesn't always record your memories, so suddenly you lurch from one place to another, not remembering what you'd just been doing. Maybe he's been on the beach for half a day, but his brain's only recorded ten minutes of that.

Mental illness doesn't operate on a level where we can say it gets better or worse depending on how long he's been on the beach. After everything he's gone through (and considering he probably had a mental disorder before he even set foot in Nerv) it is really irrelevant. You can't say "every minute add another cup of crazy" or "every minute one ounce of sanity returns". This stuff doesn't work like that.

Considering where Shinji's mental state is now, time probably has absolutely no meaning to him.

... was Rei floating around as shown for awhile or what? Why was she there to begin with?

This reminds me of Rei showing up on the street in the first episode, while Shinji's on the green public phone. Regardless of the true nature of that vision, Shinji probably wrote it off as a hallucination.

When he sees her floating over the red sea, it probably only further divorces him from reality. It could be an "ordinary" hallucination. (Even if it isn't an "ordinary" hallucination, from Shinji's perspective it may as well be.) Considering everything he's experienced with Rei up to now, this sight could be pretty disturbing, especially if she's been lingering there for (what has been or what feels like) hours. Having people silently watch you isn't an uncommon hallucination. But is there a special meaning? With PTSD, trauma-related images return to you sometimes. It doesn't need to mean more than that.

Maybe it's just me, but the look on his face here seems to be one of "WTF? Am I really alive??"

SSD-chan talks about "confirmation of reality" in the thread's first post. Let's take a brief journey through Shinji's recent past.

1) Experience apocalypse where all of your closest friends die in the most mind-shattering way possible.
2) Experience communal mind-orgy of oneness that mixes flashbacks with batshit insane hallucinogenic dreamscapes.
3) Wake up on this shitty beach.

At this point, it is doubtful that he said, "Cool, I'm alive now and everything's normal! Look at this very ordinary landscape that is most certainly nothing like the hallucinogenic mind adventure I just took!" There's really no reason for him to believe he is alive, awake, or that anything he's experiencing is real. Even on a rational level I'd ask myself if the beach was real.

But on a mental health level, he's probably unable to figure much out right away. He could be in a very numb state, disassociated from himself. I've said in other threads that instrumentality might have been a very empathetic experience. That doesn't necessarily mean a comfortable experience, though. He could also be very hyper-sensitive. He might still be mulling over sensations from the recent mindfuckapalooza.

Whether or not Asuka shows up right away, I doubt he'd be all, "Finally, it's really Asuka!" He's seen her plenty of times in various scenarios during instrumentality. Isn't this Asuka just like those other ones?

Self-harm is associated with loads of mental disorders, and I used to cut myself for two reasons:
- To escape a torrent of negative thoughts, I could distract myself by focusing on the pain.
- If I was totally numb or feeling like things weren't "real", I could jolt myself "awake" with a strong sensation.

Both reasons could work for Shinji here, although instead of cutting himself he's grapping Asuka's throat. This could distract him from a head full of bad thoughts, or it could be a way to determine if this is real or not. Or all of the above! And now that I think about it, I've done similarly cruel things to people for the same reasons. It's about seeking out a real sensation.

Why does Shinji's expression when leaving the LCL Sea go from this ... to this in the final scene?

Hmm, maybe at first he's not really sure what's going on, probably in a dreamy transition from one sensation to another? And the wide eyes could reflect all the sights of the beach triggering flashbacks, memories, a rushing torrent of bad thoughts...?

But I think it is a bit futile trying to figure out what exactly he's feeling based on his expressions in this scene. He's certainly experiencing some profound, overwhelming things. I sympathize with him in this scene not because I know exactly what he's feeling (maybe even Anno-san doesn't know), but I feel like I understand having my mind similarly ravaged.

Anyway, that's my take on all this.

[Sailor Star Dust]

I think you make some really excellent points on how because Shinji probably does have some form of PTSD (Asuka too?), he would be rattled mentally/physically and not thinking straight. The passage of time ultimately doesn't matter, but Shinji's mental state and the fact he was alone to begin with (even if it was only 2 weeks) is probably part of the reason why he reacted so strongly to Asuka... But what happened between them in Instrumentality doesn't help matters.

Although I think that Rei showing up in the first episode and final episode is meant to demonstrate that Lilith has become Rei, Lilith is watching over humanity/Shinji in particular, time isn't liner for Lilith.

[Stuart]

Yeah, time's not linear for Lilith/Rei, so why would this also not be the case for Adam/Kaworu? Hence the sequel-type stuff he says in Rebuild, and the fact that Rei cares more about Shinji earlier on in Rebuild.

[Rafael]

Yeah, time's not linear for Lilith/Rei, so why would this also not be the case for Adam/Kaworu? Hence the sequel-type stuff he says in Rebuild, and the fact that Rei cares more about Shinji earlier on in Rebuild.

Where is this lack of temporal linearity shown in the series? This is news to me.

[Shin-seiki]

Where is this lack of temporal linearity shown in the series? This is news to me.

The Rei that appears to Shinji at the beginning of #01 and at the end of EoE seems to exist beyond the normal constraints of time and space; also note how Rei appears by Misato and Ritsuko as they die in #25', yet Rei doesn't return to Lilith (and presumably assumes god-like powers) until #26'.

[Chrad]

The Rei that appears to Shinji at the beginning of #01 and at the end of EoE seems to exist beyond the normal constraints of time and space; also note how Rei appears by Misato and Ritsuko as they die in #25', yet Rei doesn't return to Lilith (and presumably assumes god-like powers) until #26'.

Yeah. If Rei/Lilith is 'the existence that gazes upon humanity' (thanks for that Shin-seiki!) then it makes sense that she's always been there and always will be.

[thewayneiac]

Yeah. If Rei/Lilith is 'the existence that gazes upon humanity' (thanks for that Shin-seiki!) then it makes sense that she's always been there and always will be.

Yes, and the fact that she appears as Rei proves that she has effectively become Rei. The Evangelion definition of "self" is that we are defined by our relationships with others.

[Chrad]

Yes, and the fact that she appears as Rei proves that she has effectively become Rei. The Evangelion definition of "self" is that we are defined by our relationships with others.

I Need You in order to be Me.
Sorry, I just wanted to say that.

[Stuart]

The bookend Rei is, in the words of the book of Revelation, the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end.