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For serious and at times in-depth discussions only, covering the original TV series, the movies End of Evangelion and Death & Rebirth.

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Postby K2Grey » Wed Feb 01, 2006 5:42 pm

DatDude wrote:Because no detail about their gender is given anydamn place. It could just as easly by said they are male and just brought their eggs to earth to hatch.


Kaworu refers to Adam as the mother figure of the Angels. Lilith quite clearly has LCL coming out of her midsection, which does not occur with males. Lilith is also the mother figure for humanity, and LCL bears a very strong resemblance to the primordial soup of life. It's quite clear that humanity did not arise from eggs, so the idea that Lilith brought eggs along from somewhere is incorrect.

In general, Adam and Lilith are portrayed as being sources of life, with all other life being their offspring. And this corresponds better with them being mothers than with them being male, seeing how giving birth to offspring is generally reserved for females.

Edit: I think that in your haste to backlash against overanalysis of NGE that you are going too far and putting too much emotional investment into the issue. At this point in time, I wonder if, for example, the asking of plot clarification questions, or the sketching out of accepted theories like Eva-01 arising from Lilith, would not be met with a response like "FOR GODS SAKE WHO CARES IT'S AN ANIME AND NGE IS NOT ABOUT ANALYZING THE SERIES, GO OUTSIDE AND SEE THE SUN!!"

It's true that Anno did not necessarily think everything through, that he changed the plot halfway through, and that he would not necessarily be pleased for people to spend great amounts of time analyzing the motivations of characters and so forth. But he clearly put considerable time into figuring out what happened behind the scenes, so to speak, and it's reasonable for people to try to figure out what did happen behind the scenes, by putting together what we do see in order to determine the unseeable. I don't see what's wrong with that.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Wed Feb 01, 2006 5:49 pm

DatDude wrote:YOUR telling me all the fuss over this damn game IS A DOCUMENT THAT SHORT!


That's the page linked as "secret information" on the cover page (linked back to from the cited page); whether there are any tid-bits in the rest of that site, I've not attempted to look.
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Postby DatDude » Wed Feb 01, 2006 6:03 pm

@K2Grey

I protest overanalysis of NGE not analysis, and yes I know the diffrence. You can't understand this show with out a bit of analysis, and people that have been here as long as I have know I've done my fair share.

It easy to confuse as I hate what I call " outside sources ". By that I mean anything nor found in the NGE anime eps 1-26 renewal or the two movies.

Everything else tends to confuse the issue at times.

Anno made an anime, and he made one people could watch and understand with a bit of effort.

Looking as original scripts ( that could have been changed in production ), unproduced scenes ( that were left out for a reason ), and other projects ( Like the manga, or the video games. ) just get in the way.

The original work must stand alone, or its not worth a thing.

Im sorry is I lose my temper over this but I get tired of hearing people quote this other stuff like its somthing in scene one of episode four. :roll:
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Postby Phoenix Feet » Wed Feb 01, 2006 6:54 pm

K2Grey wrote:Kaworu refers to Adam as the mother figure of the Angels. Lilith quite clearly has LCL coming out of her midsection, which does not occur with males. Lilith is also the mother figure for humanity, and LCL bears a very strong resemblance to the primordial soup of life. It's quite clear that humanity did not arise from eggs, so the idea that Lilith brought eggs along from somewhere is incorrect.

In general, Adam and Lilith are portrayed as being sources of life, with all other life being their offspring. And this corresponds better with them being mothers than with them being male, seeing how giving birth to offspring is generally reserved for females.


The part of this that doesn't work for me, is if they are supposed to be one given gender, why aren't they portrayed like that physically? They both have male bodies.

I don't think Adam or Lillith NEED specific genders. They don't need to have sex to reproduce the way we do (never thought I'd be giving this talk so early...). So why would they need to be a particular human gender?

The way I see it, they are beings without gender. The only reason the human characters use female nouns to describe them is because they are the words we have that best describe their function.

EDIT: See, this is what I meant by balancing author's intent with the evidnece (that's a bad word) in the text.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Wed Feb 01, 2006 7:06 pm

Phoenix Feet wrote:The part of this that doesn't work for me, is if they are supposed to be one given gender, why aren't they portrayed like that physically? They both have male bodies.


I'm interested to know what the psychological resistance to the concept that they might be female is based upon, let alone the assertion that they have male bodies. The lack of swollen mammae, perhaps? But that is something not shown outside of lactation by other mammalian species.

OK, Reichu's additional speech-balloon hammers the point home here, but Gainax really couldn't have been any more explicit within existing taboos about the source of LCL than this.

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Postby Phoenix Feet » Wed Feb 01, 2006 7:18 pm

Mr. Tines wrote: I'm interested to know what the psychological resistance to the concept that they might be female is based upon, let alone the assertion that they have male bodies. The lack of swollen mammae, perhaps? But that is something not shown outside of lactation by other mammalian species.


-Straight up-and-down frames, ie. female hips curve
-Large pectorals rather than breasts (this is mroe visible in renewal)

Why do you describe it as "psychological resistance", like it's some sort of subconcious thing? It's just seems the most logical conclusion to me.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Wed Feb 01, 2006 7:31 pm

Phoenix Feet wrote:-Straight up-and-down frames, ie. female hips curve
-Large pectorals rather than breasts (this is mroe visible in renewal)


Not characteristics of creatures such as chimps, who are about as genetically close to us as the Angels are supposed to be.

Phoenix Feet wrote:Why do you describe it as "psychological resistance", like it's some sort of subconcious thing? It's just seems the most logical conclusion to me.


That Adam and Lilith are female is not so much logical as explicit - their entire narrative function is maternal. I'm just trying to figure out why the obvious is not being apparent.

I exaggerate - but only slightly - in saying that the whole show is about getting over the urge to return to the womb, with mothers and the mother/child relationship being everywhere.

[code:1]Shinji: Thank you, my father.
Good-bye, my mother.
And to the all the children,
Congratulations![/code:1]
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Postby Defectron » Wed Feb 01, 2006 8:41 pm

Well as I mentioned somewhere else I think that the closest known gender that would correspond with Adam and Lillith would be hermaphroditic. I don't feel like going into my reasons for believing this again here, if anyone wants to know I'll look around for the thread that I said that in and post my reasoning here.
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Postby Phoenix Feet » Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:23 am

Mr. Tines wrote:That Adam and Lilith are female is not so much logical as explicit - their entire narrative function is maternal. I'm just trying to figure out why the obvious is not being apparent.


I've explained why I think they are genderless. They can spawn offspring without the participation of others. This can allow them to be mothers without specifically being female.

I think at this point we're splitting hairs, and I hope we can agree to disagree. And to be honest, I don't really like being told I've got a mental condition because otherwise I'd agree with you.

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Postby DatDude » Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:18 am

Does anyone here think Anno and company put this much effort into this subject? :lol:
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Postby SEELE 08 » Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:25 am

Anno and company didn't put to much effort into it, but the otaku sure did.
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Postby DatDude » Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:41 am

SEELE 08 wrote:Anno and company didn't put to much effort into it, but the otaku sure did.


This sould be on a EVA bumpersticker.

+10 geek point to you Seele
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Postby SEELE 08 » Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:47 am

DatDude wrote:
SEELE 08 wrote:Anno and company didn't put to much effort into it, but the otaku sure did.


This sould be on a EVA bumpersticker.

+10 geek point to you Seele


Yay! Today I came back from class (I have a life outsideof EVA/internet unlike some people at ANF) to find that I was being baited into another flame war! Yay, wait no.....another flame war would be a waste of my time. At least that's what I told Reichu.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:07 pm

SEELE 08 wrote:Anno and company didn't put to much effort into it, but the otaku sure did.


Think of it as cooking. It's easy enough to grab a pinch of this and a dash of that when you're putting something together; it's more difficult to work out while you're eating the meal what went into the seasoning.

Anno-tachi could take a theme out of "Doc" Smith, and a motif out of Larry Niven, and a gratuitous nod to PKD (actually, that was in Gunbuster...) - and it's up to us to extract the strains.
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Postby Ornette » Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:07 pm

DatDude wrote:Oh for the love of . . .

YOUR telling me all the fuss over this damn game IS A DOCUMENT THAT SHORT!

People go one like its page after page of information, but its shorted them my damn fan fic.

I very much want this game to be forgoten first thing that needs to happin to do that is to de mistify the damn thing.

How many Japanese readers we got on this board?

I say we get two or three of them together and translate this thing. That way we can all make up our own minds about it, and those that try to use this info to back up weird ass thoeries will lose their ace in the hole.

I've already been working with someone else on a translation, which is almost done and needs another quick pass. Reichu is also working on bits and I'll send what I have to her after I'm done.

To say the least, there's some pretty interesting info in this thing, some of which counter what a lot of people have accepted about the show.

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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:49 pm

Ornette wrote:To say the least, there's some pretty interesting info in this thing, some of which counter what a lot of people have accepted about the show.


Countering our misconceptions is fine. But if this document flatly contridicts the show, a la the Red Cross Book, then I forsee huge schizm and debates emerging. Incidently, is all this really written by Anno?
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Postby Ornette » Fri Feb 03, 2006 7:00 pm

ObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:Countering our misconceptions is fine.

This is what I meant.

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Postby Defectron » Fri Feb 03, 2006 7:04 pm

Well all I really know about that stuff in the videogame is that it says that adam and lillith come from space or something like that. But what other stuff is in it that counters what a lot of people think about the show? I'd be curious to see what other information you dug up.
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Postby DatDude » Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:05 pm

ObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:
Ornette wrote:To say the least, there's some pretty interesting info in this thing, some of which counter what a lot of people have accepted about the show.


Countering our misconceptions is fine. But if this document flatly contridicts the show, a la the Red Cross Book, then I forsee huge schizm and debates emerging. Incidently, is all this really written by Anno?


They supposdly inteview anno, and im not sure but it could have been over the phone.

I asked for evadence he was even involved from the start and have seen none.

I'm starting to thing this is like how Anno " directed Re: Cutie Honey "
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Postby Defectron » Fri Feb 03, 2006 10:21 pm

Well he sort of directed co-directed it with three other guys.
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