Could somebody help me understand a few things?

[zuka]

So I've just finished watching NGE and really enjoyed it, but it started to bug me how little I seem to know about the implied machinations behind the show's main narratives.

This is what I (think I) know:

1. Adam's seed landed on Earth.
2. Lilith's seed also did.
3. Adam got frozen by his spear of longinus, as Lilith's was destroyed and two seeds were not allowed to co-exist on the same planet.
4. Lilith created the conditions allowing life to begin on Earth.
5. Fast forward a few billion years and Adam was awakened by the Katsuragi expedition, causing Second Impact, which was not as bad as it could have been... for some reason.

Questions:
a: Where the fuck do the Angels come from?

b: Why the fuck do the Angels want to start Third Impact? Is it so they can "reset" Earth and have Adam's progeny as the dominant race?

c: Human Instrumentality, as I understand it, is Seele's plan to unite all human souls into one hyper-never-lonely-being. What was their design for achieving this and how does Gendou's differ? How is instrumentality different from the Third Impact? Basically, why didn't they just let Sachiel go and do whatever he needed to do and then it'd be mission accomplished, hyper-never-lonely-being?

Sorry if this stuff seems elemental to you guys, but these things have never really been clear to me. I know that a lot about Eva is supposed to be mysterious, but I don't get the fundamentals of what's supposed to be going on.

Anyway, if anybody could help a noob, that'd be great

Cheers,

Zuka

[zuka]

I've read the wiki extensively and was hoping some of the members here - who are very familiar with the terminology and concepts discussed in those documents - would be able to help me out with some of the concepts I am struggling to understand.

If your attitude to me asking questions about Evangelion is "it's just an anime", I'd suggest you're prooobably in the wrong forum.

(Thanks, Ed. Appreciate the response. I assume the Black Sea scrolls contain caviar recipes and can be found somewhere in central Asia.)

[toe mash]

a: Where the fuck do the Angels come from?

It's one of those big gaping unanswered questions in the series, similar to why the pilots have to be 14 (Misato or Ritsuko literally saying "You KNOW they have to be 14" doesn't count, also just because it's a must for the theme doesn't either..). There isn't any real concrete answer for both, the only reason is because they're a staple of the genre and no one asks question etc.

b: Why the fuck do the Angels want to start Third Impact? Is it so they can "reset" Earth and have Adam's progeny as the dominant race?

More or less. They don't want to/can't co-exist with humans, so they wanna start third impact and make earth a planet suitable for angels instead of humans that had to be assholes and ruin it.

c: Human Instrumentality, as I understand it, is Seele's plan to unite all human souls into one hyper-never-lonely-being. What was their design for achieving this and how does Gendou's differ? How is instrumentality different from the Third Impact? Basically, why didn't they just let Sachiel go and do whatever he needed to do and then it'd be mission accomplished, hyper-never-lonely-being?

Gendo just wants to unite with unit-01 somehow with Rei's help and meet Yui again (her soul being in unit-01), his wish is concurrent for the most part with Seele's plan so he played along with them and only tried to betray them at the very end, only to have Rei cross him and give the choice to Shinji. They couldn't just let Sachiel initiate 3I or all the humans would be wiped out. First of all all the angels have to die anyway.

For nearly every question about NGE there are multiple answers, none of them is the "right" one. So even for what seems like a simple question you can get a host of different takes on the issue from the fanbase.

[NemZ]

a: Where the fuck do the Angels come from?

Adam made several eggs befor or durring 2I and they just took about 15 years to hatch.

b: Why the fuck do the Angels want to start Third Impact? Is it so they can "reset" Earth and have Adam's progeny as the dominant race?

Some of them probably want that to happen, yes, but we don't really know what their individual motivations are.

c: Human Instrumentality, as I understand it, is Seele's plan to unite all human souls into one hyper-never-lonely-being. What was their design for achieving this and how does Gendou's differ? How is instrumentality different from the Third Impact? Basically, why didn't they just let Sachiel go and do whatever he needed to do and then it'd be mission accomplished, hyper-never-lonely-being?

That's a tricky bit. Basically 3rd Impact is a generic term for 'some big world-changing shit is happening', but there are several different potential things that could qualify, each with their own requirements. While it isn't 100% clear, it seems that even ignoring the angels' ideas on the matter we have several possibilities to sort through:

1. Combine everyone into a single 'perfect' being.
2. Remove the ATF barriers and create a sort of gestalt/colony of individual souls.
3. A select few people usurp the power of the seeds and essentially become gods.
4. Create a new seed of life with both fruits and set out to colonize a new planet.
5. Blow up the world without really accomplishing much of anything.

[Jessemon]

Questions:
a: Where the fuck do the Angels come from?

According to the show? Adam. Where does Adam come from? Who knows (according to just the show)...

b: Why the fuck do the Angels want to start Third Impact? Is it so they can "reset" Earth and have Adam's progeny as the dominant race?

I BELIEVE (it's been a little while) that the idea is that if any of the angels were to make contact with Adam (or Lilith, or both, who knows) that they would initiate 3I, which means that everything on the planet would die, and then that particular angel would become the dominate "species" of the planet.

c: Human Instrumentality, as I understand it, is Seele's plan to unite all human souls into one hyper-never-lonely-being. What was their design for achieving this and how does Gendou's differ? How is instrumentality different from the Third Impact? Basically, why didn't they just let Sachiel go and do whatever he needed to do and then it'd be mission accomplished, hyper-never-lonely-being?

From what I understand, if Seele let just any angel make contact with Adam and/or Lilith, then humankind would be essentially wiped out of existence (inb4whatdoesitmeantoexistanyways). Seele wanted to wipe out all of the angels and then initiate 3I themselves, which would essentially return all of mankind back to its evolutionary beginning (aka, LCL/primordial soup). Gendo just wanted to be with Yui again, so his plan was essentially to initiate 3I himself in order to have a say in what happened. Fortunately/unfortunately, neither really happened.

[Reichu]

Jessemon, it looks at a glance like you're just quoting the whole post instead of replying to it. The "bold text inside quoted post" thing is really confusing, and it makes it more difficult for people to reply to anything you've written. Would you be able to use "normal" formatting (see: just about anyone else's posts) for your replies in the future?

[AuraTwilight]

a: Where the fuck do the Angels come from?

Adam gave birth to the other Angels when it woke up at Second Impact, basically. Adam and Lilith were created by a "First Ancestral Race" that sent them out to populate other planets and preserve the essence of "humanity." You could say the FAR are "gods", and the Seeds and their children are the Angels ("messengers"), with the message being "Life must go on."

b: Why the fuck do the Angels want to start Third Impact? Is it so they can "reset" Earth and have Adam's progeny as the dominant race?

Basically, but considering that they're effectively children, the Angels are probably thinking "Mommy, where are you?"

c: Human Instrumentality, as I understand it, is Seele's plan to unite all human souls into one hyper-never-lonely-being. What was their design for achieving this and how does Gendou's differ? How is instrumentality different from the Third Impact? Basically, why didn't they just let Sachiel go and do whatever he needed to do and then it'd be mission accomplished, hyper-never-lonely-being?

If an angel fuses with Adam and revives it, all of Lilith's children are destroyed and Angels populate the planet.

If Gendo fuses his hand with Rei's boob, he can basically go inside Unit 01 to be with Yui forever. What happens to the rest of humanity is debatable, but Gendo arguably doesn't give a shit.

If Adam and Lilith fuse together and all that stuff, all of humanity is fused into a superbeing. Arguable on whether or not this is a good thing.

[MasterRah]

Did you see End Of Evangelion yet?

[Jessemon]

Jessemon, it looks at a glance like you're just quoting the whole post instead of replying to it. The "bold text inside quoted post" thing is really confusing, and it makes it more difficult for people to reply to anything you've written. Would you be able to use "normal" formatting (see: just about anyone else's posts) for your replies in the future?

Apologies. It's a bad habit I picked up from a couple pokemon boards I use to post in where everyone did that (out of convenience) even though we all knew no one else did, haha.

I'll change it though...

[TehDonutKing]

First of all, the video game “Neon Genesis Evangelion 2” had “Classified Information” that was supposed to clear up every last mystery and make the series [s]boring[/s] comprehensible. Despite the game being an alternate universe, everyone takes the Classified Information seriously because Anno was involved. Because anything Anno is involved in is automatically canon, even if it blatantly contradicts the series itself. Even if we have no idea what his involvement was, ranging from writing it himself, to saying, “Yeah, nice theories.” It's that kind of thinking that causes people to think Rebuild is a sequel.

SPOILER: Show

It's not.

Anyway, here are the answers from the show itself, without any of the bullcell from the CI. Parts in bold are my theorising, parts in italics are from the CI, in case you care about it.

A) The Angels come from Adam. The Lilin come from Lilith.
The Classified Information purports that Adam and Lilith were sent by the “First Ancestral Race”. Apparently Lilith was supposed to go to Mars.
But this leaves the problem of where the FAR came from. Basically, this explains nothing and only further complicates things.

B) Yes.

C) Angel Instrumentality: See B.
Gendou Instrumentality: He wants to reunite with Yui using Adam, Lilith, and Rei.
25 and 26 were Gendou's Instrumentality, and the end of 26 was Shinji returning from Instrumentality and seeing that his friends and family had been revived, healed, and they had resolved their issues before returning.
Seele: Something like the Pre-3I Instrumentality, but permanent.

[Reichu]

Donut: Aren't there better places to vent your CI-rage? :p

The Classified Information purports that Adam and Lilith were sent by the “First Ancestral Race”. Apparently Lilith was supposed to go to Mars.

It doesn't say "Mars" anywhere.

But this leaves the problem of where the FAR came from. Basically, this explains nothing and only further complicates things.

They came from a planet in the Milky Way that has since been wiped off the map. Not sure what the problem is.

I get the impression that you're not that familiar with what you're lambasting as "inconsistent with the series", etc. etc.

[zuka]

Thanks very much for all of the responses - I'm pleased to find out that there are multiple outcomes/definitions for Third Impact/Instrumentality, it makes me feel slightly less retarded for getting confused.

I like the idea of an advanced alien race seeding life - it might be becoming a little cliche, but it's less trite than expecting the audience to accept that "there are just giant monsters".

MasterRah: I did see EoE five or six years ago, but I don't really have any desire to see it again. I remember it being an incredibly uncomfortable and upsetting film, which only served to further complicate things. I'm much happier with "Congratulations" than strangulation/ambiguous last line.

Reading through the thread dealing with episode 24, I don't really understand what Kaowrou's role in the series was.

a. He was sent to NERV by Seele, who somehow had access to arguably the most powerful angel.
b. He tried to initiate third impact by merging with Adam, only to discover Adam was Lilith.
c. He then gave up and decided to die. Why not go find Adam, who Seele had told him was fused with Gendou?
d. What did Seele have to gain by risking Third Impact? Did Kaowrou's death only further their plan in the sense that all the Angels had to die before their version of Instrumentality was to take place?

[TehDonutKing]

Sorry, I haven't read it in a while. I could've sworn Mars was mentioned, though.
What I meant was that LOLaliens only adds a pointless twist. It's like when people say that life on Earth began with alien bacteria, but they don't explain how the bacteria came to be. It makes just as much sense to say that Adam and Lilith originated on Earth, or, God forbid, are the mythological Adam and Lilith. And I'm pretty sure that an explanation of the CI was in order, and I hoped someone would later post something to support the CI so our friend here would hear arguements from both sides.

EDIT: Admir! Ninja'd! This post was supposed to be directed at Reichu, everyone's favourite psychopath.

[Monk Ed]

What I meant was that LOLaliens only adds a pointless twist. It's like when people say that life on Earth began with alien bacteria, but they don't explain how the bacteria came to be. It makes just as much sense to say that Adam and Lilith originated on Earth, or, God forbid, are the mythological Adam and Lilith.

What is up with people saying this all the time? The CI basically exists for the purpose of revealing all the answers to the questions that didn't matter, because obsessive fans kept pestering them about them. And then people have the nerve to complain that these revelations don't add much to the story? That's why they weren't included in the first place!

[Reichu]

Monk Ed: Not just the CI; some of the 'answers' are revealed in-game, as well. For example, a lot of the stuff we now know about the FAR and the Seeds is from a big info dump in one of Kaworu's endings. And neat little tidbits and intimations are scattered throughout: e.g., Kaworu stating that Angel corpses don't decompose; the souls of the Angels being present after GNR does her thing; Hikari mentioning her father in casual conversation.

[MasterRah]

MasterRah: I did see EoE five or six years ago, but I don't really have any desire to see it again. I remember it being an incredibly uncomfortable and upsetting film, which only served to further complicate things. I'm much happier with "Congratulations" than strangulation/ambiguous last line.

Well that IS everything that's happening outside of their minds. I understand how upsetting it can be towards certain people, but I found it a really uplifting film. Besides, everyone can come back from instrumentality. Plus, it looks like Asuka, and Shinji was alright for a little while staring at Rei/Lillith's dead body before more people came back.

SPOILER: Show

[Sachi]

MasterRah: I did see EoE five or six years ago, but I don't really have any desire to see it again. I remember it being an incredibly uncomfortable and upsetting film, which only served to further complicate things. I'm much happier with "Congratulations" than strangulation/ambiguous last line.

Would it upset you to know that EoE is the GOOD END, in contrast with EoTV's BAD END?*

* Good and bad, as in, one is a happy ending while the other isn't, though it is somewhat subjective.

[symbv]

Would it upset you to know that EoE is the GOOD END, in contrast with EoTV's BAD END?*

* Good and bad, as in, one is a happy ending while the other isn't, though it is somewhat subjective.

Rather, EoTV is the incomplete end given what came up in EoE later....

I remember it being an incredibly uncomfortable and upsetting film

Very much so. And unlike many I did not see the uplifting part of it. The only uplifting part is the tiny beam of hope that things *might* right themselves but we are not even sure whether Asuka and Shinji got along after EoE....

[zuka]

Good and bad as in EoTV is the end of mankind and EoE allows people to resume their physical form if they have the will to do so?

I'm just gonna have to grow some balls and watch EoE again. I don't so much find the whole third impact/whateverthehell GNR starts that upsetting, but I really have difficulty stomaching the JSSDF's massacre of the NERV personnel.

[Sachi]

I don't watch EoE because it uplifts me—well, it does, but let me explain. EoE is so terribly depressing that it makes me so fucking happy. I get a huge hard on out of seeing my favorite characters utterly destroyed, ripped apart, and licked to the bone, both literally and analytically. Depressing shit turns me on.

I do suggest you give EoE another go. Other than the raw plotline, there's so much depth and an seemingly endless amount of potential material to analyze and interpret in a seemingly endless amount of ways. It's a art fag's wet dream; just ask EvaYojimbo.