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Postby GreggHL » Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:36 pm

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:GreggHL: When you say that you're taking the Ree's powers from the charmtrees, does that mean the Ree have all the same powers, or each has moved into their own 'specialty?' If that's a spoiler you don't want to reveal, then that's bene, but it got me curious.


It's a mix. For example, Hatchi basically is a Solar. Her abilities are all a result of her being dedicated to training, learning, practicing. Every scene so far where she's physically fought someone- including Rei- she has whupped their ass. But not through things like hitting them with AT Fields or hacking reality. She is basically an extremely skilled, extremely dedicated martial artist who nonetheless has some superhuman powers. It's also the visuals.

For example, in Chapter 9, Hatchi does the equivalent of Soaring Crane Leap- she stamps the ground, which causes it to explode around her as a result of her launching herself into the air. A lot of her more superhuman attacks are based on Solar Hero Style charms- she even shouts one out as Heaven Thunder Hammer. Not that she's actually a Solar- she just is using her own AT field-based abilities to simulate this because she more closely identifies herself with this god-kings from the game she plays with Hikari and her sisters.

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:20 pm

I love it! Now all I can think of are the Ree as a super-sentai team.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Postby Grand Duke of Yashima » Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:30 pm

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:Grand Duke...I kind of want to refer to you as 'Your Grace.' Is that okay?)


Dude, Duke is just fine. I got that title from The EVA Imperialist some years ago.

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:That's not a bad approach. And it is true, that gardening with too many threads is a handful. There are some people that seem to be able to do it, though: just something in their brain clicks when they have multiple threads running. I have no clue how they do it, but I'd love to know the trick...


If you have a story with multiple narratives it's bloody difficult to line up everything. I'll give a good example from one of my own. In Blue Rose #2, about 2/3 through the book, I've got about five or six separate storylines running simultaneously. This is because the story is set during EOE and you've got different players on all sides of a three-front battle between NERV, SEELE, and the Alliance. On top of that this is a story that is riding on top of EOE, and so not only do sequences have to coincide with each other, they have to also fit within the EOE storyline itself. It took a lot of careful planning to sequence everything.

What I ended up doing was writing each strand as a separate narrative on its own, saving them in their own file. Then I had one master strand that I then pasted the script of EOE into, and then edited out the parts that weren't relevant to my story. Then strand by strand I cut and pasted each section into the master strand, occasionally moving segments up or down the storyline in order to line it all up. Everything was scheduled, using a single event in the master narrative (in this case it was when Rei starts to go GNR) as a fixed point in time so that I could work the pacing. I likened it to the workings of a coo-coo clock, where you've got all of these odd gears running but everything still has to go off when the hands hit 12:00.

While that's basically the Architect approach, if the separate strands were too short to fit into the schedule and didn't pace that segment well, I had to sort of fill in parts in order to match the length of the others. So in the end I did a bit of gardening as well.
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Postby Gob Hobblin » Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:11 am

I can see that it works with the Blue Rose series, which is definitely in the top of the Eva fics overall. I do like that approach: in a way, it allows one to play to strengths (whether as a full on planner or a more improvisational writer) while still allowing for some structure, regardless of which way you move. You have to be willing to do a bit of each, but it seems to allow you to move further into one or the other without deviating so far that you've hit the major flaws either style has (too overplanned and rigid, or too off-the-rails and deviant).

Thanks for the layout. I'll be saving that post in consideration of the next fic I have in the works. :D
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Postby Grand Duke of Yashima » Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:29 am

At the end of things I'm probably in the Architect school, but actually find Gardening more fun if you can pull it off. It's probably better as sort of a "I've got to put in a filler chapter, just pick an idea and go with it" approach. In Blue Rose #3 the chapter where the three girl pilots all share a (cramped) bedroom for a night was pure Gardening.

If you've got a complicated narrative and want to break it out to manageable pieces, I've got a system that helps. Separate out each individual narrative strand into a document and give it a code. Then create the master narrative as a separate file. In the master narrative if you outline, you can post the outline points there and then work on each detached stream separately.

Ideally in the detached files you're writing several segments at once so that way you can watch the flow of the plot better, but each scene gets its own number. Then in the master file you paste in the code numbers of all of the different detached streams in sequence. This gives you a quick idea of how the flow actually works and if you have to move scenes back and forth along the timeline, or if you need to add more action in a particular detached stream, or maybe cut back. Finally you paste in each scene in sequence and then read it back for flow, making tweaks until it's set.

The code system I use works something like this

AS012:
A = Story Arc (A is first, B second, etc)
S = Segment Code (S is for Shinji if he's the lead in the segment. I'd use A or R or K or whoever depending on who's in the scene)
012 = Scene number, in sequence.

Each scene has its own code and then all of that goes into the narrative like a schedule of events. It seems complicated but if you have more than two plot streams it works to keep things manageable.
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Postby shelter » Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:45 am

Interrupting the architect & gardener discussion for some NGE fics recs. They are culled from a handful of public Livejournals, and in my opinion are the best few hosted on that site. All of them are one-shots.

    - and everything we've lost disappears, by feast - Shinji/Rei, Shinji/Kaworu, Kaji/Asuka. Gorgeous story about unfulfilled relationships told in 24 vignettes.

    - Reach, by Genkyoku - A short Asuka/Kaworu fragment, with Kaworu in Shinji's place at the end of EOE.

    - Wednesday's Child, by Lavanya Six - Somehow this isn't on Lavanya Six's FF.net profile. Not her best story, but the premise behind this is: what if Gendo manufactured the Third Child the way he did with the First?

    - Between the bars, by koneko_zero - A Hyuuga/Misato gem. There are very few stories that use Hyuuga Makoto's POV. This has a good chance of being one of the best of them.

    - Good or don't be, by nothingbutfic - Sort of multidimensional Kaworu/Shinji fic. Can be compared to a condensed version of TGP's Maybe.

Most of the fics on LJ are Kaworu/Shinji and/or very short drabbles that might be a bit brief for most. For Kaworu/Shinji fans, here is a list of fic recommendations that includes download links in the comments to fics that are no longer on FF.net. Haven't read through them yet.

Sadly, the only regular updater of NGE fics on LJ/DW now seems to be bonnefois.

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Postby Muphrid » Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:26 pm

View Original PostGrand Duke of Yashima wrote:If you've got a complicated narrative and want to break it out to manageable pieces, I've got a system that helps. Separate out each individual narrative strand into a document and give it a code. Then create the master narrative as a separate file. In the master narrative if you outline, you can post the outline points there and then work on each detached stream separately.

Ideally in the detached files you're writing several segments at once so that way you can watch the flow of the plot better, but each scene gets its own number. Then in the master file you paste in the code numbers of all of the different detached streams in sequence. This gives you a quick idea of how the flow actually works and if you have to move scenes back and forth along the timeline, or if you need to add more action in a particular detached stream, or maybe cut back. Finally you paste in each scene in sequence and then read it back for flow, making tweaks until it's set.

The code system I use works something like this

AS012:
A = Story Arc (A is first, B second, etc)
S = Segment Code (S is for Shinji if he's the lead in the segment. I'd use A or R or K or whoever depending on who's in the scene)
012 = Scene number, in sequence.

Each scene has its own code and then all of that goes into the narrative like a schedule of events. It seems complicated but if you have more than two plot streams it works to keep things manageable.


This strikes me as a good way to develop a story in parallel, especially if you're good at coming up with ideas for scenes but need to find some way to make them all fit together in a cohesive unit.


I do things somewhat differently these days. In stories with several POV characters, I try to give each character a chapter to themselves on a rotating basis. This gives me the opportunity to do concentrated development and to make the whole chapter focus on a particular aspect of the character that I want that character to realize, confront, and ultimately decide to change about themselves.

Sometimes I reorder chapters then based on who might best provide a POV for the plot stuff that's going on at the time, or who might best connect personally to what's going on. Another downside is that by focusing so much on one character at a time, characters tend to float in and out of the narrative, and you might not see someone in particular for long stretches. One of the things I want to do in the future is to come up with a structure that allows rotating scene by scene but still allows for the razor-sharp thematic focus that one character per chapter provides.

And sometimes I break the rule of one character per chapter if there's just too much going on in too many different places. In addition, I feel it would probably be a benefit to me to do more parallel development like Duke has discussed.

On the Architect vs. Gardener scale, I think I come in more toward the Architect in, but I try to leave some room in place. Before I actually start working on a specific chapter, I may have a few sentences or a paragraph detailing what I want to do, and perhaps some ideas for scenes, but I try to avoid a point-by-point outline down to the last detail until I'm writing a particular scene. My experience is that I end up throwing away a lot of that stuff anyway as things end up deviating from what I had planned.


It's instructive, I think, to consider what happens in a single-POV-character story compared to several characters. In these, I tend to do more rotation of other characters in scenes, and I think this demands a different kind of parallel development because each storyline has to be kept on track and in sync with the others to keep making sense. But this is naturally dependent on the kind of structure one has for a story. A story about someone traveling across the world is not likely to have a bunch of storylines that go through the whole narrative, for instance, because each new place likely has a story that is more self-contained.

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Postby Kendrix » Thu Oct 17, 2013 3:12 pm

I'm probably more of a gardener - It's not like I don't plan at all, mostly general things, or ideas for individual scenes which I then try to arrange/insert in some way.

Sometimes, I will just get carried away or have a better idea halfway through.

It's not something I chose deliberately or have pride in - it just happens as I work.

Perhaps it's a lack of the firmness needed to leave everything the same and carry it out to the end.

This whole "writing in different files and arranging it into the script" idea fills me with awe, though.
You must've been really eager to get this right.
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Postby Grand Duke of Yashima » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:11 pm

Kendrix: It was a lot of pressure to sync everything as in writing my BR#2 story at one point I had something like eight sub-narratives all going on at the same time. I didn't want to do a chapter-by-chapter because I had envisioned that when the climax came around that all of these individual strands would react to it in some way, and some of the strands would actually come together. I wanted quick cuts between scenes so that the narrative had a "feel" like EoE.
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Postby Kendrix » Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:25 pm

I would like to introduce you guys to this fanfic: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/9497605/1/Snow-on-Summer-Solstice

Not because I think it's super good - It's really marmite, quality wise, the later chapters get really good, the beginning is rather bad and at times cheesy or badly researched, but there's just something about it that is unique and, IMHO, worth discussion - I think my contributions in the review sections already say more than enough.

It's essentially an approach where someone took all of Asuka's claims of geniushood to heart and crafted this elaborate depiction of herself as this "genius trapped mind", you'll be getting a (intentionally) very arrogant insufferable first person narrator, and it's very focussed on Asuka's POV - other things go on beyond her, but we see little of them, that's it's streght and it's weakness.

I just thought many things about it had not been done in that way quite yet.

Especially mentionable are probably depictions of how piloting Unit Two actually feels to Asuka, and just detailed examinations of the relationship between possesion and possesor, without it being clear who is who.
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Postby Grand Duke of Yashima » Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:35 am

Kendrix: I read the first three chapters and sort of got the drift of what the author's trying to do with our Sweet Little Red-Haired Girl (cough, cough). This is someone else's story, correct?

Some initial and hopefully constructive comments:

1. The author should do a bit more research for EVA, watching the episodes that he's referencing again would be a good start. EVA pilots have helmets?! Well in 3.0 they do when they're in space, they appear nowhere else in the show. That's just one example.

2. Asuka's attitude is certainly angsty, and the superiority complex is there but her personality should be just a bit more multi-dimentional. Basically her Tsundere Balance is off: too much bitch, not enough sweet (even though in Asuka's case the "sweet" is often faked). In three chapters the only time we saw anything that looked remotely warm was when she hugged PenPen after nearly kicking the poor bird. Like #1, the author should research the character a bit more.

3. There's this stream of consciousness of what's in Asuka's mind for three chapters and not a single thought regarding KAJI-SAN???

4. I was turned off at the end of Chapter Three, that bit seemed really OOC and designed to just give the reader a jolt.

I get what the author wants but I do strongly suggest that he go back and watch the show for a bit, and then review and adjust the story, or at least the first few chapters. Actually the prose goes decently smooth but they have to work on the spoken dialogue and make it fit with the narrative paragraphs, not just stick out like lines in a movie script. Thought dialogue should be in italics to keep it distinct from spoken dialogue.

Again, I mean all comments in the most positive way. With a bit of adjusting this story could work out well.
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Postby amitakartok » Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:45 am

I was thinking... anyone ever had the kids go to a fortune-teller? And I mean a real one who can actually see the future, not a fake charlatan.
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Postby Kendrix » Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:41 am

View Original Postamitakartok wrote:I was thinking... anyone ever had the kids go to a fortune-teller? And I mean a real one who can actually see the future, not a fake charlatan.


There was this one RS fic whose title I can't remember right now... But it was fairly mild/ played for some form of character study.

Some initial and hopefully constructive comments:


That's more or less what I told them, especially the research failures.
The helmet was probably a very deliberate addition, tho. For realism, horror, whatever...

It does get a lot better as it goes on, I was never quite sure wether this was the person gradually improving or the early chapters being deliberate stylistic suck/unreliable narrator. Probably a mix of both/ the deliberate PoV carried out unsucessfully/a tad over the top.
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Postby NemZ » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:24 pm

View Original Postamitakartok wrote:I was thinking... anyone ever had the kids go to a fortune-teller? And I mean a real one who can actually see the future, not a fake charlatan.


..."real one"? :rolleyes:
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Postby UrsusArctos » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:37 pm

I was thinking... anyone ever had the kids go to a fortune-teller? And I mean a real one who can actually see the future, not a fake charlatan.


Dr. Facilier, maybe? I can hear Keith David singing "Are you reaaady...?" while Third Impact begins. And the Angels turn out to be evil spirits. And the Anti-Spiral is behind it all.

Alternatively, you might have Yuki Nagato out there doing the job, and it turns out that the Evangelion universe has been stuck in a Groundhog-Day loop from 3I to the day Shinji woke up and came to Tokyo-3 and all over again. And Kaworu's going nuts from accumulating so many cycles and wants Shinji to heave pleasure to get out of the mess.

(Well, I guess those would be great parody fanfics, if anyone got to writing them...)
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Postby Mr. Tines » Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:50 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:I would like to introduce you guys to this fanfic: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/9497605/1/Snow-on-Summer-Solstice
It's good.

Only read the first couple of chapters, and while there are bits that can be quibbled about -- the technology level has been uprated, for one thing -- it aligns with my own idea of Asuka, and actually conveys the continuing simmer of frustration she'd be feeling very well.
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Postby shelter » Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:10 am

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:... it aligns with my own idea of Asuka, and actually conveys the continuing simmer of frustration she'd be feeling very well.


Although with the 1st POV it's quite hard to determine the way the story would go. Asuka's 'voice' is so overblown and over-the-top that it interferes with the other characters' roles in the story.

I liked the understated ending, though. It's quite unexpected (in my opinion), but was worth all the reading.

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Postby Kendrix » Mon Oct 28, 2013 12:32 pm

I guess you could also see the heavy PoV use as making a choice and having the streght to stick with it
I have a very hard time using 1st person narration for that reason _ i just end up ranging within the limits of just one person and everything that gets missed, so even if I at times get very, very close to the individual perception of one character/their stream of conciousness, I'm not comfortable switching out of 3rd person PoV.

What this did alert me of, even though I have a very different interpretation of Asuka (mainly, that extreme brilliance is something she forces herself to do; and it hurts her; She's actually deathly afraid of the very idea of someone with "actual talent"; She needs to be somewhat above-average to do what she did, but she's not aware of that because it doesn't meet her impossibly high standarts ), was that there's really few depictions of "Asuka linking with EVA 02 and what it feels like".

Even I had completely overlooked it, and I was intending to give some time to "what linking with an EVA actually feel like" (The episode 2 berserk and my interpretation of what it was like for Shinji is already available), I had some sort of fixed idea for Mari that I already wrote down, and planned ideas about Rei and Kaworu, the former of which were already kinda implied, though I was planning to give it more detail later, but Asuka?

All I had was Shinji thinking that being inside unit two feels "colder and less inviting" and briefly wondering what it feels like for Asuka, but I had never intended to deliver on it.

If it was just me, I'd think it was me just not getting Asuka, but it doesn't get done much, and hardly ever beyond reiteration of the "Shit, it no longer works" already sufficiently implied in the series.
Maybe because she's sort of percieved as "the average case of a pilot", being basically a normal human and not the main character.

I'd be weird if I just shoehorned it in on the next possible occasion, so I'm saving the introduction of it for the oncomming "Asuka Gaiden", which I might get to once I stop being stuck in that episode 11 arc that I've been at, like, forever... It'll make for a nice parallelism when I get to that Zerogoki thing I have planned...

Or another aspect that I didn't notice, not just fanfic wise but in terms of general interpretation is... also the way Asuka's relationship with unit two is handed, but really the actual psychosocial relationship this time. The author had her think of it as something like an animal and even worry that it may have "died", but then, she's like "It's just a doll" like in episode 22. At first, I felt this was a bit of Sadamoto-esque switching back to Status Quo for Statu's Quo's sake, but then, I got it, the mechanics behind that paradox.
When you think about it, that's also in the series, with the way she talks to it in ep 10, this "seeing it as a living being", which is a tad more than an unanimated "doll".
Like a pet animal, or a cute interactive toy robot.
Maybe there was this acceptance curve reaching the point just before the uncanny valley... and then slipping right inside with a slight push. It's kinda fun to play pretend that something is alive, if it's a personalitiless blank slate, because it can become your dream, it doesn't talk back - and you don't have to respect it like a human, whom you can't mold however you want because it's a human.
It's this weird relationship that perople have with -near human objects, first, of course, the uncanny valley/"Frankenstein-Komplex", but there's also this opposing force that creates fascination. Everybody loves fictional artificial humans! Especially the sort you can mold to be anything. This opposing force, that you might, in analogy to Asimov's term, name for one of the oldest examples, "Galatea-Complex." To create something in your image, but in your exact image, not something that grows up and talks back to you (See also that old lady from GitS 2. I think it's possible for a parent to let go of that idea they want their kid to become and love them as a growing 3D person, tho. But parents DO have these ideas. )
You can also see this to an extent with Rei, who was made to take the shape of Gendo's dream. Or even the Evangelion's themselves - An EVA 02 that doesn't demand equal treatment can become Asuka's dream; One that does demand things demands she concede things. It owns her.
a lot of Asuka's inner monologue, for example during the mindrape, is also a refusal to let either of her mother figures "mold" her into their Galatea.

But it's not just unit two Asuka has this problem with. It's a general thingThat's the true meaning of the Alt Life-Action scene's "Like keeping a dog".
She sees most people like she sees unit two, really, as filling fixed cardboard roles in her world, that are mostly defined by whatever aspects of herself that she doesn't like she prefers to project onto them.
For most of the action arc... yeah, she and Shinji argued a lot, but they were able to work together and initially, Asuka was actually showing sighs of defrostment. That is because while she may deny it (allthough there are things she has much stronger dinial going on with), she actually liked to have someone to support her and fight with her, because, duh, people seek company, and it's tiring to always bear the load yourself, even if she forces herself to. so far, Shinji's existence was a relief... but only as long as he was this flailing nervous wreck of a rookie who tried hard to keep up with her, but could never actually manage to. Ideally, he would be just a little below her skil level. Once he starts getting close to surpassing her, he's scary. Suddenly, he's making her look like fake cardboard. Asuka, at least before the finale, isn't really capable of doing "equal" - the slippery slope to "superior" is too scary, so they must be inferiors.

She says that she wants an equal, but she never really meant it; She only wants to want one. She tells herself she wants one from Kaji, too, but she's actually looking for a replacement daddy.

This explains why she superficially "likes" EVA 02 while seeing it as a "doll" object in a way more elaborate that simple pretense/denial as well as the mechanics between her decreasing synch rate, and why it suddenly sparked again in EoE. She realized that EVA 02 was not a scary thing with a diffuse "will", but that there's a bit of a human in there - Her beloved mommy, whom she can cooperate with as a human, and even wants to cooperate with.

/fanwank.




Something else that was unique about this thing, however flawed it may be, is that they had the "boring random episode 15 date guy" turn out to be just genuinely boring.
most ppl either completely drop the incident, or have him turn out to be some sort of perv, presumably to downplay how Asuka really could've been less crude about dumping him, or to give the hormone-driven infatuation between her and Shinji an "Only one" status it never had.

It's very possible that the dude was a) actually just boring or b) Asuka got cold feet when she actually got close to getting older dude or c) She found she couldn't really enjoy this because older dude is not really what she wanted or d) she felt she was just "settling for less" instead of having the dude of her choice (be it Kaji or Shinji), and couldn't stand the thought.
Especially since we're not really told anything other than, "He's boring, so I left him at the rolercoaster" - The whole moment is probably meant to say something about Asuka more than anything else; if anything dramatic in a relevant way would have happened, we would have seen it.
I wanted to try harvesting the rice

I wanted to hold Tsubame more

I wanted to stay together forever with the boy I like

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Postby Gemini011 » Mon Nov 04, 2013 8:50 pm

Does anyone here know of a decently written fic that presents a serious treatment of the standard Peggy Sue trope, without playing fast and loose with characterization or inexplicably turning Shinji into a badass/chessmaster?

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:13 pm

Once More With Feeling by Crazy-88 has a really sporadic update schedule, but it's one of the best Peggy Sue's out there (in my humble opinion).
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
-Sorrow

Rei wanted to know what waffles tasted like.
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