Hollywood's "Ghost in the Shell"

[Guy Nacks]

i would just like to point out: almost all of the films you mentioned are either critically or audience-wise panned.
I saw bulletproof monk and that film had like 0 effort put into it, just money so please better examples.

Hero...Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon...Memoirs of a Geisha...Anna and the King... Bulletproof Monk...Kiss of the Dragon

Only one of these is a bad film.

Two are excellent, one is okay, and the other two are "meh."

[Rosenakahara]

i agree that two are awesome if we are thinking of the same movies but i disagree, for me a "meh" film is still a bad film because it bores me and has no re-watchability.

[Bagheera]

i would just like to point out: almost all of the films you mentioned are either critically or audience-wise panned.

Find me a blockbuster that isn't. The claim was that these movies didn't exist, when they clearly do. Quality pieces or no they gave massive amounts of exposure to an awful lot of Asian actors, to the point where a number of them (Chow Yun Fat and Jet Li in particular) are considered A-list talent.

[Chuckman]

I don't think the cyberpunk dystopia aspects of GITS are in any way uniquely Japanese. An elite group of off the books black operators that oppose a corrupt system isn't exactly foreign to the American consciousness.

[Guy Nacks]

An elite group of off the books black operators that oppose a corrupt system isn't exactly foreign to the American consciousness.

Ooh, topical.

[The Imperialist]

It was made specifically at the time when Japan's public security police's shady operation people were being made.... relatively public (i.e. people know it exists, but nothing more than that)

There is also the whole conundrum of career bureaucrats vs. raised from the bottom technocrats (with especial emphasis to the bureaucratic exams in Japan), the amakudari situation and the whole we will hire you until you die thing.

And the fact that Japan due to its relatively lax espionage laws is a spy heaven.

I think it is most definitely a Japanese setting. All of these factors mash in into one single soup as Japan perceived govn't/espionage/corporate underground. Oh and yakuzas that can do whatever it pleases as long as it doesn't make the police too angry.

[Gob Hobblin]

An elite group of off the books black operators that oppose a corrupt system isn't exactly foreign to the American consciousness.

Which does make it very relevant to today's climate, but you might as well do a completely original plot if translating it to an American setting: as Imperial notes, Ghost in the Shell deals with things that are very specific to Japanese security culture and strategic considerations. Then again, it wouldn't be the most drastic change to happen to a Shirow work.

I mean, hell, look at his heroines versus their manga counteparts: Deunan Knute and Motoko Kusanagi were both arrogant, playful, occasionally self-centered, while still being incredibly badass. In other words, human. What they evolved into on the screen were so bland in comparison to their manga counterparts.

...and don't get me started on the whitewashing Deunan and Briareos underwent. But that's a different story all together....

Bottom line is, switching it from Japan to America simply changes too much of the context: it becomes GitS in name only.

[Sachi]

Bottom line is, switching it from Japan to America simply changes too much of the context: it becomes GitS in name only.

It's okay to change the context if it can adequately apply to the new setting. Yes, the original incarnations of GitS are very relevant to the political climate of Japan at that time; however, the way it portrays its political message is through the subtext of a sci-fi action story featuring cyborgs and special forces teams. As Chuckman said, "an elite group of off the books black operators that oppose a corrupt system." The subtext and background details can easily be swapped out or even cut out in order to fit into a different context (ie, an American perspective), so long as the general themes, aesthetics and characters can still be captured.

[Gob Hobblin]

^

At that point, it's no longer a specific story: it's a collection of tropes. There have been dozens of sci-fi movies and conspiracy films focused on special forces teams and groups operating in that shadow setting GitS exists in.

I mean, if you take a story in a cyberpunk setting with special operatives and cyborgs, you can't just say it's Ghost in the Shell. It could be Neuromancer, or Shadowrun, or Syndicate. Simply taking the elements from one story, transferring them to another, and keeping the name doesn't make it the same story.

[Sachi]

At that point, it's no longer a specific story: it's a collection of tropes. There have been dozens of sci-fi movies and conspiracy films focused on special forces teams and groups operating in that shadow setting GitS exists in.

GitS has never been a specific story; between the films and the anime series, GitS is mostly a serial featuring the adventures of Section 9. Section 9 could exist anywhere, and I would hope that the storyline is something unique and not just a rehash of the original films or series.

[Chuckman]

Definitely. The manga, films, and arguably each season of the anime are all very different beasts.

The political intrigue stuff isn't even really that consistent as a theme. There's not all that much of it in the Oshii movie, it focuses more on the heady philosophy stuff.

Nothing felt alien or foreign to me about the power structure depicted in SAC. It's a hypercapitalist future dystopia. The charm, I think, comes from the inventive way cyborgs and prosthetic body parts are used to further the plot. I mean the part where the Laughing Man hacks Batou's eyes blew my mind.

Oh, and when they make this movie they better get a good Batou. I hope they don't cave in and resolve the sexual tension.

I'd award them a million imaginary internet points if they confirm that

SPOILER: Show

the Major used to be a man and picked a sexy female body for a tactical advantage

[Gob Hobblin]

The point being, it's focused on the characters of Ghost in the Shell: who are Japanese agents of Section 9.

If you move them elsewhere, do they stay Japanese? They aren't the same characters anymore, and Section 9 isn't Section 9: it's Generic Secret Police Tactical Team.

It's like Starship Troopers the film: they aren't buying the story, or the characters, they're buying the name.

[Chuckman]

I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. As Sachi points out, everyone who as adapted the original manga has made drastic changes.

I mean, if they make a good movie, they make a good movie, right?

Also, I should have said this earlier, but even with ScarJo attached this movie still isn't going to be made. Movies have stars attached and go back to development hell all the time.

[Gob Hobblin]

They made drastic changes, but they didn't change the context or the nature of the story: the core elements that made it 'Ghost in the Shell' remained. If you translate it over to America, is ScarJo still Motoko Kusanagi? How are they going to swing that name? Or the names of anybody else in Section 9?

In taking the nature of the setting, but making such a drastic change in setting, the context has to change. The characters will inherently be different. You'll end up with a bunch of similar looking characters, in a different setting, with different names.

If it's a good movie, fine, but it's still not Ghost in the Shell.

[Chuckman]

Well, I mean, look at what they did with All You Need is Kill. I would expect the adaptational changes to be something like that.

If it's good and anyone involved in the production cares. If no one cares it'll be a PG-13 actioner with Scarjo phoning it in, wearing a catsuit and snazzy jacket, and maybe doing some sideboob with a couple explosions and a markedly dumbed down plot.

I just don't think it's super important that the movie be really authentic because a crappy movie wearing the name Ghost in the Shell isn't going to erase any of the anime or manga from existence. If it's bad, just ignore it.[/spoiler]

[Gendo'sPapa]

Until the movie actually has a cast - one actress does not a cast make - a crew, is shot & has footage to show I'll just keep thinking of it as Aeon Flux 2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNjyVjoDyQo

[The Imperialist]

If they decide to make it, they better keep the context (which is part of the identity of Ghost in the Shell).

If they decided to turn it into a 'Security Service's Super Secret Special Scion Story' which would be.... not the most atypical thing about, they don't need to go around using the Ghost in the Shell name and hacking the context to pieces. They can just make the film with possible homage to Ghost in the Shell, and not defile the original namesake.

(All you need is kill is not the best of examples mainly because the only thing ever so Japanese about the original is the main character and a loose mention that it takes place somewhere in Japan- it is mostly centred on the interaction of the characters with very light detail to the context, while GITS is quite heavy in the depiction of the background and a lot of interconnected bureaucratic terminology that would make your average Finance Ministry accountant officer first grade squee)

And while Sachi points out that Section 9 could be anywhere, the context was specifically the introduction of the 'Chiyoda' units and the interdepartment rivalry between regional police security service and the metropolitan public security police (which all fall under the national police agency's security bureau- which also has a similar but different offshoot called the foreign affairs police) and there is actually quite a lot of the security service 'outings' of the 80's that is very much represented in GITS. (Few other ministerial ones like Foreign Ministry and might also have included a direct reference to some of the scandals surrounding the Ministry of Land and Infrastructure in terms of the more overt cuddles between corporation and elite bureaucrats)

I would also hesitate to call GITS a cyberpunk hypercapitalist thing mainly because GITS is in fact quite explicit on the more traditional Japanese statist control of the industry (and section 9 being one of the 'tools' used by the government to secure its security) and the monolithic nature of the Japanese government more than the libertarian hypercapitalism one might see in shows with similar aesthetics.


(All in all, I would stick by this even without my hyper cultural nationalist-purist goggles on, for example if Hollywood decides to remake Silmido into a fictional American context, I would say no, if you wish to remake it keep it Korean. A number of exception where the Hollywood remake is just as good can be seen in a few things but I would strongly advise in maintaining original context even in remakes. I think the Richard III with Ian Mckellan in it, even as a remake and a dramatic change in context, the underlying context of British monarchy saved it from being too strange. On the other hand, the modern remake of Coriolanus was a bit off, didn't need to be called Coriolanus)

[movieartman]

I have another idea which will lessen the lead ethnic switch problem have her been born Japanese with a Japanese name. Just have a random body form that happens to not be a Japanese.
have section 8 give her a choice of bodies to choose from. Maybe have it been in story her character casually changes looks from time to time.
maybe have her say on film, "surprise me" or "makes no difference to me"
Also i was thinking about mabye have her partner with the eyes (sorry forget the name) be black or something (idris elba? dennis haysbert?) Not white like he was in the show. That way it's not only a ethnic to white switch happening.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Gob If Hollywood's GitS isn't GitS because of changes, then neither is Oshii's movies GitS also because of changes.

It's also important to note that whatever special ops team portrayed in GitS is as completely non-exist nt and made up in [s]Japan[/s] Hong Kong as it would be in America. They have nothing unique to culture present in the modern realities of Asia and are certainly yet another staple of various speculative fiction that we've seen from all cultures and countries. (Matrix, Equalibrium, Blade Runner, just to name a few.)

[Gob Hobblin]

At a fundamental level, though: you're kind of right. Oshii's movies kept such a loose interpretation of the manga that it is really GitS in name only. The interagency rivalry is only partly touched on, and the characters became caricatures of themselves (Motoko lost vast swathes of her personality and Batou became a thug).

They're great films, but barely GitS. SAC, however, demonstrated an excellent adaptation (whereas Arise: I'm still on the fence about. Captures the sense of overwhelmung governmental bloat, bureaucracy, and j nfighting...but the characters are different enough as to be entirely new characters).