Controversial Anime Opinions

[Defectron]

The reason I like ultimate better then the hellsing manga is because one of the biggest weaknesses of the manga doesn't translate over to the anime. By that I mean all the manga fights looked awkward as hell to me, but animated they actually look pretty cool. The best examples I can think of are when Walter turns his monowire into bullet proof shields somehow, man did that ever look dumb in the manga but it actually looked cool in the anime, still didn't make sense but the important thing is it looked cool when animated. Another is when the blood turns into moving arrows, once again that looked very weird in the manga, but it looked kind of cool in the anime.

[Ray]

I like the Macross Frontier TV show better than the Macross Frontier Movies.

[Justacrazyguy]

I like the Macross Frontier TV show better than the Macross Frontier Movies.

There is just so much in the Tv series right? I don't have anything against the movies, I thought they were pretty good(even if the first is little more than a recap) but they just lose too much depth on the trasintion to a movie format.

It's the same with the original Macross, DYRL is great, but it has a big shadow cast over it.

[Alaska Slim]

It's the same with the original Macross, DYRL is great, but it has a big shadow cast over it.

DYRL is an in-universe biopic. If anything the weakness was made a canonical strength.

[Bagheera]

I like the Macross Frontier TV show better than the Macross Frontier Movies.

I do as well. The movies feel very rushed, particularly towards the end. I liked the final battle in the show far more.

[Tankred]

The great thing about Kawamori is that he knows how to adapt his shows into films competently.

[Enki v.2]

I don't know if this is controversial or not, but: thank god Owarimonogatari went back to basics and did its own thing rather than being another extension on the ongoing plot-clusterfuck that constituted everything in Monogatari Second Series after Nekomonogatari ended. Second Series tried to pull off what Nisemonogatari managed (have a larger storyline tying together all the individual segments of the season), but Nisemonogatari managed to do this well by having the larger storyline be essentially about Kaiki's really weird and interesting philosophical take on the value of authenticity in occult traditions (and also by focusing on the sisters, who hadn't really had much development before then). Monogatari Second Series, on the other hand, spends a lot of time on melodramatically tying up some of the plot threads left over from previous seasons (which could have been left hanging just as well), and although it brings in the third entry in the trinity of Oshino and Kaiki (and her adorable golem-girl sidekick), these two don't get nearly enough development because of multi-episode-long attempts to basically just explain away why Snake Girl and Snail Girl won't appear in the background anymore. The tight storytelling and the tight dialogue was lost, and lots of great characters end up acting horribly OOC which is nice for laughs the first time we see it but becomes pretty tired pretty quick. It's particularly bad with Hanekawa, who just had all this character development in Nekomonogatari and now is just acting like a plot device, and Kaiki, whose function is to be vaguely corrupt enough to be a useful tool and to be the subject of lots of gags about how his surroundings are insufficiently gothy. Owarimonogatari goes back to what the beginning of Nisemonogatari was like, and although it focuses on a couple newly introduced characters, it goes back to the high-concept stuff the franchise was built on.

With regard to My Teen Romantic Comedy Snafu: the reason I liked the first season is that it's a subtle yet effective deconstruction of school-life harem shows that trucks in the tropes somewhat but is essentially more about social isolation (the same way that Evangelion isn't really about giant mechs). It always had just enough discord there that when a harem or rom-com cliche appeared it seemed awkward and distant and didn't evoke the typical empathetic reaction. This second season approaches too close to actually *being* an effective harem show, overcomplicates the plot, turns our love triangle into a love square or something, and causes the characters whose core attributes are related to being able to be largely apparently unaffected by pathos have this passionate and tear-jerking conversation about -- well, I think they were quoting Slajov Zizek maybe? I liked the first season because it intentionally failed at being a harem show or a romantic comedy, in a way that was satisfying by being calculatedly frustrating and also elucidating a particular narrative about self-imposed social isolation; furthermore, to the extent that Yuigahara and Yukinoshita liked Hachiman, it was understandable: they had history, they were spending a lot of time with him, and all three of them were socially isolated in their own way and really had the most in common with each other; this new girl isn't justified in that, particularly since we've established that *outside the context of the club* Hachiman's cynical tendencies and crazy eyes keep him from being considered attractive and that *the operations of the club* systematically decrease the general student body's trust of him (with the exception of Hayato, who is essentially Hachiman's Jungian shadow: they are both socially crafty and manipulative, but Hayato has a very positive self image and a very positive view of people in general, avoids hurting people even for their own good, and goes to great lengths to keep himself popular, while Hachiman is obliquely self-loathing and explicitly self-isolating with a cynical attitude toward people in general but a willingness to help individuals by putting them through ordeals). Brushing that dynamic aside is exactly what the first season *wouldn't* do. (Second season gets points for

SPOILER: Show

*explicitly* not resolving the love triangle

though.)

[Alaska Slim]

With regard to My Teen Romantic Comedy Snafu: the reason I liked the first season is that it's a subtle yet effective deconstruction of school-life harem shows that trucks in the tropes somewhat but is essentially more about social isolation (the same way that Evangelion isn't really about giant mechs). It always had just enough discord there that when a harem or rom-com cliche appeared it seemed awkward and distant and didn't evoke the typical empathetic reaction. This second season approaches too close to actually *being* an effective harem show

That's more a decision on the studio's part on what elements to keep or not.

Feel had to keep Iroha elements because she was central to several of the plot lines, the same to Ebina.

Brain's Base though largely overlooked Somethingsaki-san Kawasaki's moments, who was actually crushing on Hachiman since just slightly after her "intervention".

Mr. Watari (the author) is subverting Rom com conventions with Oregairu, but he didn't escape all the trappings. The Second season just puts more of them on display (Except in the case of *Fanservice*, I'd say the 1st season was bigger on that), because it's serving as the emotional zenith of the story; exposing the weakness of Hachiman's past logic, having him confront what he wants, then experiencing the struggle of finding out what a genuine relationship means in practice.

, overcomplicates the plot, turns our love triangle into a love square or something, and causes the characters whose core attributes are related to being able to be largely apparently unaffected by pathos

Who? Yukinoshita? She's not unemotional, and she never has been. She's essentially "Hachiman" from another angle, we as the viewer however can't entirely perceive that because we can't hear her thoughts. Thus the fact she's just as vulnerable and flawed as Hikki is something that's revealed to us over time.

, to the extent that Yuigahara and Yukinoshita liked Hachiman, it was understandable: they had history, they were spending a lot of time with him, and all three of them were socially isolated in their own way and really had the most in common with each other;

Yuigahama has very little in common with the other two. She's popular, she can maintain relationships outside the club, and what's more, she alone had the maturity to realize that just because a relationship may hurt, that doesn't mean you should stop trying. Sometimes that means you should just try harder.

Further, Yuighama "loved" Hikki even before she joined the club (heck, she came to the club as a way to figure out how to make an appeal to him). Out of everyone ('cept maybe Kawasaki) her attention on him is both the most cliche, and wish-fullfillment-esce.

(Second season gets points for

SPOILER: Show

*explicitly* not resolving the love triangle

though.)

Frankly, they can't resolve it until Yukinoshita's issues are themselves resolved. As she stands, she's as Hachiman was before the episode 8 confession, still trying to reconcile her past logic with her current situation, rather than abandoning said logic for something else

[Princess Asuka]

The original Sailor Moon and is better than Crystal.

[Rosenakahara]

This isn't controversial.
Its not even opinion its just fact.

[Compiling_Autumn]

I don't know if this is controversial or not, but: thank god Owarimonogatari went back to basics and did its own thing rather than being another extension on the ongoing plot-clusterfuck that constituted everything in Monogatari Second Series after Nekomonogatari ended. Second Series tried to pull off what Nisemonogatari managed (have a larger storyline tying together all the individual segments of the season), but Nisemonogatari managed to do this well by having the larger storyline be essentially about Kaiki's really weird and interesting philosophical take on the value of authenticity in occult traditions (and also by focusing on the sisters, who hadn't really had much development before then). Monogatari Second Series, on the other hand, spends a lot of time on melodramatically tying up some of the plot threads left over from previous seasons (which could have been left hanging just as well), and although it brings in the third entry in the trinity of Oshino and Kaiki (and her adorable golem-girl sidekick), these two don't get nearly enough development because of multi-episode-long attempts to basically just explain away why Snake Girl and Snail Girl won't appear in the background anymore. The tight storytelling and the tight dialogue was lost, and lots of great characters end up acting horribly OOC which is nice for laughs the first time we see it but becomes pretty tired pretty quick. It's particularly bad with Hanekawa, who just had all this character development in Nekomonogatari and now is just acting like a plot device, and Kaiki, whose function is to be vaguely corrupt enough to be a useful tool and to be the subject of lots of gags about how his surroundings are insufficiently gothy. Owarimonogatari goes back to what the beginning of Nisemonogatari was like, and although it focuses on a couple newly introduced characters, it goes back to the high-concept stuff the franchise was built on.

No way, no way. Second Series introduces the closest thing the series has to a "villain" over the course of three arcs. Nadeko Medusa is as cerebral as anything you might find in Nisemonogatari (which I'm not trying to say is lesser than Second Series, in fact I like it just as much), when examining Nadeko's character and motivations (and the whole issue of how "real" apparitions are too). I think Hanekawa's arc was fantastic too, how can you say she was just a plot device in Second Series?

I'm not saying that Owarimonogatari couldn't be miles better than Second Series, but Second Series, for all its filler (the time travel arc, the recap episodes) has some amazing characterization and plot developments; it really upped the stakes for the series.

[Enki v.2]

No way, no way. Second Series introduces the closest thing the series has to a "villain" over the course of three arcs.

One of the best things about the franchise was that there weren't any straight-up villains: interpersonal problems came from philosophical disagreements and monsters are literally manifestations of neurosis. Second season then introduces an *evil shadow monster*.

Nadeko Medusa is as cerebral as anything you might find in Nisemonogatari (which I'm not trying to say is lesser than Second Series, in fact I like it just as much), when examining Nadeko's character and motivations (and the whole issue of how "real" apparitions are too).

Nadeko's character development went too far and came out the other end. We start off by indicating that some of her issues might actually come down to vanity and jealousy. By the end, she had turned into a personification of mindless envy, and cannot be saved because she's permanently lost the memories of the events and ideas that led her to this state of mind. In a show wherein monsters are defeated through psychoanalysis and critical deconstruction, taking a minor and boring character and spontaneously turning her into a god with no connection to her human past is cheating.

I think Hanekawa's arc was fantastic too, how can you say she was just a plot device in Second Series?

Nekomonogatari Black and Nekomonogatari White were great. Hanekawa then disappears for the wind down of snail girl, and when she comes back (along with Senjougahara) during the Nadeko arc both of them are basically functioning as engines to manipulate Kaiki into negotiating with Nadeko so that Araragi doesn't need do, even though the particulars of how that's done by the both of them are out of character. Of course, this is kind of telegraphed: this is when their hair styles change, and Hanekawa has white-striped hair solely for her totally OOC role as secret agent.

Basically, the Nadeko arc was totally out of keeping with everything else in the franchise in terms of format and structure and characterization of any and all characters. (Sure, Araragi's self-sacrifice thing is there, but Araragi's style is less to set a date six months in the future when he'll be unceremoniously killed and more to barge in and get himself mangled as soon as he figures out a way that that will help anybody.)

I think Shaft realized that, and that's why all the characters are literally drawn differently, Araragi barely shows up at all, and characters are universally shown in a setting that is outside their comfort zone (Kaiki and Senjougahara meet in a family resturant that doesn't match either of them; Hanekawa operates out of a swanky hotel room that looks like it might be a penthouse suite; everyone dresses in winter clothes even though they've never worn winter clothes in literally any of the other arcs.)

Monogatari Second Series is not merely a place where mismatched bit of story have been thrown in, but also (especially with the Nadeko arc) a graveyard for all the bits of the books that don't fit tonally, thematically, in style or in substance or in characterization with the other stuff. It's the sacrificial series that you're allowed to hate, and they packed it full of the worst stuff in all the books just to get it over with.

I'm not saying that Owarimonogatari couldn't be miles better than Second Series, but Second Series, for all its filler (the time travel arc, the recap episodes) has some amazing characterization and plot developments; it really upped the stakes for the series.

It upped the stakes for a mostly non-chronological series with a long chronologically coherent arc that nothing else can be fit into. But, upping the stakes is very much a shounen-fighting kind of thing to do. It doesn't make sense in a show where the violence in fights is of minor importance compared to the symbolic meaning of self-sacrifice, where losing can be winning if the losing mirrors some past trauma, and where the real fighting is against supernatural monsters who are literally the material manifestation of mental illness and can only be fought with words and psychoanalysis. Upping the stakes that way is particularly self-defeating when the stakes are upped in a way that doesn't really tie into any other character's history, and in Nadeko's case, her characterization began as an unmemorable personification of the reach of the harem element in this show, as someone nobody remembers or cares about but who sort of inexplicably is in love with the main character.



AlaskaSlim,

With regard to Yukinoshita & Hachiman and the pathos angle, while it's clear that Hachiman is not without emotions (and I agree with your suggestion that Yukinoshita is a different angle on Hachiman, or at least someone who is essentially very similar), the point I was making is that Yukinoshita and Hachiman have a very well-developed callousness that allows them to perform actions that other characters would lack the emotional fortitude to perform. This is why Hachiman is constantly called upon to take the role of the bad guy when having a bad guy is required, and why Yukinoshita is called upon to take roles of authority when authority is needed -- because even though it's a burden, it's a burden that they have become accustomed to handling and one that they have developed skills at handling. It's that very skillset that made me feel like the spontaneous crying was out of character; I felt like, in order for that callousness to break the stress levels would need to be a lot higher. However, I have to admit that I found the first half of the second season *extremely* boring and zoned out through most of it, so maybe I missed some clues that would point to much greater stress levels behind that moment.

With regard to Yuigahara, she's a lot more similar to Yukinoshita and Hachiman than she initially seems. She's not popular but instead 'popular'. This was, after all, one of the earliest observations made about her: she drastically changed the way she acted in order to fit in with the popular clique but because she changed her behavior so much she was unable to really connect with any of them. (My own position, with regard to Yui/Hachiman, is that Yui admires Hachiman's apparent ability to ignore his loneliness and avoid compromising his own sense of identity for the sake of fitting into a group; of course, this is mostly BS and his principles are mostly an excuse he makes to himself to hide a fear of rejection, but Yui doesn't know that and doesn't need to know that seeing as how they've never really even spoken before the show begins.) Yuigahara is very similar to Yukinoshita in that they both have the social skills necessary to slip into some group and take a particular accepted role with a minimum of friction (Yui as fawning groupie and Yukino as reliable manager/class rep archetype), and they differ in that Yukino has skin nearly as thick as Hachiman's. Yui hasn't yet developed the ability to compensate for the insecurity she feels about not being able to figure out how to really connect with people, and as the series goes on she spends more and more time and effort with the service club where bluntness and lack of pretense are more acceptable and casual insults are normal, to the point where her role in the popular clique becomes that of a spy for Hachiman.

In other words, it's not that Yui isn't a social misfit. It's that Yui is a social misfit who isn't strong enough to avoid faking it, even though she wants to. This makes her a perfect match for Hachiman, who is a social misfit who isn't strong enough to fake it even though he wants to, and Yukino, who is a social misfit who merely prefers not to bother because an air of hostile distance from the rabble minimizes the likelihood that she will be forced into responsibility, which she is not strong enough to refuse.

[esselfortium]

Monogatari Second Series is not merely a place where mismatched bit of story have been thrown in, but also (especially with the Nadeko arc) a graveyard for all the bits of the books that don't fit tonally, thematically, in style or in substance or in characterization with the other stuff. It's the sacrificial series that you're allowed to hate, and they packed it full of the worst stuff in all the books just to get it over with.

It's really silly to suggest that Second Season was designed as an idea graveyard or as a "sacrificial series that you're allowed to hate," considering that I've seen it widely considered to be the peak of the franchise so far, and you're the first person I've seen take issue with it like this. I think you're giving your own personal distaste for it far too much credit as an objective judgment of its intent and worth, here.

[Enki v.2]

It's really silly to suggest that Second Season was designed as an idea graveyard or as a "sacrificial series that you're allowed to hate," considering that I've seen it widely considered to be the peak of the franchise so far, and you're the first person I've seen take issue with it like this. I think you're giving your own personal distaste for it far too much credit as an objective judgment of its intent and worth, here.

This is, of course, the controversial opinion thread ;-)

(Who considers it to be the peak of the franchise? I might be watching it for very different reasons than some other people.)

Having a sacrificial season isn't a new idea, but it's certainly risky. Think of the Haruhi franchise, and how the second season of Haruhi basically killed the whole franchise by adding in Endless Eight *and* the movie-taping arc from the second book. Monogatari Second Series isn't as bad as Haruhi s2, but they share a couple attributes: both were made at the same time as a movie adaptation of one of the books, both broke the normal pattern of the show by having long and unbroken multi-episode arcs rather than interrupting a main arc with a bunch of 1-3 episode arcs out of chronology, and both spend a lot of time tying up loose ends and explaining changes to the cast/plot that are fairly uninteresting but necessary for understanding some stuff that happens later.

[esselfortium]

This is, of course, the controversial opinion thread ;-)

(Who considers it to be the peak of the franchise? I might be watching it for very different reasons than some other people.)

Having a sacrificial season isn't a new idea, but it's certainly risky. Think of the Haruhi franchise, and how the second season of Haruhi basically killed the whole franchise by adding in Endless Eight *and* the movie-taping arc from the second book. Monogatari Second Series isn't as bad as Haruhi s2, but they share a couple attributes: both were made at the same time as a movie adaptation of one of the books, both broke the normal pattern of the show by having long and unbroken multi-episode arcs rather than interrupting a main arc with a bunch of 1-3 episode arcs out of chronology, and both spend a lot of time tying up loose ends and explaining changes to the cast/plot that are fairly uninteresting but necessary for understanding some stuff that happens later.

It was a general impression I had gotten from forum threads, but I just confirmed it by checking a minute ago and seeing that Second Season has the highest rating on MAL of all the Monogatari seasons so far.

Though I certainly wouldn't ever argue that MAL ratings are an indicator of objective quality, I think it's a pretty fair way of getting at least a rough idea of whether people liked or hated it, and it doesn't at all line up with the concept that Second Season was a sacrificial dumping ground for fans to hate. The rating on MAL lines up with the reactions I've seen elsewhere. In forum discussions such as SA's Monogatari threads, I've also seen it pretty widely considered the peak so far, or at least a notable peak in the franchise, and I think I'd be inclined to agree. It took the story in some unexpected new directions that I enjoyed a lot, gave non-Araragi characters some more attention, and had a lot of moments that made me smile.

[robersora]

One of the best things about the franchise was that there weren't any straight-up villains: interpersonal problems came from philosophical disagreements and monsters are literally manifestations of neurosis. Second season then introduces an *evil shadow monster*.

If you talk about Kaiki, he's definitely not a villain - he is not even a real antagonist, as he ends up helping everybody. The fascinating thing about Hitagi end is that his arc didn't only shed more light into Senjougahara's past, but also showcased the fascinating development of not only Senjougahara, but also Hanekawa and Nadeko. All the while we take a peek into a deeply broken man, doing nothing but debating with himself. At no point he's villanious. He wouldn't even appear if Hitagi wouldn't have requested his presence (which shows her deep love for Araragi, because she knew, bringing back the con-man was the only way to bring of Araragi from "saving" another girl.

Nadeko's character development went too far and came out the other end. We start off by indicating that some of her issues might actually come down to vanity and jealousy. By the end, she had turned into a personification of mindless envy, and cannot be saved because she's permanently lost the memories of the events and ideas that led her to this state of mind. In a show wherein monsters are defeated through psychoanalysis and critical deconstruction, taking a minor and boring character and spontaneously turning her into a god with no connection to her human past is cheating.

The whole Nadeko affair is not only backed up by some great writing, but is generally full of intriguing plot developments. Nadeko's godmode was again an apparation born out of her psychological issue, called love. And love can be hitting hard and irrationally, it hits way harder than all the other repressed neuroses showcased in Monogatari up until that point - which is way her apparition was so powerful in the first place. Saying she has lost her connection to her human self might be correct, but that was because all the destructive aspects of love came to the forefront.

Nekomonogatari Black and Nekomonogatari White were great. Hanekawa then disappears for the wind down of snail girl, and when she comes back (along with Senjougahara) during the Nadeko arc both of them are basically functioning as engines to manipulate Kaiki into negotiating with Nadeko so that Araragi doesn't need do, even though the particulars of how that's done by the both of them are out of character.

Why is it out of character? Both of them are close friends to Araragi, Senjougahara is and Hanekawa was in love with him - which suffices to make them want stopping him from interfering, because they fear he might lose his human side in the process (and some other reason, which might be revealed).
But even if feelings are no argument to care for a person, then you could also see it that both want to repay the favor
So both girls have one rational and emotional reason to help him, which is even spelled out numerous times. (literally, they talk a lot. it's not even hinted at, it's spelled out, like, many times). To me that seems totally valid and not out of character at all.

Basically, the Nadeko arc was totally out of keeping with everything else in the franchise in terms of format and structure and characterization of any and all characters. (Sure, Araragi's self-sacrifice thing is there, but Araragi's style is less to set a date six months in the future when he'll be unceremoniously killed and more to barge in and get himself mangled as soon as he figures out a way that that will help anybody.)

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're saying in this paragraph. Could you elaborate?

I think Shaft realized that, and that's why all the characters are literally drawn differently,

That's called visual storytelling, and I don't see what's negative about that.

Araragi barely shows up at all,

Considering, we know enough about Araragi for now (of course in third season, where his character will possibly be experiencing great changes, it'll make sense again to see the world from his perspective) all the other characters' inner world's are much more interesting to witness at that particular point in the show. I mean, basically everyone in his harem has her own complex reason for helping Araragi and, making sufficient time for shedding light onto those feelings is one of the strongest aspects of Monogatari overall.

and characters are universally shown in a setting that is outside their comfort zone

I cannot see how that can do anything else than add to the tension and deepen the understanding of the characters.

everyone dresses in winter clothes even though they've never worn winter clothes in literally any of the other arcs.

Well, the arc plays in Winter. But... I mean, that's a ridiculous claim to make, anyway, so I won't comment it further.

Monogatari Second Series is not merely a place where mismatched bit of story have been thrown in, but also (especially with the Nadeko arc) a graveyard for all the bits of the books that don't fit tonally, thematically, in style or in substance or in characterization with the other stuff. It's the sacrificial series that you're allowed to hate, and they packed it full of the worst stuff in all the books just to get it over with.

Monogatari Second Season is awesome, because it showed, that with great talent you can infuse even the gimmickiest of storytelling formats I have seen with soul and heart. And that alone makes S2 a great achievement. It's not perfect, mind you, but loving something is embracing even their flaws. The thing is, all the stuff you talk about, are not flaws, you just dislike them, because you didn't like how Monogatari changed. You dislike that it's not a battle of abstract philosophical ideas feat. sexy girls. The series works hard to infuse some heart into it's cast, because it knows that just showing more vignettes rooted in different pop-psychological and pop-philosophical topics, cluttering it with awesome visuals won't be enough to sustain interest. That's why the creators decided it would be time to evolve. And it was the right decision to make.
Now, if we talked about wasted time for Hajikuchi, that would be a different issue ;)

[Gendo'sPapa]

Everything to do with Nadeko in the second season is easily the series highpoint so far. A fascinating journey for a character to go through & exceptionally told.

And because Aragagi was sidelined for almost all of it the pedophile jokes were kept to a bare minimum which is always a plus in my book.

[Enki v.2]

I guess where I differ from you guys is that I didn't really like either Nadeko or Hajikuji, and I thought that Nadeko's character didn't get meaningfully fleshed out in an interesting way in second season. Part of this is that she was *so* unmemorable that I didn't remember her at all when I first saw her in second season, and it was halfway through her arc that I realized that she wasn't a newly introduced character. If you consider Nadeko to be an interesting character, then her development will be a lot more interesting; however, prior to her godmode arc, I felt like her only real characterization was that she had a crush on Araragi -- which puts her in the same boat as *every other female character in the show* including Araragi's sisters. So, when a long and drawn out Hajikuji wrap-up was followed immediately by a long and drawn out Nadeko wrap-up, it really made me question why I was bothering to continue to watch the show (particularly since I was watching it simulcast, and so rather than being six hours of filler about characters I didn't care about, it was twelve weeks of filler about characters I didn't care about).

For me, a huge draw of the show was how it came up with interesting and innovative ways of characterizing people's perspectives and materializing them. Kaiki was interesting because he was the personification of the point of view on magic that's conspicuously missing from the normal argument -- his existence indicates that Oshino's position is the middle one rather than a negative extreme. The whole thing in Hitagi Crab was an interesting take on grief and guilt. Hachikuji becomes more interesting if you think of her as being created by and from Araragi rather than somehow being independent: she's his mechanism of escape. Hanekawa just gets better and better the more character development she gets. And, for the most part, once their problems are solved they become interesting because of their particular character traits and what they add to the dialogue.

Nadeko's problem is a boring one: she has an unresolved stupid crush. Her personality is fairly uninteresting, and while S2 tries to spin the very uninterestingness of her personality as being interesting in of itself, that spin did not work on me -- I still find her uninteresting because even in uninterestingness she is not particularly extreme. When being boring and having a crush suddenly turned her into a snake goddess, along with the help of a seal made by Oshino (who, remember, doesn't believe that seals or anything else have actual powers: Oshino is of the opinion that magic is weaponized delusion and that 'oddities' are purely psychological, and the Nadeko arc is the very first thing that really clearly rejects that), it felt like either a cop-out or a really unsuccessful stretch.

My point about S2 with regard to the style is just that: in S2, nothing fits, at all. The style changes; the storytelling changes; the characters change; the season changes. That's not bad in of itself, but in order to be good it needs to be justified by interesting things happening. None of the things that happened in S2 (post-Nekomonogatari) interested me, and thus I was furthermore less willing to forgive the inconsistencies.

Again, Araragi being gone isn't a bad thing either. But, in the case of the Nadeko arc, it felt contrived. More specifically, it felt like the Nadeko arc wasn't really made with Araragi, Senjougahara, Hanekawa, and Nadeko in mind but instead as an excuse to stick Kaiki in some interesting situations and then these other characters were substituted into roles that weren't driven by their personalities. When I say they act out of character or that they are acting like plot devices, I mean that -- to an extreme degree compared to the other seasons -- the plot does not seem to stem from the way that these characters usually behave but instead their behavior seems to stem from the needs of the plot in order to create a particular end-game. And, since I didn't find that end game interesting, I put up with it less so than I would in some other situation (for instance, in Owarimonogatari, Sugara appears only to introduce Oshino's niece, and hasn't yet appeared again. There's no clear reason why she should know this girl or why this girl should pick her out to talk to her about being introduced to Araragi. But because the new characters in this arc are interesting, I'm putting up with it, particularly since from the beginning I have reason to doubt that she's Oshino's niece or even human.)

People who really liked Hajikuji probably felt like S2 was great because it spent a lot of time and effort on her farewell. People who really liked Nadeko probably felt the same way. But, in terms of characters who I actually find interesting, Nisemonogatari-era Kaiki, Oshino, and Hanekawa top the list and Nadeko and Hajikuji are down at the bottom. While it's plot-justified, Kaiki spends so much of the time playing a role he's uncomfortable with in the Nadeko arc that I couldn't even get any satisfaction from that, and Hanekawa appears during this arc only to give Kaiki advice. (And, of course, of the trinity here I find Oshino and Kaiki the most interesting because the third character, whose name I've forgotten, has the same position as literally everybody in a fantasy show on how magic works. It's hardly unreasonable for the shadow monster to attack during the time spent focused on her, but it's not a good excuse for bringing unexamined fantasy cliches into a show that was all about bucking or subverting them.)

[esselfortium]

Nadeko didn't stand out to me in the least until S2, so that's not at all why I enjoyed her appearances there. I don't think she stood out to many people until S2, and I think that was pretty much intentional. Looking back it felt like her existence prior to that point was just planting the seeds for things to happen later on. The earlier series even hint at it in ways that seem designed to only be picked up on in retrospect, like when Kanbaru offhandedly refers to her as the final boss.

[Alaska Slim]

AlaskaSlim,

With regard to Yukinoshita & Hachiman and the pathos angle, while it's clear that Hachiman is not without emotions (and I agree with your suggestion that Yukinoshita is a different angle on Hachiman, or at least someone who is essentially very similar), the point I was making is that Yukinoshita and Hachiman have a very well-developed callousness that allows them to perform actions that other characters would lack the emotional fortitude to perform. This is why Hachiman is constantly called upon to take the role of the bad guy when having a bad guy is required,

Except, that in of itself frequently lead him into going too far, or doing the wrong thing in the situation, all to reinforce his flawed world view where he was indeed hurting himself.

The story is building upon emotional inertia, first with what he did during the Cultural festival; his confrontation with Sasami where afterword, I'll remind you, he broke down.

The fallout from that confrontation was the first sign the girls picked up on that Hikki's methods were more than just underhanded, they pointed to an unhealthy lack of self-concern for the person concocting them.

Next, he casually dispensed with himself again during the Ebina case, putting his lack of self-concern on full display. It was so bad Ebina and Hayato apologized to him over it. Equally, this was after Yukino had defended him in the club when others wished to see him leave the room! She had started to care for him, but he wasn't caring for himself.

And then he poked this wound by suggesting he do it again with Iroha. Leading to a confrontation.

Even when he developed a new method for Iroha, he then instead simply robbed Yukinoshita of a means to actaulize herself out of her sister's shadow. This despite the fact that Yukino had been telegraphing her intentions about them working together on the student council, intentions she thought he could read without her having to voice them. When he didn't, it proved (in her mind) that not only did he dispense with her advice, but that she was neither his friend, nor was she really neccesary in his schemes. He could handle things on his own.

When Iroha came back again asking for help however, Hikki was just concerned about not having Yukino focus on what she lost on out on. He couldn't, with his old rationale, discern a reason for wanting to patch up the distance emerging between the three of them over it all.

With this, he found himself at an impasse. He desired to fix the strain in his relationships in the club, but he couldn't fit any reason for why he would want that into his flawed framework. Becoming distant with Yukino and Yui should have been the solution, he should have been wishing to return to isolation. "No one would be hurt this way" as he would say. But he wasn't satisfied with this, and he couldn't explain to himself why.

I felt like, in order for that callousness to break the stress levels would need to be a lot higher.

His natural human desire for closeness and intimacy were conflicting with the worldview he had been keeping quite strictly to for the last three years; a worldview built upon what was for him bitter experience.

The stress was high, because the emotional baggage he was invoking in this internal struggle went to the core of who and what he thought he was.

With regard to Yuigahara, she's a lot more similar to Yukinoshita and Hachiman than she initially seems.

I'll grant you that she is a misfit in her own way. However, she also, as I said, has a maturity the other two lack. She desires closeness, and acknowedges the fact, refusing to view it as weakness, or pain as a reason to avoid attaining it. She has compassion for others, and is willing to act on that compassion for its own sake. She doesn't need to be asked first or given a pretense.

The only person Hachiman had been like this with was his own sister, whom he used as a crutch to justify his actions with Iroha. Yukinoshita has pretty much no one; just the two possible developing exceptions she now has in the club. Which, along with not having the same advisorial relationship with Sensei, is probably why she's behind Hachiman in development.

But I digress. Coming back to the difference, it's this lack of maturity that underlies if not defines the worldview Hachiman and Yukino have had for most of the series. By instead having it, Yui is more like Yumiko, who is equally willing to express & act on concern without pretense, and who equally knows that pain must at times be traversed to attain something worthwhile in relationships.