Question regarding 2.0's finale

[sean_sean_sean_sean]

[I am really sorry if none of this makes sense. I’ve tried to be as clear as possible, but sometimes my prose can get a little messy and confused. Sorry if this whole post is an unreadable mess!]

I have been thinking about 2.0’s Third Impact sequence quite a bit, mainly wondering whether or not I have been misinterpreting it completely, or whether I am detecting irony where there is none. Basically, I just wanted to see what other people have been thinking about this, to find out whether I am completely muddled or not.

The thing is: at first, I was troubled by the chain of events leading up to Third Impact. It just seemed wrong that Third Impact was initiated by a Shinji who was actually reaching out and connecting with another person (Rei). Since Instrumentality has always been about running away from others, I found this quite jarring. And troubling. I felt that the lack of selfishness and hatred made this whole scene feel unpleasantly sugary and schmaltzy. Needless to say, selflessness, heroism, sugar and schmaltz is not what I would like from Eva.

However, when I began to think about the scene more carefully, it struck me that perhaps I was looking at it in the wrong way. Before Third Impact begins, Shinji screams that he ‘doesn’t care what happens to the world’, and once it begins, Ritsuko says (according to the translation currently up on the wiki site, if I remember correctly) something like: ‘Shogouki is spinning heaven, earth and all creation into a giant complementary wave […] all life will end […] purely to grant the wishes of one person. Just for that.’

Anno then goes on to juxtapose images of the world blowing to pieces with an image of Shinji and Rei embracing, at peace, with Shinji saying ‘none of that matters anymore… it’s alright here…’ [calm silence]

Once I started thinking about this, I began to get a little excited. Before, I had been worried that this scene was no more than shameless schmaltz. But now, I started to realise that perhaps Shinji’s selfishness and hatred of the world was once again manifesting itself in an apocalyptic manner. Maybe, I wondered, this whole scene was much more ironic than I had originally thought.

Even the lyrics of the song seemed to fit this interpretation. I realise that it is an arrangement of a song from the ‘70s and was not penned for the film, but it just seemed awfully fitting for Anno to choose a song with lyrics made up of things like ‘If I could only have one wish, I want to grow wings and fly into a sky without sadness’ when Unit-01 was sprouting wings and pulling all human souls into ‘a world without sadness’…

The fact that Shinji was embracing Rei when he (according to this probably totally wrong theory) let the rest of the world end almost makes sense in a strange way, in that it seemed to mirror his father’s Yui-related plans… (running away from the world, but running to that one person; perhaps to be followed by Anno killing Rei off and having Shinji falling into Gendo-esque misery... well, my fingers are crossed anyway)

So yeah. I was buzzing with joy when I thought about all of this. I felt sure that the Third Impact scene was a masterful chunk of concentrated irony, and not just sentimentality.

…

But then I went to Youtube to find a recording of ‘Tsubasa wo Kudasai’, and found myself reading the comments beneath the video. Many of these comments were filled with inane drivel about how ‘OMG they are so cute together’ and ‘this part in the movie is sooo romantic Shinji finally got balls Shinji and Rei forever x’ and the like.

Well, it goes without saying that this sort of sugary sweet nonsense makes me feel rather ill. At first I just rolled my eyes and thought ‘marharhar, they just don’t know what’s really going on’…

… but then I began to get worried that maybe these people were right, and there really is no irony at work in the scene. Maybe Third Impact was not being triggered by Shinji’s selfishness and fear/hatred of the world, but purely by the technicalities of Lilith/Angel/Adam/Rei/etc. fusion. And indeed, if this is the case, then all of the romanticism and heroism of the scene was depressingly (IMO) straight-faced and not ironic in the least.

After all, we aren’t necessarily shown Shinji making a conscious decision to end the world, and we can’t be at all certain that he even knew what was happening. And if Anno wanted to suggest that Shinji was escaping from the rest of the world, would it not be more visually effective for him to join Rei in the ocean of blackness ('I can only exist here') rather than pull her out of it and tell her how great she is...?

I am not sure what to think. Of course, I’m hoping this is cleared up in the coming films, but at the moment I’m feeling a little worried. On the one hand, that scene might be incredibly ironic, with the supposed ‘heroism’ and ‘romance’ and singing masking what is actually apocalyptic selfishness. On the other hand, perhaps it’s not ironic at all, and it's just sugary sentimentality.

Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?

[If any of this is facepalm-worthy stupidity, I apologise :( ]

[marmotgirl]

Dude, I thank you for articulating precisely what has been troubling me about this for the past month

[sean_sean_sean_sean]

Dude, I thank you for articulating precisely what has been troubling me about this for the past month

No problem!

I was worried that everything I typed up was complete nonsense. Glad to know someone else has been wondering the same thing

[Teague]

I'm partial to Impact born of Selfishness born of Desperation myself, it's just the Eva way,

[wonderluster]

You just blew my mind and annihilated my Eva.

Sean, I appreciate that you took the time to help unravel the minds of others, good job.

[Mr. Tines]

After all, we aren’t necessarily shown Shinji making a conscious decision to end the world

as opposed to the original

Shinji:
Nobody wants me. So, everybody just die.

you mean?

[EvaCub]

@seanx4

I was thinking it might be a GREAT thing that Shinji intiated Insturmentality and Third Impact early
this way
1. Shinji (if not interupted) could quickly say "REJECTED" and everyone could be seperate beings, this being because at the moment he initiates third impact hes in a "good mood" parsay
2. SELEEs version of 3I can be shown in Q if we get that far

i think the scene is up for interp

personally i agree with the parells and irony


EDIT: this is my first REAL post in awhile
but we wont know i guess till Q

[User-iel]

@sean_sean_sean_sean - Well, seems right. Now if you were to have The Key... Which is to notice

juxtapose images of the world blowing to pieces with an image of Shinji and Rei embracing, at peace, with Shinji saying ‘none of that matters anymore… it’s alright here…’

can, and should be both interpretations at once. Shinji seems to have lots of unfocused desire behind his directed rage. This is what you get in sending a boy to do a man's job. As the synch ratio goes up, Eva can become much like 'the Monkey's paw.' The pilot desires, and the Eva interprets, then acts. During Reiscue, Shinji's physical motions become increasingly separate from the physical motions of 01. Shogouki acts out his intentions, but he is swimming, clawing, stretching and generally using Method to sell us the story. There is no 'SMITE' control on the induction yokes, but Shogouki takes the lead, and runs with it for her epic beam attack. Shogouki probably also supplies the knowledge that is needed to open the core, and not just shatter Zeruel. He has set Eva free in exchange for his wish. So Shinji really can't appreciate the collateral damage he is asking for. Most of his generation at school don't 'get' the fire-and-brimstone lecture about 2I. And he certainly, in that moment anyway, doesn't care. And Misato is the TOTAL hot blooded mech pilot, BTW. Cheering for her own destruction? In the name of manly emotion? Think ahead LOL!

[Armitage]

Yes , I have to agree here . Eva is the god-like trigger and remains that way because it is the ultimate potentiality that Shinji taps into . In a sense , the Eva is making reality reflect the mode of Shinji's mind and thus the depression and void are to become the reality of the world .

This is probably why Kaworu stops this emoness with his spear and why he's so obsessed about making Shinji happy because it is that subjective feeling that will determine objective reality .

I think that it's not coincidental how third impact is occurring , but Anno does not miss the opportunity to hide it under the thick veneer of the disgusting Shinji x reiness (we all know it should always be Asuka =P) .

But if the original poster , then , is correct that the Evangelion is ironically going to destroy the world because of the instability in Shinji's personality , then what can we say about Rebuild as judgment ?

In one sense , post-modern culture allows Shinji to do this . If we take it to be a fantasy setting , and one concerned with allegory in our own culture (or more specifically , Japanese culture) , then the closed universe that Shinji accomplishes both in the original series and in rebuild with the eva-potentiality is a representation of the awesome power of today's culture to extol subjective reality as sufficient in creating objective reality . That is to say that in our advancement in science and technology (which harkens to the tree of knowledge) have allowed our culture to be progressive enough to simulate reality (think of the advancements in HD as well as the modability found on the internet and through games now) then an extrapolation of this can be found in Shinji who refuses the world and , by his own will , creates something for himself .

Does Anno really agree with this though ? Part of my thesis would be that just as the final scene is ironic , then his view on post-modernism is also ironic if not cynical . Just as we saw in the original series , end of eva , and through Kaworu's interception in Rebuild , Anno has consistently rejected third impact in its annihilative form .

I think that the last two episodes of the original series do translate into Anno's own search for a kind of Cognitive Therapy (c.f. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_therapy) so that one can properly cope with Reality rather than retreat into the Dirac Sea of the internet , pornography , medication , suicide , among other things that are plauging Japanese culture (c.f. also the choice of Beautiful World as deconstructive towards this post-modern idea of shedding reality through our omnipotence in science) . Thus , I think that the last scene is indeed ironic and is supported not just in what was said by user-iel above , but also by the thematic currents (specifically by Anno's commentary on the post-modern Japan) that were there in the original series and EoE

[LiLi]

I'd say deciding you don't care what happens to the whole world as long as you get to save one girl you care about falls rather nicely in the category of Apocalyptic (literally) Selfishness, don't you feel so?

I don't really think Instrumentality per se is about running away from others... to me, it's about running away from the pain and solitude we mutually inflict on each other. It's wanting to overcome that solitude by overcoming the walls of the heart which separate us from others, making us into individuals. It's renouncing individuality to melt into one big condensate, as a way to overcome the Hedgehog Dilemma. It's the ultimate, absolute union.

Perhaps, it's more of a way to run away from oneself.

Besides, as you said, Gendo's wish for Instrumentality came about because of his wish to be reunited with his wife...

PS I think the "it's OK here" bit should perhaps rather be translated as "it doesn't matter anymore/that's enough/forget it".

[sean_sean_sean_sean]

Thanks for the responses, everyone!

@Mr Tines

After all, we aren’t necessarily shown Shinji making a conscious decision to end the world

as opposed to the original

Shinji:
Nobody wants me. So, everybody just die.

you mean?

That was what I was referring to, yes

Perhaps I shouldn't have said it was a 'conscious decision', necessarily, but my point was that EoE made it very clear that Third Impact was a fulfillment of Shinji's wishes. That is still the impression I've been getting in Rebuild ('I don't care what happens to the world' / 'all to grant the wishes of one person' / 'that doesn't matter anymore... it's alright here'), but all of the heroism/cheeriness of that scene is so heavy that I have been beginning to wonder whether this was actually intended.

@User-iel: I really like your whole post. And I'm inclined to agree with just about all of it.

And Misato is the TOTAL hot blooded mech pilot, BTW. Cheering for her own destruction? In the name of manly emotion? Think ahead LOL!

Exactly what I was thinking

@Armitage:

Yes , I have to agree here . Eva is the god-like trigger and remains that way because it is the ultimate potentiality that Shinji taps into . In a sense , the Eva is making reality reflect the mode of Shinji's mind and thus the depression and void are to become the reality of the world .

That's a great way of putting it.

I think that it's not coincidental how third impact is occurring , but Anno does not miss the opportunity to hide it under the thick veneer of the disgusting Shinji x reiness

Yeah, even though the irony and selfishness make that scene much easier to stomach, it still doesn't completely undermine the sentimentality, which is a shame (though if your complaint is just that it's Rei instead of Asuka, I'm sorry for misinterpreting)

@Lili

I'd say deciding you don't care what happens to the whole world as long as you get to save one girl you care about falls rather nicely in the category of Apocalyptic (literally) Selfishness, don't you feel so?

Oh, definitely!

The only thing is that - when Shinji says 'I don't care about the world, but I'll at least save her', does he really know what is going to happen? And when the world does begin to blow to pieces, can we be certain that this is Unit-01 acting out Shinji's deepest wishes?

My only worry was that Third Impact might not have been meant to be a fulfillment of Shinji's wishes, but rather... the possibility that the only thing on his mind was Rei-saving, and Third Impact was merely the result of the technicalities of Lilith/Adam/Rei/Angel fusion (which Shinji was presumably unaware of)

If Shinji was aware that Third Impact would occur, or if Third Impact is indeed a case of Unit-01 fulfilling Shinji's wishes, then that's great! I'm just worried that perhaps Third Impact was no more than a side-effect of Rei-saving that Shinji might not have even intended...

[Sorry if that makes no sense :(]

I don't really think Instrumentality per se is about running away from others... to me, it's about running away from the pain and solitude we mutually inflict on each other.

I absolutely agree with this, but what I meant to say I found jarring at first was that Instrumentality begins once Shinji has established what looks like a solid bond with another person. If someone was in a miserable state, that sort of bond might well be the thing which would help them out of it.

So I found that jarring at first. But then I began to realise that it was not a problem at all, since Shinji is still running away from everyone else--- the hurt that the rest of the world inflicts on him, etc.

Indeed, I felt that this worked rather well in that it seems to make Shinji look very similar to Gendo...

PS I think the "it's OK here" bit should perhaps rather be translated as "it doesn't matter anymore/that's enough/forget it".

Oh, I'm sorry :(

I know nothing about Japanese I'm afraid, so you're definitely right.

[User-iel]

I like the direction espoused so far. Armitage Has impressed me with

representation of the awesome power of today's culture to extol subjective reality as sufficient in creating objective reality .

as this seems to bookend nicely with Anno's past stated concerns for the interpretation of his story as regards to the context of Japanese fandom and culture in his own time. This is his refinement for the current generation.

@LiLi and sean_sean_sean_sean - Apocalyptic selfishness, indeed. And once noted that

in that it seems to make Shinji look very similar to Gendo...

I think you have recovered another fragment of the plot coming in the conclusion. Perhaps Yui::Gendo as Rei::Shinji becomes an 'initiation into the family business'. Conventional heroic plotline will be Asuka attempting to turn Shinji toward herself.

[CATO]

I don't really think Instrumentality per se is about running away from others... to me, it's about running away from the pain and solitude we mutually inflict on each other.

This can be argued. Pain and solitude implicitly exist in human relationships --it's just their nature--. If the only reason we have to trigger 3I is to get rid of these emotions, then we're just in denial and running away from each other.

If all humanity is melt into a giant communion, we can naively believe we destroyed the barriers that prevented us from being happy and close to each other, but what we really have done is to destroy ourselves. These barriers, the images and preconceptions that we have of others, are what makes us human, no matter how painful that is.

An interesting debate would be to know if 3I could be used to evolve humanity for better reasons, once we have accepted ourselves.

If Shinji was aware that Third Impact would occur, or if Third Impact is indeed a case of Unit-01 fulfilling Shinji's wishes, then that's great! I'm just worried that perhaps Third Impact was no more than a side-effect of Rei-saving that Shinji might not have even intended...

My opinion is that 3I was the result of Shinji's wishes, if not conscious at least subconsciously, which means it was his choice. Out of pure selfishness, just because he couldn't save Asuka and wasn't ready to lose a girl reminiscent of his dead mother.
Sorry, I don't buy Shinji/Rei... well I do, but only from an Oedipal context.

Great thread!

[LiLi]

If all humanity is melt into a giant communion, we can naively believe we destroyed the barriers that prevented us from being happy and close to each other, but what we really have done is to destroy ourselves. These barriers, the images and preconceptions that we have of others, are what makes us human, no matter how painful that is.

An interesting debate would be to know if 3I could be used to evolve humanity for better reasons, once we have accepted ourselves.

The above seems a popular interpretation around here and likely the prevailing view that transpires from EoE itself, at least... however, I have been thinking for a while now that such a take on the Giant Communion deal (and on what it is that makes us human) is also in itself debatable...

I think I see what you mean, however I guess to me, a more straightforward way to run away from others would be becoming a "hikikomori" or a hermit, refusing all and any interaction with other people... but that would presumably entail not fearing solitude more than you fear interaction with others. Ultimately, I think it was despising himself and fearing solitude that largely set Shinji on the path to Instrumentality. I also think EoTV stresses that what he fears is rejection from others - this fear seems likely born of his own disgust with himself.

Also, AFAIK strictly speaking the above applies to Shinji's case - in Gendo's case the motivation behind his wish for Instrumentality was actually, IIRC, to recover the pivotal relationship in his life.

I was under the impression SEELE saw 3I as a way to evolve Mankind...

Conventional heroic plotline will be Asuka attempting to turn Shinji toward herself.

What subversion of such a trope would you expect Anno to implement? :curious:

[Sailor Star Dust]

Once I started thinking about this, I began to get a little excited. Before, I had been worried that this scene was no more than shameless schmaltz. But now, I started to realise that perhaps Shinji’s selfishness and hatred of the world was once again manifesting itself in an apocalyptic manner. Maybe, I wondered, this whole scene was much more ironic than I had originally thought.

Considering EoE had seemingly happy music (the song itself is happy, the lyrics are about suicide) when Third Impact--the end of the world as it were--starts and throughout Instrumentality kicking in, it's not that much of a stretch to think Anno's using irony once more.

Anyway, I agree that the sequence IS meant to have some kind of ironic implications to it instead of (just) flat-out WAFF by Anno like people think. ("Oh, I'll give you guys Rei/Shinji WAFF...but it's at a price.")

Overall, it's not too surprising even THIS take of 3rd Impact was due to selfishness, although it was a different reason then EoE. Guess we'll have to see what the "real" 3rd Impact's circumstances in 3.0/4.0 will be like instead of the botched attempt.

[sean_sean_sean_sean]

Considering EoE had seemingly happy music (the song itself is happy, the lyrics are about suicide) when Third Impact--the end of the world as it were--starts and throughout Instrumentality kicking in, it's not that much of a stretch to think Anno's using irony once more.

Definitely.

I suppose I just wasn't so sure at first since - while 'Komm Susser Tod' plays when much more nightmarish stuff is going on, with enormous vaginas and people screaming and exploding and Shinji explicitly saying 'they can all just die' - the 'Tsubasa' scene didn't have any of the nightmarish stuff, and is on the surface much more straightforward heroism/romanticism.

But yeah- the notion of selfishness destroying the world is just, in itself, I think, a very pleasing idea, and it charges the finale with a strange sort of energy that it simply wouldn't have (in my opinion) if we were to take it at face value.

("Oh, I'll give you guys Rei/Shinji WAFF...but it's at a price.")

Mehehehe...

[CATO]

And Misato is the TOTAL hot blooded mech pilot, BTW. Cheering for her own destruction? In the name of manly emotion? Think ahead LOL!

That part of the scene is very intriguing. Misato always has been sort of a "Shinji enabler" (lol) but fervent cheering to the point of suicide? This particular scene plus some other parts of rebuild gave me the impression (please forgive me) that Misato was in love with Shinji, in a more romantic way than the weird/lust way in TV/EoE. Now let the flaming begin.

[LiLi]

This particular scene plus some other parts of rebuild gave me the impression (please forgive me) that Misato was in love with Shinji, in more romantic way than the weird/lust way in TV/EoE. Now let the flaming begin.

I'm curious - would you mind elaborating on that?

[Sailor Star Dust]

CATO: The way I look at that scene in 2.0, Misato didn't realize until Ritsuko pointed it out that Shinji's actions would screw over the rest of humanity. She was simply cheering him on (though I still think it was mostly Yui in terms of MOVING the Eva, not that Misato would know that) because she wants him to find his own reason for piloting.

And to be honest, I haven't noticed much if any of the Misato has feelings for Shinji because of her father stuff from the series/EoE, except for her "I'm not going to "put the moves" on a kid!" and "feel free to take advantage of anything here." lines being intact.

The hand-holding bit during Shinji and Misato's visit to Lilith, for instance, struck me as Misato wanting to reassure Shinji and explain the importance of piloting, not anything relating seduction with how sex=comfort like in 23' or EoE.

[carla]

i haven't read you guys' replies, just skimmed through them really, but i just wanted to state my initial opinion on the topic before delving more deeply:

@sean-- very interesting way to put things. i know i went through all these back-and-forth "why oh why are things so different?" feelings when i first watched the scene, and i'm sure most people did. it's definitely a valid inquiry and makes a lot of sense.

song lyrics notwithstanding (i haven't seen them and i probably won't, i don't believe lyrics in soundtracks have to be taken as having a direct connection to the plot itself unless the media in question is a musical-- they may give a general idea but i think the songs are often more about the ambiance of the scene and not necessarily directly telling you "hey, this is what's going on"), after much thought i concluded that both third impacts are very similar, yet different. yes, they are both in fact born out of Shinji's selfishness. the difference lies in the motive for that selfishness: in EoE Shinji directly wanted the world to end because the world had taken everything for him and never allowed him to be happy. in rebuild he does still have something that will make him happy (Rei's existence) and if the world has to end for him to have that one thing, then he doesn't care if the world ends. selfishness was still the trigger, but causing the world's end wasn't the primary goal.

basically, i think this is anno showing us that there are many different ways 3I (and with it instrumentality) can come about. despite the fact that us long-time fans have come to associate instrumentality with Shinji's running away from pain and his negative feelings towards the world as it happened in EoE (and we are bound to go "OMG WTF IS GOING ON THIS IS NOT MY EVAAAAA" when presented with a different choice), the fact is that third impact is a process. a documented process at that. take some adam, mix it with some lilith and give it some form of human control and BOOM, humanity turns into mush. we tend to focus so much on the psychological aspect-- which, admittedly, is awesome-- but we tend to forget that, while Shinji did have the choice in his hands, and we saw everything from his PoV, third impact started happening for reasons completely external to Shinji. the world doesn't end simply because Shinji wants it to... if SEELE and gendo hadn't put the necessary pieces into play, none of it would've happened and all this discussion would've been a moot point.

i don't think the fluffy aspect of it was irony, i just think this was anno reminding us of that: instrumentality as a process does not depend on Shinji himself. it always just happens to fall in his hands because unit 01 is always involved, but it's not the way it has to be.

yes, the dark shadow of "OMG Shinji/Rei YAY THEY'RE SO CUTE!" puts a lot of us off, but as for why? well, rebuild!Shinji is not in the same state of mind as EoE!Shinji was. and neither is anno. and we can always see the selfishness angle and realize not everything is fluff and puppies and rainbows. there's still some of that old, dark EVA in there somewhere. and i, for one, choose to believe it wasn't about Rei per se, but about Shinji not being able to let go of the one person he still had, regardless of who it was.

just my opinion after rewatching the scene a bunch of times.

as far as Misato goes... i have no clue. to be fair, she did cheer Shinji on before ritsuko mentioned that the end of the world was imminent. my guess is, she didn't really know 3I was about to begin at that point, she just thought Shinji pulling Rei out of zeruel would finish off the angel.