The Last Train Station Scene

[Konja7]

I think that the meaning of the ending got out of control when the Mari/Moyoco started (debunked) and there were a lot of Goodbye Evangelion posters as a promo for the movie.

Well, my interpretation that Shinji would cut contact with Asuka, Rei and Kaworu happened before I read the Mari/Moyoco theory.

This was due to the train station, which really gives to me the vibe that Shinji (along Mari) will go to find his own place, while Asuka, Kaworu and Rei take the opposite direction.

I know Shinji believe he will die in the Instrumentality, but I feel the "goodbye" feeling in it was more than that. Shinji help his friends to "move on" in an emotional level too. So, I don't think he will return to live with them.

At the end, I think this is intentionally left to the interpretation of each person.

[Meldon_Elraenhie]

Thank you very much for your reply.

I understand that without a scene where we can see Shinji arriving at the third village, this debate would probably keep on for ages.

I have a few questions regarding your interpretation. Why do you think the characters have moved on? I mean, Shinji tries to give them happiness and a place to belong, but why would they think, “Oh, okay, now it is time to stop hanging around with Shinji” or why would Asuka think “Oh yeah, Shinji and I confessed but from now on I will just keep on living by myself and will not bother about what happened before.”

In fact, Rei dialogue with Shinji is important to consider that the characters do not want to leave Shinji behind. She does not leave until he reassures her that he will return.

I would say that the characters, thanks to Shinji, find a place to belong and where they can find happiness in the long run, but I do not think that they accept that Shinji is not going to be present in their lives.

Furthermore, for Kaworu and Rei, it is a bit difficult to know where they go. Some people argue that they do not have a physical form anymore, and that is why their goodbye scenes are a bit different to that of Asuka.

Focusing on Asuka, we have the subtle detail of “sayonara”, the magic spell to see each other again. No sayonara is present in the other scenes, and besides, no shutter is closed in Asuka’s scene. While they are just subtle details, everything points in the same direction.

Second question, where would Shinji realistically go? He calls home only two places in the entire RoE saga: Misato’s apartment and Kensuke’s house. The concept of home is essential in Eva, and therefore, it would be expected that they head there. I mean, it is as logical as to think that after the EoE finale, Asuka and Shinji will probably take shelter in Misato’s apartment or will check it at least.

Finally, I understand your last point. There have always been ambiguous things in Eva. Would the rest of humanity come back after 3I in EoE? It is never shown, although it is likely. However, I do not think this ending is thought to provoke the same reaction as inception’s ending. I think that there are too many elements, being Mari the first, that make other possibilities far less likely or impossible.

[Konja7]

I have a few questions regarding your interpretation. Why do you think the characters have moved on? I mean, Shinji tries to give them happiness and a place to belong, but why would they think, “Oh, okay, now it is time to stop hanging around with Shinji” or why would Asuka think “Oh yeah, Shinji and I confessed but from now on I will just keep on living by myself and will not bother about what happened before.”

My interpretation is that Shinji has noticed that Asuka, Kaworu and Rei have become stagnant, while their feelings toward him are part of that. Therefore, Shinji is going to stay away from them so that they can find their own place.

In itself, I don't think Asuka, Kaworu and Rei have completely "move on" from Shinji at the end of the Instrumentality (that's why Asuka still blushes) and they clearly care about Shinji. However, I think point is that they need to "move on" and start new lives (without Shinji).

Second question, where would Shinji realistically go? He calls home only two places in the entire RoE saga: Misato’s apartment and Kensuke’s house. The concept of home is essential in Eva, and therefore, it would be expected that they head there. I mean, it is as logical as to think that after the EoE finale, Asuka and Shinji will probably take shelter in Misato’s apartment or will check it at least.

I think the point is that Shinji will look for his own place in the world too. Mari is there so he doesn't have to do this alone.

Honestly, unlike Rei Q, Shinji never seems to have really felt at home in Village-3. Shinji found it a nice place and learned many things there, but he never seemed to feel totally comfortable. So, I think Shinji is still going to find his home in the world.

[Konja7]

But, does his colleagues allow him to do that? Well, he lies to almost all of them: To Asuka, we have the past tense + Mari interaction with ejection of Asuka's entry plug before she could react to anything. He lies to Kaworu, telling him he will not be lonely. He lies to Rei, when tells her that he has found a place too and will be rescued by Mari. All for them.

Honestly, I don't think Shinji lied to Kaworu. His friendship promise seems to be in the sense that they will always be friends, not necessarily that they will see each other again.

In itself, I think Kaworu could know Shinji will sacrifice himself, but part of Kaworu's development is accepting Shinji's decision to carry this burden.

Kaworu or Rei could likely take the place of Shinji's plac as a sacrifice to restore the Earth, but Shinji doesn't want that.


Shinji definitely lies to Rei so that she can continue without worrying about his well-being. Interestingly, even though Shinji pretends that he will survive, Rei and Shinji still say goodbye as whether they won't see each other again.

[Meldon_Elraenhie]

Thank you again for your reply.

I hope you do not mind me pushing the topic further. I do not want to confront other people interpretations endlessly. I know people have different views. However, I am interested in the source of your interpretation.

You say that the characters have become stagnant. It is a strong statement, and I wonder where you got this feeling from, as I can't point towards a scene or dialogue that even hints at that.

Asuka, as we know from the Eva Extra Manga, has been longing for Shinji even after 14 years, and she keeps caring for him in 3.0+1.0. It is not stagnation. It is love...or does love have a timeframe? Besides, Mari keeps her teasing her regarding that topic. Due to different reasons, Asuka opens herself a bit to Shinji, and he reciprocates. I am sorry, but I do not see where the stagnation might come from. If there were any, I am sure that Mari would be telling her, “you have to move on” instead of “how is everything with puppy-boy.”

Regarding Kaworu and Rei, things are more complicated. I am not sure they will return to the real world. They do not have a physical form, and following Kaworu and Rei departure, a shutter is shown. Besides, Kaworu leaves where Kaji is, which is clearly not the real world. When I say that Shinji is going to the third village to reunite with everybody, I tend to leave Kaworu and Rei aside.

However, having said that, let me reply to some details of their scenes. When Kaworu asks if Shinji would be lonely, he is in the same posture as on the beach, which denotes sadness. His facial expression is sad and clearly does not match the “I will be fine line”. If kaworu knows the truth, we can only speculate, but Shinji’s reaction is apparent. In Rei scene, the impression is that it is a forever goodbye because it is just after that scene that Shinji will perform the neon genesis. But I think that the dialogue with her was evident because he tried to reassure her and she left thinking it was not a goodbye forever.

Finally, I am also surprised that you mention several times that Mari is alongside Shinji. I believe this is one of the strongest arguments favouring Shinji going to the third village again, as I argued before. What is your view of this idea? I mean, it seems like you think that Mari is going with Shinji to a new place where they can settle as if she did not have any attachment to the other characters. Mari has lived with Asuka for 14 years, and we know her insistence on Asuka and Shinji closeness. Besides, she will be the new guardian, the new Misato...and it would make sense to reunite Shinji with his friends. What would not make sense is that they go to a new place, leaving all their previous lives behind for no reason at all. Both of them care for their friends and the people they love.

Oh! And I forgot. Shinji uses the expression “tadaima” in Kensuke’s house. He only used it previously in Misato’s apartment. The translation in the subs is “I am home”, and it is a line Shinji has always struggled to say.

[Konja7]

Asuka, as we know from the Eva Extra Manga, has been longing for Shinji even after 14 years, and she keeps caring for him in 3.0+1.0. It is not stagnation. It is love...or does love have a timeframe? Besides, Mari keeps her teasing her regarding that topic. Due to different reasons, Asuka opens herself a bit to Shinji, and he reciprocates. I am sorry, but I do not see where the stagnation might come from. If there were any, I am sure that Mari would be telling her, “you have to move on” instead of “how is everything with puppy-boy.”

Honestly, when I read Eva Extra Manga, I feel this reassured my interpretation that Asuka was still trapped in the past and she needs to "move on" from Shinji.

Before reading that, I applied this idea mainly to Kaworu and Rei.

However, having said that, let me reply to some details of their scenes. When Kaworu asks if Shinji would be lonely, he is in the same posture as on the beach, which denotes sadness. His facial expression is sad and clearly does not match the “I will be fine line”. If kaworu knows the truth, we can only speculate, but Shinji’s reaction is apparent. In Rei scene, the impression is that it is a forever goodbye because it is just after that scene that Shinji will perform the neon genesis. But I think that the dialogue with her was evident because he tried to reassure her and she left thinking it was not a goodbye forever.

I think Shinji id sad to say goodbye to Asuka. However, I think his "I will be fine" line toward Kaworu is because he has accepted this situation and won't be consumed by sadness.

It's true that Shinji pretends he will suvive to reassure Rei. However, I feel there is a forever goodbye from both (Shinji and Rei) in that conversation even although Rei thinks Shinji will survive.

Of course, if we assume Rei (and Kaworu) don't return to Earth, that converstion would be a forever goodbye regardless of Shinji's survival

Finally, I am also surprised that you mention several times that Mari is alongside Shinji. I believe this is one of the strongest arguments favouring Shinji going to the third village again, as I argued before. What is your view of this idea? I mean, it seems like you think that Mari is going with Shinji to a new place where they can settle as if she did not have any attachment to the other characters. Mari has lived with Asuka for 14 years, and we know her insistence on Asuka and Shinji closeness. Besides, she will be the new guardian, the new Misato...and it would make sense to reunite Shinji with his friends. What would not make sense is that they go to a new place, leaving all their previous lives behind for no reason at all. Both of them care for their friends and the people they love.

I don't think Mari will be a new guardian, since Shinji and Mari will likely have the same age. They seem more partners in equal terms.

I feel we see Mari's goodbye to Asuka in the Instrumemtality, because she will also look a new place.

[Meldon_Elraenhie]

Honestly, when I read Eva Extra Manga, I feel this reassured my interpretation that Asuka was still trapped in the past and she needs to "move on" from Shinji.

So you think that the point of the manga is that Asuka needs to move on? I am afraid I completely disagree with that. The point of the manga is to show that indeed Asuka still has feelings for Shinji. To add an extra layer to that and think it is something Asuka has to move on, is something that is not implied in the manga and I am still curious to know where you got that feeling. In the manga, Mari helps Asuka to that regard, as she knows Asuka’s feelings. She changes the whole operation and makes the suggestion of the clothes changes to Asuka, which Asuka accepts.

In the end, is a love/hope message, intended to deep down in Asuka’s feelings, as sometimes in the movies it is disguised by her behaviour. But to move on? I think that if you analyse the plot and characters interaction, you cannot arrive to that conclusion. Perhaps, the other way around, and that means to think that everything RoE related is somehow transmitting a move on message and then analyse the plot with that lens, is what makes you feel that way. However, I believe this kind of way to analyse RoE ends in misunderstandings.

I don't think Mari will be a new guardian, since Shinji and Mari will likely have the same age. They seem more partners in equal terms.

I feel we see Mari's goodbye to Asuka in the Instrumemtality, because she will also look a new place.

Mari is implied to be the new guardian in a visual and in a plot-wise way. She had some kind of role that way with Asuka and it is extended to Shinji at the end after Misato’s sacrifice. Besides, Mari does not have the same age as Shinji. We see Mari in previous scenes of Gendo’s life, and she is even present at Shinji’s birth. She is at least as old as Gendo, now free from the curse of Eva.

The fact is that plot-wise, Mari cannot be his partner. She is much older, she has been trying to make Asuka and Shinji partners, and Shinji calls her Mari-San a few seconds before the train scene, not to say that he did not interacted with her and did not know her name until half of this movie. Furthermore, she would be betraying Asuka and we know from the manga and movies’ interactions she will not do that. To keep believing in your views you have to avoid all of these facts

Mari’s farewell to Asuka is set in the same line as Shinji. She thought she might not see her again, and it almost was true, as she said to Shinji in the anti universe beach when she finds him.

[Melkor]

Mari is implied to be the new guardian in a visual and in a plot-wise way. She had some kind of role that way with Asuka and it is extended to Shinji at the end after Misato’s sacrifice. Besides, Mari does not have the same age as Shinji. We see Mari in previous scenes of Gendo’s life, and she is even present at Shinji’s birth. She is at least as old as Gendo, now free from the curse of Eva.

The fact is that plot-wise, Mari cannot be his partner. She is much older, she has been trying to make Asuka and Shinji partners, and Shinji calls her Mari-San a few seconds before the train scene, not to say that he did not interacted with her and did not know her name until half of this movie. Furthermore, she would be betraying Asuka and we know from the manga and movies’ interactions she will not do that. To keep believing in your views you have to avoid all of these facts.

If Mari is supposed to be interpreted as Shinji's new guardian, then doesn't that sort of undermine and defeat the whole purpose of the final scene at the train station? Because in that case, her holding Shinji's hand should also be interpreted in a motherly/guardian sort of way, like a mom holding her child's hand. That scene with Shinji as an adult is meant to show us that he has finally grown up and matured. That seems a little contradictory for the scene to be telling us "Look, Shinji's an adult now! He's finally all grown up and mature!", only to then turn around and say "Jk! Shinji is still a kid on the inside that needs his hand held by his mommy!". I'm not saying that this means them holding hands in that final scene can only possibly be interpreted as romantic (it could just be platonic), but that a motherly/guardian interpretation of their relationship makes even less sense when you consider what the final scene was going for.

Also, we can't say with 100% certainty that Mari is the exact same woman as the one that Gendo and Yui knew in college. There are things in 2.0 that Mari says and does which would seem to contradict this and imply that she is actually younger. This Mari we see in the Rebuilds could just be a clone of that woman from the photo, much like how Rei and Asuka are also clones.

[Meldon_Elraenhie]

If Mari is supposed to be interpreted as Shinji's new guardian, then doesn't that sort of undermine and defeat the whole purpose of the final scene at the train station? Because in that case, her holding Shinji's hand should also be interpreted in a motherly/guardian sort of way, like a mom holding her child's hand. That scene with Shinji as an adult is meant to show us that he has finally grown up and matured. That seems a little contradictory for the scene to be telling us "Look, Shinji's an adult now! He's finally all grown up and mature!", only to then turn around and say "Jk! Shinji is still a kid on the inside that needs his hand held by his mommy!". I'm not saying that this means them holding hands in that final scene can only possibly be interpreted as romantic (it could just be platonic), but that a motherly/guardian interpretation of their relationship makes even less sense when you consider what the final scene was going for.

I do not think that holding hands contradict Shinji’s growth. Shinji’s growth has happened earlier in the movie, when he decides to help his friends and undo everything his father did. We do not need the train scene to know that. What we see in the last scene is how Shinji visually is an adult, so is free of the curse, and they add the little filtering with Mari as another, definitive proof of his maturity. The hand holding is explained earlier in the film, and its meaning is “the magic to get along” Interestingly, hand holding with Shinji is depicted with Kaworu, Rei and Mari, but no with Asuka. Even at the end of 3.0, when they initially wanted that Asuka grabbed Shinji’s hand, Anno changed that to grab only his arm/wrist. This adds to the other differences between the different goodbyes to the pilots, intended to show the different relationship that Asuka and Shinji have in comparison to the others (ie romantic love).

Having a motherly/big sister figure is not detrimental to any kind of maturity or growth, and I do not know how you would justify the opposite. The hand holding of Mari and Shinji is just another symbol of their friendship, as happened with Kaworu and Rei. Trying to add any kind of other love (platonic or not) is not supported by anything in the plot.

The last scene is just the transition from the AU to the real world, and is depicted in Anno’s hometown as a personal farewell to them. The presence of Mari and Shinji there is because they are the ones left in the AU, so I do not see why her figure as a big sister, let’s say, undermines anything in that setting.

Also, we can't say with 100% certainty that Mari is the exact same woman as the one that Gendo and Yui knew in college. There are things in 2.0 that Mari says and does which would seem to contradict this and imply that she is actually younger. This Mari we see in the Rebuilds could just be a clone of that woman from the photo, much like how Rei and Asuka are also clones.

There is nothing implied in any material that she is not the same or that she is not the one from Gendo’s memories. Mari calls Gendo “Gendo-Kun” and in her dialogue with fuyutsuki it is clearly implied she is the same. She might be or not a clone, but even if she is, she is the same person we see in the memories, and everything is implied to that regard: from her dialogues with Gendo and Fuyutsuki to the comparisons between her actions with Gendo/Yui and Shinji.

And do not forget that Shinji calls her Mari-San, quite important detail.

[nerv bae]

The hand holding is explained earlier in the film, and its meaning is “the magic to get along” Interestingly, hand holding with Shinji is depicted with Kaworu, Rei and Mari, but no with Asuka.

Shinji also holds hands with Misato in terminal dogma in 1.11 (not sure which side of the debate this supports; just popped into my head).

Honestly, when I read Eva Extra Manga, I feel this reassured my interpretation that Asuka was still trapped in the past and she needs to "move on" from Shinji.

Good topic on Eva Extra manga in case anyone here hasn't read it.

[Melkor]

There is nothing implied in any material that she is not the same or that she is not the one from Gendo’s memories. Mari calls Gendo “Gendo-Kun” and in her dialogue with fuyutsuki it is clearly implied she is the same. She might be or not a clone, but even if she is, she is the same person we see in the memories, and everything is implied to that regard: from her dialogues with Gendo and Fuyutsuki to the comparisons between her actions with Gendo/Yui and Shinji.

And do not forget that Shinji calls her Mari-San, quite important detail.

The reason he calls her san is because he doesn't know her all that well. They just met, so she is still a stranger to him. That's the proper way to address someone you don't know all that well in Japan. Shinji is a very polite person by nature, so of course he is going to refer to her as san. He even called Rei and Asuka san at a few points, so that doesn't really mean much. The choker on Shinji's neck implies that not much time has passed since the previous scene where they were at the beach, so they did not spend that much time together in the Anti-universe. If the train station scene was right after some huge time skip, why would Shinji have still been wearing the choker for all those years?

There is plenty of evidence to imply that Mari is a clone. First of all, Rei, Asuka, and Mari all have last names ending in "nami" which could be to denote them as clones. Asuka's last name in the original was Soryu, but in the Rebuilds was changed to Shikinami along with her backstory. I don't think this is a coincidence. Following this pattern of Rei Ayanami and Asuka Shikinami being clones, it stands to reason then that Mari Makinami is one as well. That would explain why the woman we see in Gendo's flashback looks just like Mari, but the woman we see in the photograph (which was presumably taken at a later point after Gendo and Yui met) looks older than the current Mari in the Rebuilds, who has the body of a teenager instead of an adult. The woman Gendo knew was the original Mari (Maria Iscariot?) while the one we have been following is a clone of her. Perhaps the original Mari might have also implanted some of her knowledge and memories into her clone/daughter as well, which would explain how Mari knew so much about Fuyutsuki and the Evas, yet 2.0 implies that that was her first time piloting one.

Of all the explanations for Mari, this is one makes the most sense to me because it ha the least amount of holes and contradictions. Mari being the same woman Gendo knew doesn't make sense because it contradicts a lot of the things about Mari from 2.0. In 2.0, she is referred to as the problem **child** and says that nobody told her how rough synchronizing with an Eva would be after her fight with the Third Angel, implying that that was her first time piloting an Eva, meaning she couldn't have had the Curse of the Eva (which stops her aging) yet at that point. She also says that she doesn't like using adults to get what she wants (or something like that), which implies that she considers herself something other than an adult.

Lastly, when she later goes into Beast Mode in the fight against the 10th Angel, they tell her she won't be human anymore when she exceeds a certain plug depth, hinting that this was the moment she received the Curse of Eva and her aging stopped. If we consider exceeding a certain plug depth to be the factor behind receiving the Curse of the Eva, then this is consistent with what we also see happen to Asuka and Shinji in the movie as well, who both go past the maximum plug depths during the course of it and are also told they won't be human anymore.

People like to bring up the possibility that Mari received the Curse of the Eva from exposure to LCL, but there's one important detail to keep in mind. It's called the Curse of the Eva. Why do you think it's called the Curse of the Eva? Curse of the Eva implies that it's something you get specifically from piloting an Eva. If you could get it from others ways that don't involve piloting an Eva, like from just exposure to LCL, then it wouldn't be called the Curse of the Eva, it would be called something else. Seeing that Mari looks like the woman in the photograph, people assume immediately that she can't possibly be anyone else other than that person. so they try to force a square peg in a round whole by coming up with an explanation for how she got the Curse of the Eva that's completely different from how Shinji and Asuka got it, destroying the logical consistently of how the Curse works. You sometimes get it from piloting an Eva but sometimes don't?

The way Shinji and Asuka got it had the same conditions and you can point to the exact moments in 2.0 when it happened, which shows that there is a pattern and logic behind how the curse is received, but once you throw in the theory of Mari getting it from LCL exposure, that logic is no longer consistent. Once you start to look at the alternate possibility though that Mari might not be the same person in the photo and remove the assumption that Mari got the curse through some other completely separate means, the pattern and logic once again becomes consistent and makes sense because you can now point to the moment in which Mari fulfilled the same conditions as Shinji and Asuka did to receive the curse.

There are just too many things about Mari in 2.0 that don't make sense if she is indeed the same woman Gendo knew in college. Unless of course Anno forgot about all these things or changed his plans, which is possible. If you've read any of the interviews for 2.0 and the creation for Mari, you'll see that the ideas for her were constantly changing. In 2.0 the original idea for Mari was for her to be a teenager like the other pilots, then between 2.0 and 3.0 the ideas might have changed slightly to where there were hints that Mari and Asuka could related (the woman in the photo looks like a mix of both Asuka and Mari, leading many to theorize they could be half-sisters), then between 3.0 and 3.0+1.0 the idea changed again to where Mari was now an adult that knew Gendo in college. By the end of the Rebuilds, I don't think even the writers know who Mari is because they kept changing her story so much. The contradicting facts about Mari might even be intentional, because they might want the audience to be free to imagine their own origin and backstory for Mari.

If Mari is an adult, that also kind of presents a huge plot hole for the entire Rebuild series, because if they could just have adults pilot an Eva, then why the hell do they even need to rely on kids like Shinji, Rei, and Asuka to do it in the first place? The premise of the entire series (teenagers having to pilot giant robots to protect humanity) falls apart. The only explanation I can see to reconcile all these inconsistencies is if the original Mari that Gendo knew implanted some of her knowledge and memories into her clone/daughter. There is a precedent for stuff like this in Evangelion, where someone's soul and even some of their memories can be put into a clone, like we've seen with Rei

[Meldon_Elraenhie]

I never said there was any time-skip, in fact, there is not one as you point out, which is important to know that Shinji is going to return.

I must say that you have written a detailed theory about Mari, but it leaves too much assumptions that you have to believe with nothing pointing at it in the plot, such as Mari’s memories being implanted in the clone. As you said there are many contradictions, and given the visual comparisons between Shinji/Mari and Gendo/Mari, it is impossible not to think that Mari, the same or not, is going to help Shinji as she helped Gendo. Therefore, even if you think that she has the same age or not, in the end it does not matter. I do not see why it would be a reason to say they stay together and don’t return, when the most important fact is that she promised to Misato that Shinji would return, Shinji demonstrates distance with her when speaking (again, Mari-san…as you said, there is no time-skip and implies that he does not know her, and the train scene is just after that, so why would he decide to go with her and stay with her if he has people he knows and appreciate more?) and we have the parallelism with Gendo’s life.

I

[nerv bae]

Meldon, your theory holds together whether

a) Mari at the train station is the same Mari as in the photograph and in Gendo's college memories, or
b) Mari at the train station is a clone with implanted memories from that earlier Mari,

right? Or does it actually make a difference to the theory?

Edit: whoops, looks like I posted right after you!

[Meldon_Elraenhie]

Meldon, your theory holds together whether

a) Mari at the train station is the same Mari as in the photograph and in Gendo's college memories, or
b) Mari at the train station is a clone with implanted memories from that earlier Mari,

right? Or does it actually make a difference to the theory?

Edit: whoops, looks like I posted right after you!

You are right, it does not. And it does not because the reasons I said:

-That Mari is the one who promises to Misato that Shinji will return
-That Mari is the same who has been pushing Asuka and Shinji together all the time
-That Mari copies the same gesture that we see in Gendo’s memories (if it is not the same), implying a parallelism with the events that happened in Gendo’s life led by Mari. Even if it is not the same, this Mari is going to lead Shinji in the same way.
-That Mari is not known to Shinji to the same extend as the other pilots.

And it is important that it does not change. You can change the background details of Mari, but the movie plot will remain the same, and so the ending meaning.

[Konja7]

(again, Mari-san…as you said, there is no time-skip and implies that he does not know her, and the train scene is just after that, so why would he decide to go with her and stay with her if he has people he knows and appreciate more?)

I think the fact that Shinji knows so little about Mari is one of the reasons why we see he goes with her at the end. She seems to represent a new beginning in the train station scene.


PS: We don't know if Shinji still use the "-san" in the train station.

[Meldon_Elraenhie]

I think the fact that Shinji knows so little about Mari is one of the reasons why we see he goes with her at the end. She seems to represent a new beginning in the train station scenen

I do agree with you that the train scene is a new beginning. It is a new beginning for Shinji in the world without Eva. A world he was willing to die for, but he will be able to enjoy it at the end. The reason that Mari is there is because she is the one who is rescuing him from the AU, as we know from her own words. In order to think that the ending is some kind of tabula rasa ending for Shinji alongside Mari, we have to neglect, and I repeat, neglect, everything we do know and it is indeed shown about Mari (from the Eva extra to the movie)

PS: We don't know if Shinji still use the "-san" in the train station.

The train scene happens seconds/minutes after the Mari-san line, so nothing would have really changed.

[The18°angel]

there are things that are out of context in your theory. for example that mari is the new Misato, that is something that was solved in Shinji's life at that point he had made peace with Misato who was his mother figure and later yui saves him from dying with gendo ending that part for him.

in Asuka's case there are several things that I think you took out of context for example the apparent parallels between Asuka / Shinji and yui / gendo and the role that mari / maria iscariote played in those relationships. to start with the rebuild, everything indicates that the relationship between Shinji and Rei since 1.0 is being developed by gendo so that they are basically gendo / yui 2.0, in this case Shinji and Rei have stronger parallels with yui and gendo than Asuka and Shinji they have and this is leaving mari out the ecuation because is not even there when all of them meet in Tokyo 03 and her firts interaction is with Shinji and later with Rei during the preview before third impact

One of the things that gendo says about his relationship with yui is that she accepted him exactly as she was without wanting him to change. something that Rei did with Shinji during 1.0 then when we enter 2.0 and Asuka is introduced several things happen among them the battle against the eighth angel which could be said to be the point at which Asuka begins to accept Shinji however she has problems to to express it, she is jealous of Shinji and Rei's closeness. upon learning that Rei is going to make a dinner for Shinji and her father begins to learn to cook apparently for Shinji, but here is something that seems to be ignored.

the elevator scene has various meanings now that 3.0 + 1.0 and the confession that Asuka liked Shinji. to start at this point unit 02 is frozen and a new pilot is being chosen for unit 03 is then that she confronts Rei and then says that Rei likes Shinji, this is a critical point for Asuka because she decides to leave her feelings aside and piloting unit 03 allowing Rei to have dinner and during the test in unit 03 Asuka tells Misato that she is happy with the way things are and that she is fine being alone.

instead of risking her position as a pilot and competing with Rei for Shinji's affection she makes an ironically very mature decision by making a compromise between piloting an eva and being happy with the way things are with her living alongside Misato and Shinji but it happens the disaster with unit 03 and Shinji hesitates to do anything to save her for fear of killing her.
then comes the attack of the tenth angel and the near third impact. where gendo says the bond between Shinji and Rei was strong enough to cause unit 01 to awaken.
then we have what happens in the extra manga and we see that Asuka thinks about her time in tokyo 03 and in that memory are Misato and Shinji. During Asuka's scene during the final impact we see that she did not have a family and was completely expendable for being a clone, she wanted a place to belong to and that place was next to Shinji and Misato. Taking this into account, one can say that what Asuka really wanted was for things to be as before what happened in unit 03, at that point she was happy she had a family and a crush, she was an eva pilot and there was a future in which she could grow and get better and be something else than an Eva Pilot.

also both yui and Rei decided to stay inside unit 01 because they believed it was the best, in yui's case for his family and in Rei's case to protect Shinji and prevent him from continuing to pilot. something that would bring strong consequences and would be factors in the psychological decline of gendo and later of Shinji during 3.0

In 3.0 she returned to being just an eva pilot with an immortal body and a bomb necklace on her neck isolated from the lillim (is this something she chose or was forced on her), her family basically no longer exists, Misato considers the mission above human lives and Shinji is dead. and from what we know mari and kensuke are the only people she interacts with in a way that is not professional with kensuke at least.

this is where things are a spiral that somehow emulates what happened in the past but is different rather than parallel. and the role mari plays in this.

when Asuka brings Shinji and Rei Q to the village 03 various things happen including the infamous scene where Asuka force feeds Shinji, causing him to run away, before this Asuka is only wearing kensuke's jacket while interacting directly with Shinji in that scene she just uses her plugsuit while telling her how bad she has been while scolding Shinji for not wanting to do anything and wanting to starve, then when Rei Q visits the place looking for Shinji Asuka is seen again wearing only the house clothes and we see again the same thing from 14 years ago Asuka having trouble dealing with Shinji while Rei Q is open about what she wants and can do for Shinji, after this Rei Q starts taking care of Shinji until he asks him why he does it and unlike Asuka who only told him how bad everyone has been going through, Rei tells him that people still care about him and that they want to help him after that Shinji returns to the Kensuke's house and from that point on, two things happen.The first is that Asuka begins to wear Kensuke's jacket at the same time as her plugsuit while Shinji spends time outside the house in the village or at Nerv's facilities. both Shinji and Asuka keep a distance and only interact in the movie when Kensuke is present. after Rei Q dies something that fuyutsuki tells gendo that he disagrees when he mentions that he is just trying to make Shinji go through the same thing as the he with yui. Shinji returns to the wunder where sakura slaps him and scolds him but hugs him and cries over the Asuka she only asks if sakura is his wife which is weird because later she says that Shinji doesn't need a wife but a mother when mari asks him if She is not interested in him. Then when the conversation between the two occurs in the cell, Asuka admits that Shinji grew a bit but says that she is an adult while Mari congratulates both of them for having talked, the interesting thing about this is that Asuka only talks with Shinji so as not to have regrets during the final battle and then the mythical scene occurs where Shinji rescues her from unit 13 on the beach. we can see Asuka's plugsuit is broken and that she is an adult woman before Shinji sends her back and it is then that she wakes up in the entry plug as an adult dressed in the jacket that she used previously free of being an eva pilot In the same way that 14 years ago everything seemed to point out that she was more than just an eva pilot before the incident with unit 03 but now is definitive.



now mari's role in all this, many would say that she wants Asuka and Shinji to end up together but the way i see it is that mari wants Asuka to be happy and she knows that Shinji has a role in that, reason why she constantly asks Shinji to save Asuka or talks to Asuka constantly about Shinji. There is also the fact that mari / Asuka are a parallel of Shinji / kaworu but different, for example Shinji developed a strong bond with kaworu because he had no one else and was desperate and alone while Asuka (if what was said about That Kensuke and Asuka became close very early, it is true) she had Kensuke, it does not seem strange that when we see Mari interact with Asuka (on screen at least) they are both in an Eva or Asuka is playing with her console or they are preparing for a mission while mari is close with Asuka, the redhead keeps a distance with mari. also the only time where we see them talk together and without anything in between is hours before the mission when Mari is cutting Asuka hair.

something that is the reverse of kaworu and Shinji. Also after having lost in combat her former teammates i think that Asuka considers mari her teammate and respects her but they are not as close at least on her side as one might think or not as close like she was with Shinji or Rei and taking into acount how things ended with her and Misato this is a very big posibility.

Also Asuka sacrifices herself to try to stop an impact using the DSS necklace in the same way as Kaworu, but this only serves to advance gendo's plans, leaving Shinji and Mari as the survirvors only in this case, Mari is Shinji and Asuka is Kaworu. . also there are two things that are ignored, the first is why Shinji went up to the wunder. his motives are simple to stop gendo and help wille. when unit 02 is destroyed and Asuka "dies" that goal does not change. And here is the second thing that is ignored when mari and Shinji enter the anti-universe after her promise to Misato, and they are alone, mari makes a request of her own ... she asks him to save Asuka and wait for her because she will go look for him (maybe mari thought that Shinji was only going to stop gendo only) and Shinji's answer that he is going to try. something quite different from the other occasions where he decided to do nothing or decided to do something regardless of the price (the incident in unit 03, rescue Rei from the angel / pulling the spears).

and after Shinji saves Asuka, just before sending her back mari says goodbye to Asuka, which brings us to the end where Shinji is trapped on the beach mari appears to rescue him after a long time or just before Shinji disappears completely and both end up at the train station where they go in different directions. I do not think that in the end Mari is the guide/mother/sister of Shinji rather I think they are partners/friends where Mari trusted Shinji to saving Asuka and Shinji was surprised that mari kept his word in the end even when he pretended to kill himself to rewrite the world and eliminate the evas but i believe that they will meet again in the future with the rest. But Shinji and Asuka getting together by Mari being there mmm... Maybe if the timeskip had not happen. in the end the are different very from when they meet in Tokyo 03 so who knows, but Mari would troll both of them if given the chance

[Meldon_Elraenhie]

Thank you very much for replying.

However, I believe several points of your post are not accurate and your conclusion felt really weak after all the points you mentioned.

Let me reply to some of them.

mari is the new Misato, that is something that was solved in Shinji's life at that point he had made peace with Misato who was his mother figure and later yui saves him from dying with gendo ending that part for him.

I do not understand why you think that Shinji has some sort of list of things to let go and is ticking boxes throughout the movie. Shinji resolves all of his issues with the characters, but this does not mean that a big sister/motherly figure is not needed or might not happen in your life. Anyway, I a fine if you see Mari as a friend and not a sister/mother figure, it does not change the ending meaning. For me, the fact that she rescues him guides him and the dialogue and visual comparisons that imply some kind of relationship add an extra layer. But I am fine if you do not agree with that, it does not change the ending.

n Asuka's case there are several things that I think you took out of context for example the apparent parallels between Asuka / Shinji and yui / gendo and the role that mari / maria iscariote played in those relationships. to start with the rebuild, everything indicates that the relationship between Shinji and Rei since 1.0 is being developed by gendo so that they are basically gendo / yui 2.0

I believe you misunderstood my parallelism reference. Yui/Asuka and Gendo/Shinji parallelism does not imply that Asuka is indeed like Yui or that Shinji is like Gendo. In fact, I agree with you, for obvious reasons, that the character that closer resembles Yui is Rei. She is a clone, and is programmed to like Shinji, so it is really easy to get those vibes of motherly love towards Shinji.

The parallelism of Yui/Asuka and Gendo/Shinji are meant to show that they are the romantic relationship of the show, despite what some scenes or some behaviours of the characters have shown. There are further parallelism that stress this fact, such as Misato/Kaji and Asuka/Shinji , or even the comparisons between Asuka and Shinji's lives, making us understand that they are meant to understand each other.

he elevator scene has various meanings now that 3.0 + 1.0 and the confession that Asuka liked Shinji

I am sorry to disagree with your interpretation. In that scene, Rei is a mirror for Asuka. She sees and realises her feelings thanks to Rei's words, thanks to Rei's struggling with her comprehension of human relationships. At the same time, she realises she has not worked hard enough. Thanks to that, she realises that she has to be more open to others and understand others feelings, and let Rei organise the dinner. This does not mean she is over it, or that she has somehow let all she feels go, it just shows us that she has grown and is able to express herself better and would have followed that path if not for Bardiel's incident.

when Asuka brings Shinji and Rei Q to the village 03 various things happen including the infamous scene where Asuka force feeds Shinji, causing him to run away, before this Asuka is only wearing kensuke's jacket while interacting directly with Shinji in that scene she just uses her plugsuit while telling her how bad she has been while scolding Shinji for not wanting to do anything and wanting to starve, then when Rei Q visits the place looking for Shinji Asuka is seen again wearing only the house clothes and we see again the same thing from 14 years ago Asuka having trouble dealing with Shinji while Rei Q is open about what she wants and can do for Shinji, after this Rei Q starts taking care of Shinji until he asks him why he does it and unlike Asuka who only told him how bad everyone has been going through

I think that you omit Asuka's part in Shinji's healing, which is rather important. In fact, Shinji's healing is supervised by her. She is the first to feed him, follows him to check on him, and keeps an eye on him from that point onwards. She also directs Rei there, and is always close to them, albeit in the shadows. Then, when Shinji grows, she has the first communication attempt with him and asks if he feels better after crying. At that point, as in previous scenes with Shinji, she stops playing the videogame. I believe that is much important than her clothes, which I do not see your point regarding them.

both Shinji and Asuka keep a distance and only interact in the movie when Kensuke is present

I do not see your point here either. Kensuke's house is a parallelism with Misato's apartment in their previous lives. They show scenes together because they want to make that parallelism, they stress that the three of them are together.

Shinji returns to the wunder where sakura slaps him and scolds him but hugs him and cries over the Asuka she only asks if sakura is his wife which is weird because later she says that Shinji doesn't need a wife but a mother when mari asks him

This is not weird, it makes absolute sense. It is another scene that allows us to see the interior of Asuka. I do not know why you think it is weird. Asuka says that Shinji needs a mother, but she is playing the game when speaking. This might mean different things, but I am sure it is a double-edged sword. It might be only partially true, as a way of shutting herself of opening to Shinji, and it might also mean that she is in need of that parental love. Either way, Asuka is not being honest in that scene.

Then when the conversation between the two occurs in the cell, Asuka admits that Shinji grew a bit but says that she is an adult while Mari congratulates both of them for having talked,

Yes, Asuka only reveals part of the truth (that is why the confession is in the past) as she links what she says to Shinji's growth, which is not complete by that time. While it is true that Mari congratulates both of them, her words imply that Shinji is on a path to amend everything, which has not arrived yet. She says that he is doing great, keep on that (more or less), so this implies that Asuka and Shinji relationship and the role of Mari in it has not stopped.

Furthermore, a little detail: Mari says goodbye in Chinese before leaving, enhancing the meaning of goodbye as a way of seeing each other again, as they indeed see each other again. The same will be true for Shinji's goodbye to Asuka.

now mari's role in all this, many would say that she wants Asuka and Shinji to end up together but the way i see it is that mari wants Asuka to be happy and she knows that Shinji has a role in that, reason why she constantly asks Shinji to save Asuka or talks to Asuka constantly about Shinji.

I do not see why you backtrack here while you are writing. Mari wants Asuka to be happy knowing that Shinji has a role in it...but what role has Shinji then if it is not as a romantic partner, which we (and Mari) knows is what Asuka wants.

There is also the fact that mari / Asuka are a parallel of Shinji / kaworu

Yes, I agree in this parallel, although not in the way you described it. It is another parallel to show that Asuka and Shinji are equals, as in all the visual parallels Mari is on the side of Kaworu, and Asuka on Shinji's side. There is no parallel that hints that Asuka=Kaworu and Mari=Shinji, having a ton of comparisons and elements (and plot references) that Shinji=Asuka, but with different defence mechanisms in the context of the hedgehog dilemma.

nd after Shinji saves Asuka, just before sending her back mari says goodbye to Asuka, which brings us to the end where Shinji is trapped on the beach mari appears to rescue him after a long time or just before Shinji disappears completely and both end up at the train station where they go in different directions. I do not think that in the end Mari is the guide/mother/sister of Shinji rather I think they are partners/friends where Mari trusted Shinji to saving Asuka and Shinji was surprised that mari kept his word in the end even when he pretended to kill himself to rewrite the world and eliminate the evas but i believe that they will meet again in the future with the rest. But Shinji and Asuka getting together by Mari being there mmm... Maybe if the time skip had not happened. in the end the are different very from when they meet in Tokyo 03 so who knows, but Mari would troll both of them if given the chance

I must admit that it was hard for me to understand how you reached the points of your conclusion. I have repeated this many times in my posts, but to accept that Mari and Shinji are going in different directions, you have to neglect everything that has been shown previously in the movie and manga. You have to neglect Asuka and Shinji confession and think that Asuka, despite everything that has been shown, will say "Oh perfect, Shinji save me, I have had feelings for him for 14 years but yes, why not? it is time to move on for no reason at all" which makes no sense.

I agree with you that Mari and Shinji are there because they are the two left in the AU. I agree that she might be only a friend rather to a big sister or something like that (why do you introduce the partner element? That is just wishful thinking, there is no element in the whole RoE pointing at that) and I do not know where you see that they go in different directions. The other pilots are not there, they are presentations that they are already saved, so Mari and Shinji go in the direction they need to return.

So in the end, you accept that they might meet again, but you accept that if that happens that would mean nothing for Asuka or Shinji because as Mari was the one who rescued him...that means...that they have to let their feelings go? I still do not get it.

And as a final remark, you say that if the time skip had not happened, Asuka and Shinji would have been together. However, there are a lot of developments after the time skip that contradicts that, not only the fact that we know that Asuka still has feelings, Shinji too and both confesses. The thing that hampers all is Shinji's sacrifice, which is not present anymore, in the end, thanks to Yui/Gendo sacrifice.

Oh! And I forgot to mention the Eva extra manga interpretation

The manga is there to show Asuka’s feelings and how much she misses Shinji. From the first page with the moon poem references/the book quotes of Mari about the moon is beautiful/and Asuka’s position we know she misses him and still loves him. This is further expanded in Mari and Asuka’s interactions, and is clearly stated to the reader when we see she thinking about a moment where Shinji was being nice to her. In the image, we see clearly she is thinking about Shinji and not Misato or some sort of scene in the apartment as a family. Furthermore, there is no single reference in the manga to that.

As a short manga, the intention is clear. Asuka does not miss those times in Tokyo 3 (she might but it is not presented there) , she misses and loves Shinji, and that is the intention of it.

Merged, unnecessary double post - JoelcrNeto

[The18°angel]

Look what I gave was my interpretation of why I think there were things that you took out of context in your theory (which you seem to want to present as the absolute truth).

also Asuka / Shinji are a parallel between yui / gendo or between Misato / Kaji ? because the difference is important within the rebuild, if they are a parallel to yui / gendo then if their relationship could be romantic but if they are a parallel to Misato / Kaji then things change a lot because during the duration of 2.0 Misato and Kaji do not reconnect their relationship and Misato says that she does not want to go back to how things were in the past and that they should behave as adults, the N3I is needed so that the relationship between they both came back but at that point they were already in the middle of an apocalypse and due to the original anime and manga we know that Misato can't deal well with that sort of thing if not with alcohol or sex. (but here's a key difference between Asuka and Shinji, Misato and Kaji are able to have a private conversation and be honest with each other).

something that never happens with Shinji or Asuka, on the occasions that Asuka is in private with Shinji she always takes the worst possible path. in 3.0 she kicks and criticizes a Shinji suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder and only when Rei appears she stops, then in village 03 as soon as they are alone she force-feeds him in addition to telling him other things which causes him to run away of the house. If Rei hadn't intervened, we can assume she would have probably repeated the same action with Shinji at the nerv facility.

Asuka is also never honest with Shinji about her feelings or what she wants (not even in 2.0) and she is always on her guard a very big difference in the few moments in the movie where she interacts with Kensuke and Shinji is not close we can see that she is having conversations with him and there is a scene where she even smiles, but this happens when Shinji is not present (one can assume that they were alone off screen but this is just assuming). then the confession occurs in the wunder, where she takes mari to the cell where she confides to Shinji that she used to like him (something you imply was a lie because she still likes him). but this is what happens Asuka could be honest with mari about certain things from her past, possibly also with kensuke but as soon as Shinji makes an appearance this stops completely and we never see her being "honest" we only see half truths or lies and she is only honest of screen

Now about the clothes, if there is a strong implication of what it means and why the difference should be noticed when Asuka only wears the normal clothes from when she uses the plugsuit, during her stay at Kensuke's house she used The normal clothes but the next day as soon as Kensuke left she changed into the plugsuit and force-fed Shinji, but that same day later we see her wearing only normal clothes. when Shinji comes back to live in the house she starts to wear the jacket and the plugsuit but when she returns to the wunder she only wears the plugsuit and when she is finally rescued and saved she appears wearing the jacket again naked in the entry plug, not a plugsuit, not the clothes she used in 2.0 just the jacket. you don't think that it's too much of a coincidence that the same thing happens to all the pilots at the end. kaworu appears wearing normal clothes, Shinji on the beach no longer has the plugsuit and mari switches from wearing the plugsuit to wearing her fashionable school uniform (Rei is the only one who wears normal clothes but has long hair) one could argue that Asuka wears the plugsuit for Shinji to recognize her but what is the use of wearing it when she acts in a way so different from the past.

then there is the scene in the prequel manga in the last panel before the end, Misato appears behind Shinji when Asuka remembers the past if the intention of the manga is to present this as romantic then why Misato appears even if it is somewhat blurred leaving the meaning more ambiguous and open. And during the impact Asuka she sees Shinji and his parents and her expression is jealous of that scene

in the parallels between Asuka / mari and Shinji / kaworu

If you see 3.0 and 4.0 in the final battle the similarities are not only visual but also in the context of what is going to happen it is almost identical.
* we started with mari and Asuka wearing plugsuits of a color opposite to that used by kaworu and Shinji in a bright room instead of a dark one
* mari and Asuka are separated by the bed where they sleep while there was nothing between kaworu and Shinji.
* both are forced to fight their way in sync, while kaworu and Shinji only sync together to get through the barrier in the central dogma without any opposition whatsoever.
* When they finally reach their destination Asuka takes the initiative while Mari stops the enemy force. in contrast to kaworu who tries to figure out what is happening while Shinji stops the enemy force (in this case Asuka and mari).
* Asuka falls into the trap and is eaten by eva 13 while kaworu realizes that it is a trap but Shinji goes ahead with the plan which ends with kaworu dying.
* both mari and Shinji survive but now the real impact begins and both are ignored by gendo.
* The wunder is used on both occasions but only in the final impact it manages to be useful to stop it while before it could not do anything.

Now there is something that kaworu and Asuka have in common regarding Shinji, which is not being sacrifices to initiate an impact or being angels and it is the fact that they are not completely honest with Shinji they both care about Shinji and it can be said that they want what better for him but the way in which they approach this problem is quite different also when Shinji shows the slightest resistance Asuka surrenders and leaves him in the care of Rei Q (she watches over him true but did not interact with Shinji in this period of time) while kaworu kept trying to talk to Shinji. Another thing is that both kaworu and asuk are trapped by the eva in this case literally, kaworu resigned himself to continue his role permanently and suffer eternally and Asuka resigned himself to just being an eva pilot who will sooner or later die Like the rest of the shikinami-types, and Shinji saves them both, it seem like too much of a coincidence that both Kaji and Kensuke tell Kaworu and Asuka that they have more than just piloting Evas and that a part of their problem involves Shinji to some extent.

now about the ending is the fact that at the train station Asuka, kaworu and Rei board the train while mari and Shinji go in the opposite direction leaving the ending as open as possible. If they really wanted to imply with certainty that they are going to meet, the perfect ending would have been that just after mari appeared to rescue Shinji, they both wake up on a beach near village 03 and mari takes him by the hand leading him in that direction.

And on the part of the mother/sister figure, i am not againts that and i am not againts Shinji/Asuka but what bugs me is that every female character that is not named Asuka must be this, and that Asuka is his soulmate destinated to be with him when the whole point of the pilots is that they we're bound by fate and in the end they became free. and if we are couting then we have. Yui his actual mother, Misato his surrogate mother/figure, Rei his mother clone/sister figure and now Mari his other surrogate mother/sister. Before meeting mari officially he already has 3 of these figures in his life does he really need a fourth mother figure and somehow he is still considered an adult in the end?

[JoelcrNeto]

Meldon_Elraenhie: regarding this post. You’ve committed two small violations of the forum rule:

1. Do not replying line by line what is being said (a.k.a. omnislashing): try to encompass the entire post instead;
2. You made a double post in a short time period: use the “Edit” button to add something to your post. Posts merged.

This warning is also for all users.

Remember, folks: read the forum rules.
Thank you!