Sequel Theory - General

[Heaven Piercing Man]

The average plebbitor sequel argument boils down to "muh red seas, muh peggy sue retake"

They started calling it "loop" when Kaworu's endless cryptic speeches hinting at him reincarnating and the "red sea gotcha" would get discredited, and now when only Kaworu's past lives are acknowledged, they are saying "we were right and evageeks was wrong"

They still swear by the "red sea proof" though.

[mastafishere]

See, I see the Kaworu coffins as the biggest piece of evidence against sequel theory. Because, ya know, they don’t exist in NGE.

Do we know for sure that they don't exist in NGE though? True we never see them but they could be up there.

All other evidence about sequel theory can be explained away before we even get to 3.0 + 1.0 (the stripe on the moon is from 2nd impact, etc) so I'm focusing just on the coffins for now.

I just want to write this out so I'm on the same page with you guys so bare with me. And please feel free to tell me where I'm wrong! This is making my head hurt as it is haha

NTE Kaworu wakes up on the moon. There's a bunch of coffins opened, implying he is not the first. Throughout NTE Kaworu has dialogue pertaining to meeting Shinji once again. In Thrice Upon a Time, it is specifically stated that Kaworu and Shinji have met before, with Shinji remembering their meeting.

SEQUEL Theory:

This is the same timeline as NGE therefore this is the same moon. Maybe these coffins existed in NGE, maybe they didn't. Maybe NGE is the first of the "loops." Either way, same physical space and everything in NGE happened before NTE, presumably before other iterations (but not necessarily so). When Shinji recalls meeting Kaworu, presumably its because they're in the anti-universe and his soul became aware of his past life.

NON-SEQUEL Theory

Not the same moon as NGE but within NTE there have been loops wherein Kaworu met Shinji and failed to give him happiness. This haunts Kaworu and he makes it his obsession to give Shinji happiness thinking it'll bring him happiness. We never see anything from these loops. Shinji's memory of meeting Kaworu comes from his soul melding with his soul from the "imaginary" anti-universe.

OKay, maybe I'm seeing where I get tripped up. In the NON-SEQUEL theory, are we thinking either 1)The one timeline has had one or more NGE-like events (but not necessarily NGE) where the world ends and resets over and over again until Shinji breaks the loop in Thrice? or 2) The same events are playing out across multiple different universes?

If it's 1) then it's strange to me that we never see Kaworu's other failed loops if we're not supposed to interpret NGE as one of those loops (and why wouldn't we assume NGE is one of those loops based on all the NGE imagery?) and if it's 2) then why are there multiple open coffins within that universe?

[Archer]

Yep, it’s (1). I think the implication might have been that during every other Instrumentality, Shinji instead chooses to turn back time, until 3.0+1.0 where he chooses to finally move on and focus on the future instead of dwelling on the past (but don’t quote me on it).

The other thing to remember is that the whole loop thing is, first and foremost, a metaphor for the IRL iterations of the story that Anno’s been continuously revisiting, and that the bleakness of EoE - while it reflected Anno’s mental state at the time - no longer felt like an adequate place to end the story of these characters, and that with 3.0+1.0 Anno feels like he’s dealt with that unfinished business and is able to move on from Eva and its characters, as far as Shinji’s story is concerned.

[T. K. Simon]

Eva is a universe, in which there are dimensions.

The golgota object links reality with fiction (other dimensions come in here)

Kaworu coffins have the seele rebuild logo, there is its own cycle in rebuild. The coffins are in 1.0

Gendo has in his possession the key, which transcends beyond reality, perhaps knowing of other dimensions and memories

When Shinji tells kaworu that he has met him several times, kaworu tells him why he is written in the book of life, he does not tell him that it is because they are cycles.

Kaworu being an angel, can be aware of other lives of hers

When Shinji tells Rei that he is not going to reboot this time, he might be referring to "reboots" of the same dimension as rebuild.

The images of eoe and nge can be the product of the golgota object, which, as I have said before, merges, and we see that, in addition to classic scenarios, and images of the indumenstrality of nge and eoe, as meta-references as well.

I see it that way.

[pwhodges]

Think about the lore. There are many and great differences in the underlying lore of NGE and NTE.

Just for one example, consider whether Evas require to contain souls related to the pilot to be able to function - in NGE explicitly yes, but in NTE equally explicitly (by example) no.

If one wants to propose a sequel theory, or a loop theory which includes both versions of Eva, one needs to explain such differences.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Do we know for sure that they don't exist in NGE though? True we never see them but they could be up there.

NGE Rei has always been associated with the moon. (Feminine voices singing FMTTM, Rei’s silhouette next to the moon in the ED, GNR’s moon-white complexion, GNR using the Black Moon as a vessel, GNR’s blood on the White Moon, etc…)

NGE Kaworu has no claim to the moon whatsoever. That’s unique to NTE Kaworu.

[Konja7]

Kaworu coffins have the seele rebuild logo, there is its own cycle in rebuild. The coffins are in 1.0

The coffins really exist in the current cycle. These seem to be used by SEELE to create Kaworu in his current life (I think the open coffins are failed attempts to create him).

That said, in Kaworu's Instrumentality, it seems to be implied he was born from a coffin in the moon in previous cycles too.

[T. K. Simon]

SPOILER: Show

True. The coffins really exist in the current cycle. These seem to be used by SEELE to create Kaworu in the current life (I think the open coffins are failed attempts to create him).

That said, in Kaworu's Instrumentality, it seems to be implied he has born from a coffin in the moon in previous cycles too.

If they were all created by seele rebuild, I could say that this kaworu is of the rebuild dimension, but being an angel, it is aware of other lives

[Lacissal]

Personally, I just don’t see how it’s satisfying to interpret this stuff on a literal, in-universe level of “OMG it’s ALL CONNECTED in a BIG MULTIVERSE OF EVA!!!” rather than to appreciate it as a metafictional device that uses in-universe time loops as a metaphor for the real-world iterations of the narrative (NGE/EoTV, Director’s Cut+EoE, Rebuilds). But then again I’m someone who absolutely hates extended continuity and likes my stories as self-contained as possible, so what do I know, lol.

I have the same feelings as @Archer's whole post. I've got a strong personal dislike of 'multiverses', largely because of either how they're handled, with western superhero comics being the absolute worst offenders, where everything has to be fitted together into some big, over-arching multiverse of canon, or because of 'le epic internet unified theory of everything' where people seem to have an urgent need for all iterations of a franchise to be connected in some way or form. There seems to be difficulty accepting things can simply stand independently of each other, like the JoJo and FMA examples.

With Shin, I feel the NGE references come naturally from the film's production and intent not just to finish Rebuild's story but as the film itself becomes about finishing and leaving Eva behind. But at the end of the day they don't really have any impact on Rebuild's story- it has a self contained repeating loop of events, and when we reach the Golgotha object it seems that there's also endless parallel as well as sequential iterations- paraphrasing Misato in EoE endless variations on a common theme- one of which might be or just resemble NGE and it's two endings. Rebuild could still end the same way, with loops one way, and different iterations/'universes' the other, but not show NGE and it wouldn't change the outcome. Events and mechanics in one don't impact the other. There's no need to fit everything together into some grand master timeline, just Rebuild Shinji and Kaworu having a brief glimpse into a (for us) more familiar iteration.

[Heaven Piercing Man]

The way I interpreted the coffins, the ones we see in 1.0 are not much more than what we see, his origin in the movieverse. Meanwhile the ones we see in Shin are imagery made from his memories (because of the Golgotha Object) but representing his endless cycle of death and rebirth through the eternal return, and that's why only in that film it looks like a circle representing the Ouroboros.

[Konja7]

If they were all created by seele rebuild, I could say that this kaworu is of the rebuild dimension, but being an angel, it is aware of other lives

It seems to be implied that Kaworu and Shinji souls are trapped in a Eternal loop, which seems to be related with the Book of Life.

Although we don't know how much Kaworu remember of previous lifes, we can see he also feels trapped and miserable by this Eternal loop.

[Konja7]

The way I interpreted the coffins, the ones we see in 1.0 are not much more than what we see, his origin in the movieverse. Meanwhile the ones we see in Shin are imagery made from his memories (because of the Golgotha Object) but representing his endless cycle of death and rebirth through the eternal return, and that's why only in that film it looks like a circle representing the Ouroboros.

I agree with your interpretation. I think the coffins in 1.11 are just the way SEELE created Kaworu (and the open coffins are failed attempts).

Although I should say the coffins in 1.11 still could look like a circle representing the Ouroboros. We don't see enough about these coffins in 1.11 to be sure.

[T. K. Simon]

SPOILER: Show

It seems to be implied that Kaworu and Shinji souls are trapped in a Eternal loop, which seems to be related with the Book of Life.

Although we don't know how much Kaworu remember of previous lifes, we can see he also feels trapped and miserable by this Eternal loop.

Shinji could be in a loop just like kaworu, but in rebuild.

Shinji is the same in every story (due to the book of life, he is the same in every story, written by Kaworu)

By being in Anti-Verse, he is able to "remember" other lives outside of rebuild, as well as the same rebuild cycles.

[Blockio]

I feel like this thread is arguing about two seperate things at the moment, while using the same language to describe both of them; both "there is a repetition within the same timeline" and "there are multiple universes connected through instrumentality" are being referred to as loops, when for all intents and purposes, the second one very much is not a loop, but rather a multiverse. (which for that matter you don't even need the movies for, EoTV/EoE already showed that a multiverse exists by having the characters look on to different versions of themselves)

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

^ This. It’s really difficult to “Loop” anything two things running parallel with each other, timelines included.

[Archer]

“Multiverse” also has different meanings. In the context of a singular work it’s usually in reference to different “timelines”, but there’s also the broader characterization of a “multiverse” which connect different fictional universes.

[T. K. Simon]

I take them as dimensions, within the same universe.
Are alternative timelines synonymous with different realities?

[Blockio]

I'm not sure I follow

[RussianRiz]

It's really hard to distinguish what's going on between a loop and a multiverse. I believe that the main question is whether or not NGE is included and how it happened.

We have evidence of constant continuity, like calendar dates, which are ridiculously advanced, and coffins may or may not be evidence of a continuity that repeats itself over and over again. This, for me, weakens the multiverse theory, and strengthens the loop theory.

The anti-universe can easily be the gateway to all these different realities, and connect them through the invariability of souls (believing that even as time continues, souls are reused). What would be missing is, for example, what is the catalyst event of the loops? What makes time stop ticking and start over again? When does it start, and how far does it go?

I don't think we'll get those answers that easily.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

As far as terminology goes, “Loop Theory” has mostly been synonymous with “Sequel Theory.” These two ideas need to be separated again. I feel like there’s plenty of room for NTE Kaworu to “Endless Eight” his way around NTE Shinji’s emotions without getting any of the NGE characters involved.