Sequel Theory - General

[mastafishere]

It may be possible that rebuild has its own restart / loop, and that kaworu being a "divine" being or angel, is aware of this, as well as other realities

If that’s the case, what do you think the first loop was, if not essentially NGE? Did 2.0 end with human instrumentality? Or did 3.0 actually end with a “Re-do”?

I get the fact that there may be a loop that were not privy to, but I dunno that feels like intentionally ignoring what’s right in front of us for the sake of making a non-sequel theory work.

[Semi-Evolved]

SPOILER: Show

Having just watched it again, I change my thoughts and say that the Rebuilds aren’t a sequel. The way I understood it this time is that Misato’s father was able to look into the chambers of Guf and prove the capabilities of the impacts by looking into other realities, specifically the reality of NGE. Gendo took this research and saw what was possible.

By that logic, it’s possible that this happened in NGE too, that Katsuragi looked into the Rebuild reality and saw what was possible and that influenced NGE Gendo. So neither came before or after the other, but both influenced one another.

That only leaves the pesky coffins on the moon. Well, Kaworu couldn’t have come from those coffins in NGE, because those coffins weren’t there (and neither was the red blood stripe, if indeed this was all a loop). Also, in NGE, he had a “birth” date but that could be fake too, I guess. Sure, you could argue that NGE was the first of many loops, but that doesn’t seem right either.

I’m really stuck on this. Him literally rising from a coffin, and us seeing previous coffins seem to explicitly state that Kaworu has been born multiple times in this reality and has met Shinji and died many times within it, which would suggest one timeline and a linear path between Kaworu’s. So far I haven’t seen anyone really argue the contrary in a way that’s satisfying to me and I’d really like to see it.

I'm confused; why does it need to be set physically in the same reality for it to be a sequel? The word "Sequel" simply means it's a work that continues the story or expands upon an earlier work. Given the direct thematic and story linkages, Rebuild fits that definition pretty easily.

[T. K. Simon]

SPOILER: Show

If that’s the case, what do you think the first loop was, if not essentially NGE? Did 2.0 end with human instrumentality? Or did 3.0 actually end with a “Re-do”?

I get the fact that there may be a loop that were not privy to, but I dunno that feels like intentionally ignoring what’s right in front of us for the sake of making a non-sequel theory work.

We never see when the first loop was. If rebuild actually has its own reboot / cycle separate from nge / eoe, we don't know, but it is a possibility and should not be ruled out.

Kaworu mentions to Shinji that his name is written in the book of life, he wrote it himself, as Anno said to the voice actors, there is only a kaworu, a Shinji and a Rei, probably making an allusion to that.

What makes me doubt about the sequel is the golgota object.

It intertwines realities (which we could also consider dimensions), and which seems to be bringing together the indumenstrality of eoe and nge, which had also given indications of other realities.

The kaworu coffins is also a mystery, in the original NGE they were not, that makes me put a point to be different realities / dimensions, in addition to the fact that the coffins have the rebuild seele symbol, not nge.

I understand that the cycles may be "different", but this is never explained to us.

I'm confused; why does it need to be set physically in the same reality for it to be a sequel? The word "Sequel" simply means it's a work that continues the story or expands upon an earlier work. Given the direct thematic and story linkages, Rebuild fits that definition pretty easily.

I understand your point.

When I refer to direct sequel, in my case, it is that rebuild comes after eoe or nge, same timeline

The kaworu coffins were not in the original, which is why I am inclined to think that rebuild has its own loop / reset.But kaworu being an angel, he could be aware of other realities / dimensions.

Manga Kaworu in my opinion is not necessary to consider it, perhaps it could be one of the first experiences of kaworu, but sadamoto has said that the manga is its own continuity, and does not affect the anime or rebuild, it also applies to Mari's, already that the facts of the manga contradict the movie

Do not double post, please - BernardoCairo

[Semi-Evolved]

I understand your point.

When I refer to direct sequel, in my case, it is that rebuild comes after eoe or nge, same timeline

The kaworu coffins were not in the original, which is why I am inclined to think that rebuild has its own loop / reset.

We didn't see close-ups of the whole surface of the moon in NGE, so we don't actually know if there were Karowu coffins there or not. We know there wasn't a giant splash of blood across the moon til EoE though - which was present in Rebuild

[T. K. Simon]

Also the rebuild Red Sea is explained as being caused by the second impact, the blood across on the moon could also have the same case. It is true that we never see the moon in nge, but that is speculation, yours, and mine

Likewise, we are making theories, all with their pros and cons, since we may never receive an answer.

[Heaven Piercing Man]

The only loop I see is the Nietzchean idea of eternal return with a meta slant, Kaworu is self aware, and Shinji gains some self awareness at the end, maybe because he's in the anti-universe.

Meanwhile Plebbit is chock-full of old school Peggy Sue Loopers still worshipping that collage posted on /a/ more than 10 years ago and trying to force a Re-Take/One More With Feeling interpretation to the point they're actively lying to themselves about what happened in EOE.

[Semi-Evolved]

Also the rebuild Red Sea is explained as being caused by the second impact, the blood across on the moon could also have the same case. It is true that we never see the moon in nge, but that is speculation, yours, and mine

Likewise, we are making theories, all with their pros and cons, since we may never receive an answer.

Sure; was using that as a further example of not being able to prove anything (one way or another) related to what we don't see, such as Kaworu's moon-coffins. I hope we don't get conclusive answers - much more entertaining to speculate and decide for ourselves.

For me, it's very clearly a sequel in the literary sense, and I'm not overly concerned as to whether or not it's a "direct sequel" as you put it - but I also think the most fun answer to that question is "yes".

[shito]

As someone else already said in the thread, there have been discussion about whether or not Rebuild is a sequel, and that will continue to be that way, we will continue to discuss this over the years, and it's what I expected to happen. If the movie confirmed that this either was or was not a sequel, it wouldn't have felt like Evangelion. Just as how the original TV ending and EoE left us discussing them over the decades, without ever reaching a perfect confirmed truth (I'm pretty sure EoTV and EoE are complementary and part of the same story, but there are people that hold that they're different endings and there's some convincing arguments to that point too), the same will happen with Rebuild.
I think it can be viewed from both angles, if you want to think of Rebuild as a self-contained story without the need of the original, it's perfectly possible to see it that way, just think of all the callbacks to the original as wacky nostalgic references and nothing else, and Kaworu talking about his endless loop and the book of life could be contained within the Rebuild universe and not the original NGE. But, the other option is also thinking about all the references, such as the beach scene, as Shinji being aware of events from the original/EoE, and not them just being random nostalgic references, but actually having weight in giving closure to Shinji's story with Asuka or Kaworu.
I personally think that yeah, it can work as a sequel, or at least, I think the acknowledgement of NGE/EoE in this movie to be more than just nostalgic references without actual meaning. It is hard to explain it without just thinking of it as meta, though, but I think Rebuild is definitely not erasing, replacing or forgetting about the original, quite the opposite, it's giving it a lot of importance.

[Natalie the Cat]

“Sequel” is just too limited of sword to describe what it is. We’re going to have trouble constraining it with Hollywood suit-speak.

It’s more of a variation on a theme.

SPOILER: Show

The only loop I see is the Nietzchean idea of eternal return with a meta slant, Kaworu is self aware, and Shinji gains some self awareness at the end, maybe because he's in the anti-universe.

Meanwhile Plebbit is chock-full of old school Peggy Sue Loopers still worshipping that collage posted on /a/ more than 10 years ago and trying to force a Re-Take/One More With Feeling interpretation to the point they're actively lying to themselves about what happened in EOE.

A man once told me that coffins on the moon are a flat circle

[Heaven Piercing Man]

A circle that reminds me of Ouroboros. As in eternal recurrence.

[Gendo's Glasses]

A man once told me that coffins on the moon are a flat circle

Actually, they're more like four balls on the edge of a cliff...

[aboose]

My lukewarm, baseless take is that Shinji in NTE has been potentially looping time via instrumentality, possibly in ways similar to NGE and possible in other ways, and ultimately the series of events that occurred in the current iteration lead to him being able to break the loop. It may be that he never was able to access and perceive the anti dimension and Gendo's motivations until this loop, at which time he becomes aware of all the other loops and opts to eliminate all Eva.

Therefore, NGE can be a loop within NTE, and it can also be a completely separate, independent universe that he perceives via the anti dimension. It can be both at the same time, because the loop theory implies that there could have been dozens of loops, at least by Kaworu's experience.

[gchristnsn]

It is definitely not a sequel, because Seele there are not a bunch of religious fanatics, but literally exist as monoliths from Arthur C. Clarke "Odyssey". At the meeting in 3.0 Gendo thanks them on the behalf of humanity, which suggests that they are an another sentient race bestowed with a fruit of wisdom.

[bucky699]

I'm gunna go with reboot, possibly bringing the sotry of Evangelion to a newer generation, you could argue that during thrid impact when all conciousness are combined that it created billions upon billions of alternate realities all playing out in unison.

Personally i like to just think of this as Annos way of bringing his Magnum Opus to a new generation while paying hommage to the older generations. Think of it what you will it was a good romp down memory lane but the Original will always be my favorite anime of all time.

[mastafishere]

I'm confused; why does it need to be set physically in the same reality for it to be a sequel? The word "Sequel" simply means it's a work that continues the story or expands upon an earlier work. Given the direct thematic and story linkages, Rebuild fits that definition pretty easily.

You’re probably confused because we’re discussing different things. In a semantical sense, I agree with you completely, but that’s not at all what I’m trying to figure out.

[Jayfive]

SPOILER: Show

The only loop I see is the Nietzchean idea of eternal return with a meta slant, Kaworu is self aware, and Shinji gains some self awareness at the end, maybe because he's in the anti-universe.

Meanwhile Plebbit is chock-full of old school Peggy Sue Loopers still worshipping that collage posted on /a/ more than 10 years ago and trying to force a Re-Take/One More With Feeling interpretation to the point they're actively lying to themselves about what happened in EOE.

They're also parroting the whole "Anno is just telling you to get a hot mommy girlfriend and all your problems will be solved" alleged moral of the tale which popped up on 4chan within minutes of the script leak.

[hui43210]

They're also parroting the whole "Anno is just telling you to get a hot mommy girlfriend and all your problems will be solved" alleged moral of the tale which popped up on 4chan within minutes of the script leak.

And this is why I stay far away from both those sites.

[Uriel93]

"Sequel" is definitely the wrong word. Rebuild isn't a continuation of that story, but a reconstruction after the chaos of Third Impact - perhaps a reconstruction some unknowable number of redos down the line. It describes itself in the best term: it's a Rebuild of Evangelion, enacted by events taking place in the world of Eva.

Anno once said, in an interview from a number of years back: https://www.decultureshock.com/evangeli ... franchise/

For the future, (Anno) wishes Evangelion will become a cultural icon, one of the cornerstones of anime, much like Gundam, which has become an institution in and of itself. Like Gundam, where many creators can play around with the elements and create their own worlds, it is Anno’s hope that Evangelion can also be set free, to be reconstructed and reinterpreted in many ways by many other artists.

Essentially, Evangelion is a franchise within which he'd like to see any number of other creators be able to explore the same characters and stories again and again. EOE is the start - and Rebuild, with 3+1, is the end - but inbetween these works, you can make the argument that every single other Evangelion work, past or future, can be considered "canon" to the franchise as a whole, as this creates a place for every single one of them to exist.

Really, it's fantastic - and allows Eva to be retold again and again without ever displacing its original message, beginning (NGE), or end (3+1).

[Semi-Evolved]

You’re probably confused because we’re discussing different things. In a semantical sense, I agree with you completely, but that’s not at all what I’m trying to figure out.

I know what you're discussing, but it's literally what the word sequel means - if you're trying to figure out something else, maybe use different words.

[T. K. Simon]

Are realities and dimensions really the same?

Alternate timeline is when a particular event took a different path on each line.

Do you think they are different universes?