Sequel Theory - General

[T. K. Simon]

The golgota object could unite each indumenstrality of each universe

What do you mean by "ending the cycle"? Those coffins will cease to exist?

Why does kaworu every time he dies, he will not jump to another universe, if not to another cycle?

[RussianRiz]

If we take this into the account, NGE could be merely a consequence of Rebuildverse, where Shinji creates a universe where Asuka is a real person and not a clone.

[Gendo'sPapa]

I say No.

I feel that any and all references to NGE - the beach with Kaworu & the beach with Asuka, the titles being projected when Shinji when talking to Rei, etc. - are all intelligent uses of being meta to the franchise and the viewers relationship to the series as a whole while not betraying the nature of the narrative.

Fun & exciting thing though is the story leaves that entirely left up to the interpretation of the viewer. How much does it matter to you that this a sequel?
To me, outside of Kaworu - a character who lives out of time and space - it doesn't matter at all for the characters or their journies, certainly not for Shinji's story of personal growth, and so I'm not onbaord or invested in the topic. For others, it very much NEEDS to be a direct continuation of the original series for it to work. And if the whole story works better for you on an emotional level if it's a direct sequel then it damn well is a direct sequel.

This topic is one that has been going on for years and now will continue to go on for years. People are gonna be posting videos & articles on "Proof Rebuild is a Sequel to NGE" and "FACT: Rebuild is unconnected to NGE" for years. They'll be able to put up a good or bad case and the only appropriate answer is "If that's how you feel then that's how you feel."

What a great movie.... direct sequel to NGE or not....

[Justacrazyguy]

My take has been echoed in this thread already, but it's basically that it isn't a sequel inside the Evangelion universe. It's just that once we get to the final stretch we go into ridiculous extremely vague meta stuff, where the movie is very obviously assuming you know the TV series and movie to get the emotional impact.

So... a sequel in the sense that the makers expected you to know the original well (sort of like Yamato 2199, a remake that expects you to be intimate with the original but is obviously still a remake, and in no way a continuation in narrative), but not a sequel in the sense of the characters having been stuck in a loop since the end of End of Evangelion, or since Anno decided to make the Rebuilds.
The events of rebuilds make no sense to me has a direct continuation of the events of the original, they all work independently, with the Village sequence being the most obvious example. Why would one develop all the characters and motivate the character of Shinji through Ayanami, if it's all just a slightly different repeat of the original? Nah, they need that development precisely because they are not exactly the same characters, and all must still go through their character arcs to reach the conclusion.

Only in the final sequence do maybe the characters become aware of some sort of multiverse nonsense, and even then, I think the footage of Evangelion TV and the various references are more to the audience than the characters. I don't really see Shinji being aware of the significance of the beach in the Asuka scene (and christ, if he was why the hell would he choose such a traumatic moment to say goodbye to Asuka inside the Eva universe? That's just masochism).

It his kind of an interesting gamble to make the Rebuilds so connected to the original in this meta way though. Until 3.0 they still worked fine in a completely independent way, now with the last movie it would be depressing to ask someone to watch withouth knowing the original, because so much would lose meaning. Kind of like watching Turn A withouth watching all previous Tomino Gundams, now that I think about it. All work fine alone, but all equally work much better seen as a continuous line of meta narrative.

[T. K. Simon]

Why does kaworu every time he dies, he will not jump to another universe, if not to another cycle? is incorrect?

[rangure0412]

How do you reconcile that with the multiple Kaworu coffins in the moon? To me, that says that it’s the same reality that multiple Kaworus have existed in and interacted with Shinji.

For me Kaworu of Rebuild is different of the one of NGE. But also he can see the things of his NGE counterpart. In this last movie we see how Kaworu wakes up again and again and this happens:

1- The coffins have the Rebuild Seele logo
2- Every single time he wakes up he see the same: Adam in the moon surrounded by human machinery. Adam is not in the moon in NGE and the human race don't have the capacity of have installations in the moon.

[Jurrasic]

SPOILER: Show

To be fair, we know the coffins exist in 1.11. That seems to be how Kaworu was created in the current life (at least).

In Kaworu's Instrumentality, the coffins seems to be a symbolic representation from the eternal loop he is trapped.

Now, although Kaworu is trapped in a loop, we don't know if NGE is part of that loop. I think NGE being part of the loop (or not) is left to interpretation of the audience.

Every time kaworu dies, he travels to another reality. Could it work like this?

We see frames of nge / eoe in the indumenstralid, maybe it is from the antiverse

How and when does a cycle start or end? We don't know, but if 3.0 + 1.0 is a direct sequel to that, it destroys nge and eoe.

Like I said before, I don't think the world will reboot at the end of eoe. But we don't know, we just speculate

But does it really matter if it destroys NGE? Anno has always stated that he was unhappy with the ending of NGE, it wasn't what he wanted at all. It's also quite possible he wasn't happy with EOE after all this time as well, but even so I don't see how a sequel/timeloop 'destroys' EoE, it was simply one of the 'bad' endings that required yet another reset, yet another Kaworu coming awake to try and get through to Shinji etc. This time, they finally got the ending right. (Be that the characters, or the writers.)

[Stuart]

SPOILER: Show

The big question I have for this scene is: how did this happen?

My take on this is, it's Anno's way of forcing us to part with our immature attachment to Asuka. Shinji and Asuka have both finally accepted that they used to have a crush on each other, but also accepted that it's in the past.

Asuka in this scene is drawn in a really weird hentai doujin kind of way. I think it's Anno letting us know that it's time to part with the Asuka that we all used to fap to. That's why the scene takes place on this beach - it's where Asuka expressed her disgust at being fapped to. It's a "move on and grow up" moment.

By pairing up Asuka with Kensuke, Anno's created a pairing which no-one ships and no-one was expecting, just like with Mari and Shinji. The jerk-off fantasies end here, both for Shinji and for us.

[Bonifatus]

I don’t know that if use the word sequel, I’m not sure there is a good word for it, but I’ve always been a loop theory proponent for this series in one way or another and I’ll die on that hill. I don’t think that has to mean that NGE or EoE is meaningless… Eva is an internal story, it’s about what happens to Shinji as a person rather than what happens to the world around him. If we acknowledge that the primary conflict in the series is internal and that everything that happens in the wider world is just setting the stage for that conflict to play out, it makes a lot of sense that the story of Eva happens again and again in different ways. I don’t think the nature of the loop needs to be described beyond that, it’s just not important. What matters the message.

[Semi-Evolved]

SPOILER: Show

But does it really matter if it destroys NGE? Anno has always stated that he was unhappy with the ending of NGE, it wasn't what he wanted at all. It's also quite possible he wasn't happy with EOE after all this time as well, but even so I don't see how a sequel/timeloop 'destroys' EoE, it was simply one of the 'bad' endings that required yet another reset, yet another Kaworu coming awake to try and get through to Shinji etc. This time, they finally got the ending right. (Be that the characters, or the writers.)

The argument of it being a sequel "destroying" NGE/EoE is asinine in the first instance. The completion of a story doesn't eliminate the journey to get there - EoE effectively becomes a half-way point in the characters' journey. I'd go so far as to say the events of NGE/EoE were essential stop along that journey - that RoE itself loses meaning without EoE.

[rangure0412]

Asuka in this scene is drawn in a really weird hentai doujin kind of way. I think it's Anno letting us know that it's time to part with the Asuka that we all used to fap to. That's why the scene takes place on this beach - it's where Asuka expressed her disgust at being fapped to. It's a "move on and grow up" moment

Do you already see the movie this actually seems the opposite. During all the movie there was tons of sexual fan-service. I was like seriously? The ass of Rei, Mari, Sakura. Mari and Asuka completely nude, close-up of the panties of Asuka, etc.

Really it seems like, here you have you damn perverts tons of material.

[BernardoCairo]

Again, I decided to merge these threads (Your opinions... + So Rebuild is sequel of NGE/EoE or not?), as they were very similar to each other. Guys, let's try not to repeat themes so often.

[khronos]

I'll repost a comment I've made a while ago complementing it after watching the last movie:

"I don’t believe the rebuild movies are directly connected to the original series. I think Anno just wanted to say that he revisited his old work and he’s ready to give it a new meaning in contrast to the earlier “ending” (End of Evangelion) with a “new beginning” (Thrice upon a time).

I think the original series was the “once upon a time”, with EoE being “the end”, the first three rebuilds, “twice upon a time” and, for the sake of a more hopeful final chapter, the last that was meant to be “the end” actually received the name of Thrice upon a time or “a new beginning” which does make sense parting from Shinji's isolated role in :3.0 to a different beginning, + 1.0 - the plus here sounds like the hopeful beginning I was talking about."

Great part of Thrice upon a time is indeed with Shinji isolating himself from others (:3.0) and the "end" is actually a new (and hopeful) beginning (+ 1.0).

EoE= ends with Shinji in despair
TUaT= a hopeful beginning for Shinji

[Natalie the Cat]

Spiritual successor? Sure. Reboot? Sure. Thematic sequel? Sure.

Actual sequel? No, for the simple reason that it doesn't include any of the same characters. Even if Kaworu is the same Kaworu from both series, he's not a main character and that connection doesn't make it a sequel. It's a separate retelling of the same story -on a most basic level- not a continuation. It doesn't alter or re-contextualize the original (although, in all honesty, even sequels don't do that- the whole idea of a sequel ruining a prior work is absurdly petty)

[Konja7]

Actual sequel? No, for the simple reason that it doesn't include any of the same characters. Even if Kaworu is the same Kaworu from both series, he's not a main character and that connection doesn't make it a sequel. It's a separate retelling of the same story -on a most basic level- not a continuation. It doesn't alter or re-contextualize the original (although, in all honesty, even sequels don't do that- the whole idea of a sequel ruining a prior work is absurdly petty)

If Kaworu is the same Kaworu, it would be implied that Shinji is the same Shinji (maybe Rei is the same Rei too). After all, Shinji is trapped in the same loop too even if he doesn't have memories until the Instrumentality. So, in that case, the connection would the main character.

That said, it isn't confirmed that the loop included NGE. I think Anno wants to leave that to interpretation.


PS: I totally agree that a sequel wouldn't recontextualize the original, especially if a person doesn't want this.

[Natalie the Cat]

SPOILER: Show

If Kaworu is the same Kaworu, it would be implied that Shinji is the same Shinji (maybe Rei is the same Rei too). After all, Shinji is trapped in the same loop too even if he doesn't have memories until the Instrumentality. So, in that case, the connection would the main character.

That said, it isn't confirmed that the loop included NGE. I think Anno wants to leave that to interpretation.


PS: I totally agree that a sequel wouldn't recontextualize the original, especially if a person doesn't want this.

He's not the same Shiji, that's made abundantly clear. He's not the same dude who like, rebooted the universe ala one of the ten thousand peggy sue fics. He's a different person who has the same name and roughly same experiences but is living his own story. The only common link if there is one, is Kaworu.

Worth noting, also, that the coffins on the moon go in a circle. There probably is no before or after and thus can be no sequels. Or they're all concurrent, because a circle has no starting point. Or it just looked cool.

[Konja7]

He's not the same Shiji, that's made abundantly clear. He's not the same dude who like, rebooted the universe ala one of the ten thousand peggy sue fics. He's a different person who has the same name and roughly same experiences but is living his own story. The only common link if there is one, is Kaworu.

During the Instrumentality, Shinji mentioned that he has meeting Kaworu another times. This is to imply that he is also trapped in the loop. Not to mention that Shinji's name is also listed in the book of life.

So, if Kaworu is the same Kaworu from NGE, Shinji should be the same Shinji from NGE (in a soul aspect at least).


As I said, NGE being part of the loop (or not) is left to interpretation by Anno. So, I don't see the issue.

[T. K. Simon]

As I said in another thread, in my opinion rebuild and nge and eoe seem to be different realities, which are connected through a common medium during indumenstrality (golgota). It is not confirmed that nge / eoe are part of the loops.

That Shinji remember his "past lives" could also be due to the golgota object, which by linking realities, also links memories up to the moment of indumenstrality, and as in the book of life Shinji is written, therefore it has the same soul in each version , I could have remembered / seen those "memories"

PS: I was a bit overworked when I said "kill"

[mastafishere]

Having just watched it again, I change my thoughts and say that the Rebuilds aren’t a sequel. The way I understood it this time is that Misato’s father was able to look into the chambers of Guf and prove the capabilities of the impacts by looking into other realities, specifically the reality of NGE. Gendo took this research and saw what was possible.

By that logic, it’s possible that this happened in NGE too, that Katsuragi looked into the Rebuild reality and saw what was possible and that influenced NGE Gendo. So neither came before or after the other, but both influenced one another.

That only leaves the pesky coffins on the moon. Well, Kaworu couldn’t have come from those coffins in NGE, because those coffins weren’t there (and neither was the red blood stripe, if indeed this was all a loop). Also, in NGE, he had a “birth” date but that could be fake too, I guess. Sure, you could argue that NGE was the first of many loops, but that doesn’t seem right either.

I’m really stuck on this. Him literally rising from a coffin, and us seeing previous coffins seem to explicitly state that Kaworu has been born multiple times in this reality and has met Shinji and died many times within it, which would suggest one timeline and a linear path between Kaworu’s. So far I haven’t seen anyone really argue the contrary in a way that’s satisfying to me and I’d really like to see it.

[T. K. Simon]

It may be possible that rebuild has its own restart / loop, and that kaworu being a "divine" being or angel, is aware of this, as well as other realities

PD: We could also consider reality, as a dimension