Quality of NTE containment thread

[Konja7]

Personally, I haven’t seen any arguments for how it is executed well (beyond merely pointing out that the authorial intent is clearly stated), but admittedly I have not read the post backlog from between the Japanese and international release, and do not comprehensively read every post in these threads, either. And before Blockio chimes in, asking someone to defend why they think something is good is very different from asking someone to defend why they enjoyed something. There’s plenty of things I enjoy which I openly acknowledge are kinda trashy and have little artistic merit, and conversely there’s a lot of things that I can recognize as quality art but you couldn’t pay me to sit through them without falling asleep.

I don’t mean any of this in a patronizing manner, I genuinely want to just get a better grasp on where your opinion is coming from. Is the crux of your argument that clearly stating the authorial intent and not having it be directly contradicted by anything that happens is sufficient to call it “good”? Or do you believe that there IS a deeper thematic support for these ideas that “critics” aren’t seeing? If it’s the former, then we’ve reached the core of the disagreement in that we have very different expectations for what constitutes a well-executed story. If it’s the latter, then it should be easy to formulate a clear argument citing the specific moments that you think contributes positively to expressing the authorial intent.

In my case, when it's about character development or plot, I think something is good if I enjoy it (or bad if I don't). I know this sounds pretty centrist, but these are my honest feelings.

I don't think an objective opinion can be formed about whether the writing of the characters or the plot is good or not. After all, people are drawn by different things in these aspects.

Generally the way I approach my argument is by establishing why I thought X character/theme was handled well in NGE, establishing that all or most of what I thought made them good in NGE is missing in the Rebuilds, and if applicable, suggest an alternative that I personally think would have worked better, thematically, within the constraints of the Rebuild’s narrative and structure*. This raises another point of contention: is the fundamental disagreement in that you think it’s not fair to judge specific elements of the Rebuilds by comparing them to NGE?

Yeah. This is probably influenced by my relatively low appreciation for NGE, but I've never felt the need to compare NGE and NTE.

That's why I don't mind the way Asuka is developed in NTE (although I quite prefer Asuka in NGE). I think the character is fine for her role in NTE and the audience gets to know enough about the character to care about her (especially in 3.0+1.0).

[nerv bae]

The “critics” are arguing that the some theme/message/character motivation/etc. is poorly conveyed (unstated implication: through character action or behavior or emotion or etc.) and when the “defenders” see that (admittedly not 100% precisely stated) argument they rebut that said theme/message/character motivation/etc. is literally clearly stated in the text. But this completely misses the point of the original criticism, which was never about the existence of authorial intent as told through expository dialogue, but rather about how well it is executed/conveyed/reinforced by the events of the story. Technically both sides are right, it’s just that “defenders” pointing out that XYZ is literally stated in dialogue or exposition isn’t a counter-argument to the “critics” claim that the Rebuilds are poorly written, because the accusations of poor writing aren’t rooted in a lack of clearly identifiable theme/message/character motivation, but rather in how said theme/message/character motivation is actually conveyed or reinforced emotionally by the events of the story.

I think this is a fair point about how I've been approaching this topic as one of the "defenders." The liberal arts side of my brain is woefully underdeveloped and that's the excuse I'll use for why a lot of my "defense" has pointed to the mere existence of authorial intent, rather than its quality. The next time I have a point to make in this topic, I'll try to improve in this sense.

[BernardoCairo]

I find it funny how someone can like something as NTE and not be a fan of NGE. In all honesty, 99% of the enjoyment I got from NTE was only there because I had already watched NGE and EOE and was therefore already a fan. Sure, my first exposure to EVA was through 1.11, but it left such a weak impression on me at the time... Only in hindsight, after watching both the original series and the other movies, I started to appreciate it for what it was, which is pretty much bait. It leads you to think you're about to experience a lesser version of the good old EVA, only to welcome you with a completely new (but equally lesser) take on the series.
As you all know, I despise 2.22 very deeply. However, the best things about it are precisely derived from the expectations that we, as longtime NGE fans, have when approaching it. I would say that things like Toji not being Unit 03's pilot and how the movie plays with it are its beat strengths, as everything else is just either a complete mess or generic as all hell.
I don't even need to talk about the last movie, which pretty much drops the responsibility of wrapping up the other three movies to instead conclude the franchise as a whole. The last third of that film is pretty much more about NGE than NTE.
The only movie which stands out, at least when it comes to this, is 3.33 in all of its wackiness. That's primarily because it drops basic concepts of storytelling and pacing, of course. But even then it expects the viewer to be familiar with the original material in order to fully appreciate some of it nuances.
The movies, by design, don't completely stand on their own. So not liking NGE and liking NTE or even preferring the latter to the former is absolutely incomprehensible to me on levels I can't even describe. In my perspective, you're a madman Konja HAHAHAHAHA! (just kidding)

[Archer]

In my case, when it's about character development or plot, I think something is good if I enjoy it (or bad if I don't). I know this sounds pretty centrist, but these are my honest feelings.

I think this is a fair point about how I've been approaching this topic as one of the "defenders." The liberal arts side of my brain is woefully underdeveloped and that's the excuse I'll use for why a lot of my "defense" has pointed to the mere existence of authorial intent, rather than its quality. The next time I have a point to make in this topic, I'll try to improve in this sense.

Not gonna pretend you two speak for all the “defenders” and that I speak for all the “critics”… but I suspect that, at its core, THIS is the real root cause for probably 90% of the disagreements regarding the Rebuilds.

I don't think an objective opinion can be formed about whether the writing of the characters or the plot is good or not. After all, people are drawn by different things in these aspects.

Okay, to be fair, I’m also conflating (…more or less) objective qualities, such as “is X character’s action during the climax consistent with their characterization and development?”, with the subjective value judgment of “good” or “well-written”. Now of course, different people can have different opinions on whether or not “X character’s action during the climax is consistent with their characterization and development”, but this is at least a debate that can be couched in specific textual evidence. When I say “X is a well-written character”, what’s ACTUALLY being implied is, “In my opinion, a character who is portrayed consistently and is given good development throughout the series can be considered “well-written”; based on A, B, C textual evidence, I believe that X character has a consistent characterization that grows through the series; therefore, based on the textual evidence I have presented and the metrics I have defined for what I consider to be a well-written character, I believe that X is a well-written character.” Obviously it’s impossible to fully remove subjectivity from the interpretation and critique of media, but we can at least get on a common playing field where we are being as objective as reasonably possible given the context.

Yeah. This is probably influenced by my relatively low appreciation for NGE, but I've never felt the need to compare NGE and NTE.

See, up until 3.0+1.0, I would’ve agreed on principle that the Rebuilds should be judged independently as their own separate thing, because through 3.0, the Rebuilds DO have their own consistent, self-contained narrative that can theoretically be enjoyed and understood independently, without having ever watched NGE. I’m also one of those weirdos who actually watched the Rebuilds first (this was well into the hiatus, so I binged 1.0-3.0 all in one sitting) and it passed at least a basic level of coherency such that I could mostly follow the plot and understand what was going on without wondering “huh why did that happen?” every five minutes only to Google it and find out that it’s some reference to NGE that I couldn’t have possibly understood without watching beforehand.

However, 3.0+1.0 is so transparently and in-your-face metatextual that I argue it not just invites, but demands comparison to NGE. It literally starts at the title - far as I can tell, Thrice Upon a Time makes absolutely NO SENSE as a standalone title, and can ONLY be understood in its metatextual context as the third “ending of Evangelion”, after EoTV and EoE. This after 1.0, 2.0 and 3.0’s titles, which are all fairly easy to understand within the context of the Rebuild’s own self-contained narrative. I simply cannot comprehend a new viewer going into this movie without having watched NGE and being able to piece together what the hell is going on. There are MAJOR plot points that, as far as I can interpret, ONLY makes sense watching the movie metatextually as a “goodbye to all of Evangelion”. Most notably, the goddamned loop. If we ignore the existence of NGE, and consider ONLY the four Rebuild movies as their own narrative, which can broadly be said to be a maturing/coming of age story for Shinji… how the HELL does the loop play into this, thematically? Ignoring 1.0 which is mostly just a re-introduction to the world… I think broadly speaking 2.0 and 3.0 actually have a pretty solid narrative and thematic through-line, where 2.0 could be said to involve Shinji learning to do things for himself instead of just following other people’s orders (culminating with him trying to save Rei because it’s what he wants to do), while 3.0 could be said to involve Shinji learning that free will is a double-edged sword: being free to make your own choices means taking credit for success, but it also means taking the blame for failure, and that desperately trying to undo your mistake isn’t going to fix things, and is indeed liable to make things even worse. Now, broadly speaking, 3.0+1.0 DOES provide the logical thematic follow-up: the correct path forward isn’t to wallow in regret wishing you could’ve done things differently, but to take responsibility for what you’ve done, make amends with those you’ve wronged and doing your best to make things right going forward. And I think 3.0+1.0 does a reasonably good job of communicating this theme… until the god damned friggin loop.

Introducing an in-universe time loop implies that Shinji has fucked up countless times before this, and only on this loop does he learn to take responsibility for his actions, let go of the past, and move on towards a brighter future. The thing is though, the main crux of Shinji’s journey toward making this realization is basically over by Act 1, when he steps on the Wunder, ready to pilot the Eva again - not on someone else’s orders, not to atone for the past and desperately try to fix his mistakes, but as his own choice, to start making things right. This all happens well before Shinji or the audience is aware of any time loop. Which begs the question: what changed in this iteration to cause this change in perspective in Shinji? It certainly isn’t anything HE did knowingly, because he’s only ever made aware of the time loop AFTER he “recovers”. The only reasonable assumption is that this time Kaworu did something different as he, being the instigator of the loop, is likely the only character capable of enacting any changes between loops. But then, if a key theme is Shinji’s self-actualization, then having the agent of change in his life being a third party making changes without his knowledge undermines that as his own achievement in introspection and self-reflection. And in the hypothetical scenario that Shinji DID find out about the looping earlier, and used his newfound knowledge of the loops to make different decisions this time around that finally yielded a happy ending, this would ALSO undermine the idea of his “growth” as the result of a fundamentally introspective thought process.

Seriously, I think the one thing I can confidently say the Rebuilds handle REALLY well, 10/10 wouldn’t change a thing, is the portrayal of his “recovery” in Village-3. It does an amazing job (within the constraints of being just 1/3 of an already bloated runtime) of semi-realistically portraying someone recovering from grief/emotional trauma/depression. In that state of mind, there is nothing anybody could actively do to help you - the only thing they can do is to be there for you, and be patient waiting for you as you work on yourself. And this is, in fact, how it goes: Rei goes to visit him every day, but she doesn’t actively DO anything for him - she CAN’T actively do anything for him, but her very presence signals to him (perhaps unconsciously) that she cares about him, and wants him to get better. Asuka certainly isn’t the type to make her presence known, and I don’t recall if it’s ever shown or implied that he ever notices her watching him from the shadows at the abandoned NERV facility, but it’s at least a signal to the audience that despite her cold demeanor, she too cares about Shinji, and is likely relaying his status back to at least Kensuke and possibly the others as well. The best part is that he doesn’t suddenly come to an epiphany in a couple of days - it’s implied that he’s sulking at the destroyed NERV base for at least several weeks, if not several months (idk, maybe you’d be able to make a rough estimate from Rei Q’s rice farming activity?), and when he’s finally crawled out from his hole and is ready to face the future, everyone welcomes him back with open arms, happy to see him well again. IMO, the implications of a time loop - that his recovery and self-actualization in this final loop isn’t the result of deep introspection and self-reflection, but is in fact due to the influence of a third party (presumably Kaworu.. somehow?), or due to supernatural knowledge gained from knowledge of the time loop - COMPLETELY destroys this very beautiful and very human sequence.

Warning, Madoka Magica Spoilers (if you’ve watched it you will know why it’s relevant):

SPOILER: Show

Madoka Magica is my favorite time-loop story, because unlike in 3.0+1.0, not only is the time-loop used as an in-universe justification for Madoka’s inexplicably high power level (something that is initially assumed to be a plot contrivance because of course the protagonist must be special), it also works on a thematic level: Madoka, like Shinji, is a character who largely lacks agency. The time loop is an absolutely BRILLIANT reinforcement of that theme, revealing that this entire time Madoka has been, for all intents and purposes, the princess at the end of the level that Homura has died countless times trying to save. What triggers the change in the final loop is that this is the first time she’s made aware of that she’s actually been stuck in a time loop this whole time. Empowered by the knowledge of the looping events, and realizing that Homura has basically soft-locked herself into a no-win scenario where every possible decision ends in Madoka transforming into a witch and detonating the planet with her countless time-loops worth of accumulated magical girl energy, Madoka is able to finally take agency and make the decision to sacrifice herself to save her friend from the endless hell that she was trapped in. The reason the time loop doesn’t contradict the theme in Madoka Magica is because while she is spurred on by Kyubey revealing the time loop, she still retains her agency by deciding to act based on that information. Honestly, it’s not dissimilar to Shinji going after Rei at the end of 2.0 after being spurred on by Misato’s encouragement.

So basically my thesis is that the time loop actively contradicts and undermines a core emotional/thematic pillar of the movie, which is the idea that Shinji’s growth is organic and self-actualized. So why the hell does it exist? Well, as a metatextual reference to the IRL “loops” of NGE and EoE. And before anyone gets on my ass, I hate loop theory and the idea that NGE/EoE literally happens in the same continuity as the Rebuilds; I am talking purely metatextually where the “in universe” loop (which isn’t explained beyond being something that Kaworu did) is a metatextual metaphor for the IRL sequence of NGE>EoE>Rebuilds. I’ve written this before, but when considered metatextually, the key change from NGE/EoE is that instead of being literally isolated from anyone who could possibly help him, Shinji is now surrounded by people who care about him and want him to get better, and is merely psychologically isolating himself from them. So, even when considered metanarratively, this yields the unsatisfying implied message that the answer to depression is to just have a support network that will be endlessly patient with you, and that if you don’t, well… guess you can just go fuck yourself. I hope I don’t have to explain why, thematically, this is an absolutely terrible and counter-productive message, and I think this is likely where most of the accusations of 3.0+1.0 being “toxic positivity” or a “unearned happy ending” comes from. When you go one more level up though, it makes a lot more sense: the loop is no longer about Shinji, but about Anno, the writer of Shinji. The bleak ending of NGE/EoE would’ve been reflective of his own depression at the time, where the psychological isolation of feeling that nobody cares about you was reflected in Shinji’s literal isolation at the end of Ep 24. Whereas the “final” loop reflects Anno in a much healthier state of mind, and the new inclusion of a support system that helps him through is recovery is symbolic of the realization that, this entire time, there were ALWAYS people that cared about him. Narratively, the message of the movie is actively undermined by the time loop. Metanarratively, the message is completely nonsensical at best, actively harmful at worst. Go up one more level though, though, it’s very obviously Anno reflecting on his work and his change in mental state, and I highly doubt that he meant it to be instructive for how you should live your life or how you can cure your own depression.

TL;DR
Anyway, that was way too long of a text wall for me to basically say that I think that when taken at a narrative level, the inclusion of the time loop completely undermines the message of the Rebuilds, of Shinji growing through introspection and self-reflection, with the passive love and support of his friends. Even one level of meta-narrative up (the metatextual loop between NGE/EoE and Rebuilds), the implied message - “just have a support network lmao” - is at best nonsensical and unhelpful, and is at worst actively harmful to someone in a similar position who might be watching the movie. However, when you go one more level beyond the metatextual (patatextual?), and consider the loop not for Shinji the fictional character as viewed by the audience throughout the Evangelion franchise, but for Anno the writer whose mental state was reflected metaphorically in the scenarios he put Shinji in between NGE/EoE and Rebuilds, the inclusion of the loop as a not a narrative device to convey the themes of the Rebuilds as a standalone narrative, or even a meta-narrative device to reflect on the development of the Evangelion franchise as a work of fiction that exists in the real world, but as a patanarrative device that reflects on Anno’s own growth since NGE, filtered through the fictional abstraction of his magnum opus. It’s late, I have not and probably will not edit this text-wall for clarity so I cannot guarantee it makes any sense structurally… the only thing I’m reasonably sure about is that I’m about pata levels up my own ass right now.

STILL TL;DR

[Konja7]

Seriously, I think the one thing I can confidently say the Rebuilds handle REALLY well, 10/10 wouldn’t change a thing, is the portrayal of his “recovery” in Village-3. It does an amazing job (within the constraints of being just 1/3 of an already bloated runtime) of semi-realistically portraying someone recovering from grief/emotional trauma/depression. In that state of mind, there is nothing anybody could actively do to help you - the only thing they can do is to be there for you, and be patient waiting for you as you work on yourself. And this is, in fact, how it goes: Rei goes to visit him every day, but she doesn’t actively DO anything for him - she CAN’T actively do anything for him, but her very presence signals to him (perhaps unconsciously) that she cares about him, and wants him to get better. Asuka certainly isn’t the type to make her presence known, and I don’t recall if it’s ever shown or implied that he ever notices her watching him from the shadows at the abandoned NERV facility, but it’s at least a signal to the audience that despite her cold demeanor, she too cares about Shinji, and is likely relaying his status back to at least Kensuke and possibly the others as well. The best part is that he doesn’t suddenly come to an epiphany in a couple of days - it’s implied that he’s sulking at the destroyed NERV base for at least several weeks, if not several months (idk, maybe you’d be able to make a rough estimate from Rei Q’s rice farming activity?), and when he’s finally crawled out from his hole and is ready to face the future, everyone welcomes him back with open arms, happy to see him well again. IMO, the implications of a time loop - that his recovery and self-actualization in this final loop isn’t the result of deep introspection and self-reflection, but is in fact due to the influence of a third party (presumably Kaworu.. somehow?), or due to supernatural knowledge gained from knowledge of the time loop - COMPLETELY destroys this very beautiful and very human sequence.

I've never interpreted the loop in that way. The loop is conveyed as a prison, but it's implied to have differences each time. I don't think anyone control these differences.

Kaworu couldn't really help Shinji to break the loop, because he is unable to see the core of the problem (that Shinji needs to change and grow). Not to mention that Kaworu is trapped (and feeling miserable) in the loop too.

At the end, it's because Shinji learns from Touji, Kensuke and Rei III in Village 3 that he could defeat Gendo and break the loop. At most, the changes in this life led to that "fortunate" situation, but Shinji changing wasn't planned by anyone.


PS: I think we can't confirm whether Kaworu created the loop or not. Kaji says Kaworu wrote Shinji name in the book of life, but it isn't sure if this means he created the loop.

[Archer]

Let’s accept at face value that what you said is true, and that what’s different about this loop is that he spends time in Village-3. Which, as I said in my post, from a metanarrative perspective is 100% true, in the most literal sense that it’s the key factor distinguishing NGE/EoE from the Rebuilds.

Generally speaking, a time loop symbolizes a feeling of a lack of agency, and the supernatural prison of a time loop is just a metaphor for a psychological prison that is holding the protagonist back, which they cannot escape until they make some deep personal revelation about themselves, recognize what was holding them back, and actively try to change for the better. The loop itself is a metaphor for the journey of introspection the protagonist goes from not even realizing they’re in a loop (not being conscious of the fact that they feel “stuck”), to being aware of the problem but feeling powerless to change anything, and after a long period of trial and error, finally learns the lesson the work is trying to impart and is able to grow as a person, finally allowing them to break free from a loop.

This interpretation of the time loop as a journey for personal growth DOES NOT fit the Rebuilds for the important reason that Shinji’s entire journey takes place inside that very last loop, and the thing that finally manages to break the loop ISN’T a key moment of self-reflection, but a change in external circumstances completely outside of his control. It’s not the self-reflection that’s the point of divergence, but rather him being in Village-3 in the first place, which is an external situation that was imposed ON him, not something he had any control or agency over. That’s why I say that when read on a meta-narrative level the message is at best nonsensical and at worst actively harmful: what separates NGE Shinji and Rebuild Shinji is that in NGE, through no fault of his own, and due to circumstances almost entirely out of his control, he is subjected to near complete isolation from anyone who could possibly help him; while in the Rebuilds, through no action of his own, and due to circumstances almost entirely out of his control, he ends up in a place where he has friends who care about him.

In essence, the way the story is set up, Shinji’s self-reflection is the result of an altered scenario when it really needs to be the catalyst for change. The true catalyst is something entirely out of his control, and is in fact something that as far as I can tell literally cannot be explained on anything BUT a meta-narrative level. Because in the context of just the Rebuilds as a stand-alone narrative, what is the event that causes Shinji to go to Village-3 in this loop in particular that didn’t happen on the previous loops? If it’s something that Kaworu or another independent actor influenced without Shinji’s knowledge or eventual acknowledgment, then the implication is that the only way to fix your problems is to have a more powerful third party looking out for you and putting you on a path to success. If it’s just random happenstance, then the implication is that life just isn’t fair, and that you’ll never be able to fix your problems unless you land a one-in-a-million dice roll that puts you in a favorable scenario. I don’t think I have to explain why neither message is particularly satisfying. Rebuild Shinji has done NOTHING different to earn this opportunity over NGE Shinji, and we cannot say that NGE Shinji, if given the same opportunity, would not also attain the same “enlightenment”. In fact I’d argue it’s all but outright stated that he likely WOULD have, given that the primary difference between them is that Rebuild Shinji went to Village-3 and NGE Shinji didn’t, rather than any significant difference in personality or outlook between them.

In essence, my point is that the breaking the time loop fails as a narrative device intended to symbolize introspection and character growth because the ultimate catalyst for change - Shinji going to Village-3 - is for all intents and purposes an event that is out of his control.

[nerv bae]

... So, even when considered metanarratively, this yields the unsatisfying implied message that the answer to depression is to just have a support network that will be endlessly patient with you, and that if you don’t, well… guess you can just go fuck yourself. I hope I don’t have to explain why, thematically, this is an absolutely terrible and counter-productive message, and I think this is likely where most of the accusations of 3.0+1.0 being “toxic positivity” or a “unearned happy ending” comes from. ...

... Because in the context of just the Rebuilds as a stand-alone narrative, what is the event that causes Shinji to go to Village-3 in this loop in particular that didn’t happen on the previous loops? If it’s something that Kaworu or another independent actor influenced without Shinji’s knowledge or eventual acknowledgment, then the implication is that the only way to fix your problems is to have a more powerful third party looking out for you and putting you on a path to success. If it’s just random happenstance, then the implication is that life just isn’t fair, and that you’ll never be able to fix your problems unless you land a one-in-a-million dice roll that puts you in a favorable scenario. I don’t think I have to explain why neither message is particularly satisfying. Rebuild Shinji has done NOTHING different to earn this opportunity over NGE Shinji, and we cannot say that NGE Shinji, if given the same opportunity, would not also attain the same “enlightenment”. ...

I think your last two posts in this topic, which I quote excerpts from above, raise good points about the time loop. I don't have the brainpower this morning to make a thoughtful, long-form response, but I do have an idle thought: in each excerpt you identify an unsatisfactory message that you hope you don't need to explain. But, what if those explanations you're avoiding would change our perspective on the time loop, such that we begin to see it in a positive light in an authorial sense? What if "the answer to depression is to just have a support network that will be endlessly patient with you", or "life just isn’t fair, and ... you’ll never be able to fix your problems unless you land a one-in-a-million dice roll that puts you in a favorable scenario"? I'm not taking a position on whether these messages are bleak, or are intended by the author, or if accepted would render the time loop a better storytelling device. Rather, I'm just wondering whether by traveling to these here-be-dragons regions we can learn something.

If this is grim or unhelpful, well, I'm still very sleepy.

[Arcadia's legacy]

On the topic of loops (which may require splitting into a different thread), after Thrice, I just assumed that the only one looping was Kaworu, and that when Shinji mentions remembering that beach scene, it has more to do with the fact that in the rules-absent Negative universe, he now has access to memories of Shinji's of alternate realities. So in theory, Shinji's path is still a linear one

[Archer]

I think your last two posts in this topic, which I quote excerpts from above, raise good points about the time loop. I don't have the brainpower this morning to make a thoughtful, long-form response, but I do have an idle thought: in each excerpt you identify an unsatisfactory message that you hope you don't need to explain. But, what if those explanations you're avoiding would change our perspective on the time loop, such that we begin to see it in a positive light in an authorial sense?

I actually do directly address this in my conclusion… which I wrote at 2:30AM and is, looking back, a giant confusing run-on sentence. So I will re-state it more articulately here:

I think that when taken at a narrative level, the inclusion of the time loop completely undermines the message of the Rebuilds, of Shinji growing through introspection and self-reflection, with the passive love and support of his friends. Even one level of meta-narrative up (the metatextual loop between NGE/EoE and Rebuilds), the implied message - “just have a support network lmao” - is at best nonsensical and unhelpful, and is at worst actively harmful to someone in a similar position who might be watching the movie.

However, if you go up one more level and consider the loop not for Shinji the fictional character as perceived by the audience, but for Shinji the fictionalized reflection of creator Hideaki Anno, the loop finally starts to make sense as a literary device. It is not a narrative device to convey the themes of the Rebuilds as a standalone movie, or even a meta-narrative device to reflect on the evolution of the Evangelion franchise as a work of fiction, but rather a patanarrative device that reflects on Anno’s own personal growth since writing NGE. Anno reflects his own change in mental state through the different scenarios he put Shinji in: in NGE, the psychological isolation and alienation of depression is mirrored in Shinji’s physical isolation and alienation from everyone around him. In the Rebuilds, that physical barrier is removed to reflect the newfound realization that there were always people who cared.

The same reading can be applied to the whole “goodbye all of Evangelion” thing, too. Interpreting it narratively yields the unsatisfying conclusion that the solution to Shinji’s problems is creating a new world where Evangelions never existed, running counter to the obvious intended message of moving forward instead of trying to un-do the past. Interpreting it meta-narratively also makes no sense, as telling your fans to move on from the incredibly popular franchise that you created is obviously stupid, and also directly contradicted by the fact that Anno clearly still intends on profiting off the Eva franchise going forward in the future, having stated multiple times that he would like to see other creators do their own takes on Eva-related projects. However, if you take it one level up, it’s clear that 3.0+1.0 is Anno saying goodbye to his personal direct creative involvement in Evangelion. In essence, when Shinji says “goodbye all of Evangelion”, he is not speaking for himself, nor is he speaking to the audience: he is speaking as Hideaki Anno, saying goodbye to all of Evangelion; not the Evangelion the decades-spanning multimedia franchise and merchandising venture, but Evangelion that is his deeply personal magnum opus.

This is kind of goes back to my very mixed thoughts on the Rebuilds: I think that from the Rebuilds (and 3.0+1.0 specifically) are a very interesting commentary on Anno’s experience writing Evangelion, and reflective of his own personal growth after that. However, it completely fails to stand on its own as a self-contained narrative. It also misses a big part of why NGE continues to be relevant 25 years after release: while NGE is a story that reflects Anno’s personal struggles with depression, its core themes of isolation, alienation, and being afraid to connect with others for fear of being hurt are immediately relatable to anyone who has gone through something similar. However, the core message of 3.0+1.0 - what I believe the ACTUAL authorial intent is, not the (presumably unintended) “unsatisfying” readings I have pointed out as (presumably unintentional) logical implications of the textual evidence - is directly relatable to literally nobody BUT Hideaki Anno, and possibly any of the other creators who have worked closely with him on Eva since the beginning. This is why I think the Rebuilds will not age particularly well, because their intended narrative and metanarrative ideas are greatly muddled if not completely undermined by their main purpose as Anno’s personal closure on the franchise that he spawned.

[Axx°N N.]

Honestly, I don't find it interesting even when viewed under the lens of Anno self-talk. Shin is full of dialog that makes me feel nothing for what's being spoken, action scenes that actively make me unexcited, structure that violates my trust and suspension of disbelief, and pacing that does the opposite of engross--none of which point to anything like growth or evolution in an artistic sense. And frankly, in a personal sense, it doesn't really give any meaningful angle on depression or much of anything, and so doesn't convey to me how Anno has grown in the context of the subject matter. We're in a world rife with meaningful avenues to tackle that are of serious consequence, and Anno as an artist is instead hyper-fixated and preoccupied (for a decade!) on the dilemma of facing his already finished artistic work, which no one compelled him to do and which has no bearing outside of the films themselves. As a redo, it doesn't even meaningfully elaborate on anything explored in NGE aside from a more overt, direct, instructional focus on group support and forgiveness, which isn't articulated meaningfully in an artistic sense, but more like in the fashion of platitudes, and taken for what they are, they're readily-agreeable sentiments that are already accounted for on a decade's worth of daytime TV. This is just me speaking, but if Shin were actually to be growth artistically and personally, it would have been a far more serious affair than the semi-schlock that it is.

Case in point, when Anno talks of the portrayal of depression BTS, it's within the context of making a general, assumed non-depressive audience understand Shinji's depression. Personally, I look to films to see artists doing away with formalities and commercial considerations or anything that actively interferes with writing to an assumed audience of those on the exact same level playing field. To put it a different way, I don't see the point in a movie about depression if it's not made to emulate what depression actually feels like to an uncomfortable degree, in a form readily identifiable and relatable in the fullest way to a much narrower presumed audience of the actually or once depressed. I don't think films should condescend or attempt to hide their ugliness for the sake of wider appeal if they're to have artistic integrity. But this is in line with NTE's general concern of commercialism that it's had as a premise from the start.

Now, that's not all an effort to poo-poo popcorn fun, which I enjoy depending on said flick, but Shin is presenting itself as a meaningful commentary and has schlock and I wonder if the real issue, aside from pacing and characterization and whatever, is this more inherent issue of not knowing what it's wanting to be and trying to inhabit too many things at once that are diametrically opposed. Like, EoE is in a serious, grim, poetic mode, and everything compliments this--Asuka's fight with the MPEs is exciting and genuinely good under the lens of actions scenes as action scenes, but it's also choreographed in a way that treats the entire incident with dramatic gravity. Compare this to Shin, which is trying to be metatextual, elegaic, affirmational, but then the fight scenes feel like they're from a Michael Bay movie or video game cutscene or something.

I personally think there are degrees of objectivity in art; there are degrees of subjectivity and objectivity in reality, so I don't see why that doesn't hold true for art. There are specific traits and hallmarks to what makes art, or a specific piece of art good, and I don't see why the objective search for this in, say, an essay about Rodin, should be treated with the same merit as someone's subjective boredom when looking at Rodin--or more like, why do we have to treat the effort that was put into the essay as on par with the person who, only reading the first three lines, got bored and gave up?

Shin reminds me of being in creative writing classes and seeing writers who were deeply emotionally moved by the act of writing their piece. And yet, the piece itself had little to no effect on outside readers, because one's personal relationship with their own work is a different matter entirely from the merit of the work for others. Think about, like, your everyday stream of thoughts--they're incredibly meaningful and moving to you, but if you were to transcribe them to paper, they'd probably be gibberish for anyone else. I won't speak to how profound Shin was or wasn't to Anno, but to echo Archer, I find myself alienated when trying to parse meaning merely because I'm not Anno, and I think (subjectively! ) that it's an objective flaw.

[Archer]

Honestly, I don't find it interesting even when viewed under the lens of Anno self-talk.

When I say “interesting” I mean in the same sense that it might be “interesting” to analyze, say, Ayn Rand literature. It has little value to in entertaining me on a purely surface level, and isn’t something I can pull much value out of thematically or narratively as a person with a non-insane worldview, but I think it’s interesting to analyze how the creator’s worldview is reflected in their work, and what they were trying to achieve by writing it.

that's not all an effort to poo-poo popcorn fun, which I have no issue with and enjoy depending on said flick, but Shin is presenting itself as a meaningful commentary and is schlock and I wonder if the real issue

Now, here’s a potentially hot take: I don’t think Anno is presenting Shin as meaningful commentary, and I don’t think he made NGE to be a meaningful commentary either. Unlike, say, Madoka Magica, which is expressly designed to be somewhat dark and subversive and thought-provoking; or even Anno’s own Shin Godzilla, which is fairly obviously a direct commentary on Japanese government bureaucracy and the disaster response in the Fukushima meltdown, I don’t think he set out to write what is possibly the most over-analyzed anime in history. I think NGE is a very raw and emotional story that’s meant to be experienced more than it is to be analyzed and picked apart; it’s just that, BECAUSE it was written “from the heart” about a common hardship that is universal across time and cultures, it was able to deeply resonate with a lot of people; and BECAUSE it was written “from the heart”, it had a degree of authenticity and realism such that even if it wasn’t explicitly intended to be meaningful commentary, people were nonetheless able to glean meaningful commentary out of it. Like, objectively speaking in purely technical terms, Evangelion’s plot can be confusing and inconsistent because it was at least partially written on the fly; but because a clear narrative/thematic through-line is always present, and the entire work is largely thematically consistent, it becomes easier to draw connections between disparate details that are not always explicitly connected in the plot. I think Evangelion analysis has also become so prolific that it’s almost like reading a side-by-side of a Shakespeare play: after 25 years of analysis and cultural osmosis, a lot of things that are reaaaaallly not that clearly presented in the plot, and not immediately clear on a first or even second watch-through, are basically common knowledge shared within the fandom, and I’m sure a lot of confused first-time viewers immediately follow up their first viewing by Googling “What is the meaning of Evangelion”. Might sound strange to be saying on this forum in particular, but I think framing Evangelion as this super deep and introspective commentary on the human condition is actually a mistake. I think what makes it so good is that it isn’t a measured and planned commentary, just raw expression.

To put it a different way, I don't see the point in a movie about depression if it's not made to emulate what depression actually feels like to an uncomfortable degree, in a form readily identifiable and relatable in the fullest way to a much narrower presumed audience of the actually or once depressed. I don't think films should condescend or attempt to hide their ugliness for the sake of wider appeal if they're to have artistic integrity.

Yeah, to put it bluntly, based on how the narrative was executed I really don’t think Shin is a movie about depression, just one that necessarily must include it as part of the semi-autobiographical nature of the thing it’s ACTUALLY about: Anno moving on from and saying goodbye to Evangelion.

[Axx°N N.]

I tend to agree on how you've framed NGE&EoE, but to my mind NTE engages in commentary because it's so self-reflexive. It would've been hard to completely avoid the baggage of being a follow-up to what Anno, at the time of making NTE, knew to be a narrative people at least regarded as having a serious significance. But it doesn't avoid it, and instead seems to lean into it pretty heavily. Whether intended as meaningful commentary or merely a raw expression about his viewpoint of a past raw expression, the cross-reference itself makes it seem like a statement. NGE&EoE were self-reflective like when a person introspects, but NTE is reflective (at least in part) in terms of comparing media to media, which makes the word "commentary" jump to mind. But I'm liable to chalk this up to differences of semantics.

Yeah, to put it bluntly, based on how the narrative was executed I really don’t think Shin is a movie about depression, just one that necessarily must include it as part of the semi-autobiographical nature of the thing it’s ACTUALLY about: Anno moving on from and saying goodbye to Evangelion.

Yeah, redefine "film about depression" to "film about Anno's experience with Eva" and apply it to what I said instead. What I'm left wondering is, in terms of really true-blue being honest artistically, does Thrice actually convey his personal feelings about Eva? Like any dark, hidden resentments or let's say, does Thrice resemble the result of Anno's own Instrumentality? There are elements of Shin that are pretty obviously metatextual in relation to that, but we shouldn't forget Tsurumaki apparently handled Asuka and Mari's character writing, and certain things were reworked for the sake of being relatable to a wide group of people, so "Shin is singularly about Anno's relationship with his franchise" might be inaccurate to a degree.

[Archer]

What I'm left wondering is, in terms of really true-blue being honest artistically, does Thrice actually convey his personal feelings about Eva? Like his dark, hidden resentments or let's say, does Thrice resemble the result of Anno's own Instrumentality?

Obviously I don’t know Anno and I can’t read his mind, so the following is just pure speculation with no grounding in any real evidence, but I’ve always seen it coming from the perspective of looking back at a difficult time, where because things worked out in the end, you tend to look back with rose-tinted goggles and reflect more on the nice parts.

I’m projecting some of my own experiences into this too, because I am specifically aware that I do this when thinking about clubs & activities I did in high school/college… in the moment what stands out is the sweat, the stress, the arguments, the late nights… in the moment there are DEFINITELY times I’ve considered quitting, but because they are experiences that I consider having an overall positive impact on my life and who I am today, looking back those negative aspects are just distant memories while the positive aspects still linger.

I view 3.0+1.0 sort of in that same way: because NGE ultimately turned out well and arguably had a positive impact on Anno, those “dark, hidden resentments” are recast in one’s mind as temporary obstacles on the road to success rather than the absolutely insurmountable walls they must have seemed in the moment or shortly after it. Whether or not you think this is “artistically dishonest” because it doesn’t try to reflect reality as it was, but rather an imperfect reflection of the past from the modern perspective of someone who eventually attained great success, is up to your personal opinion, but I’m of the opinion that 3.0+1.0 is honest to Anno’s true current-day feelings reflecting on Evangelion, rather than an intentional attempt to whitewash the past to make it more popularly accessible.

In short, while I would say NGE/EoE is, broadly speaking, “about” depression, I don’t think it was made with the intent of being a serious intellectual exploration of it. Similarly with 3.0+1.0, while it is, broadly speaking, “about” Anno’s feelings on Evangelion, I don’t think it was made with the intent of being a serious intellectual exploration but as a raw expression.

Whether intended as meaningful commentary or merely a raw expression about his viewpoint of a past raw expression, the cross-reference itself makes it seem like a statement. NGE&EoE were self-reflective like when a person introspects, but NTE is reflective (at least in part) in terms of comparing media to media, which makes the word "commentary" jump to mind. But I'm liable to chalk this up to differences of semantics.

It might very well be a semantic difference, because the entire perspective I’m coming at this from is what did Anno intend by it? Because I don’t think the Rebuilds were intended as a commentary on NGE as a narrative/story, but rather on NGE as a reflection of Anno’s personal growth. This is something that is relevant on a purely analytical/critical/academic level, and does nothing to inform the quality of the movie as a story that is deeply compelling or resonant with audiences. From a “death of the author” perspective, where we are concerned not with what the author intended but with what the story actually seems to be saying, intentionally or not, with how it is constructed, I think that the Rebuilds absolutely demand a comparison to NGE, because you’re right that with how self-referential it is, it is literally impossible to interpret it without also bringing up NGE. Which is why I think it is valid when criticizing the Rebuilds to draw direct comparisons to elements within NGE.

As a somewhat silly comparison I’m going to cite Charlie Kelly’s musical “The Nightman Cometh” from It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia as something that sort of illustrates this point. The *in-universe authorial intent* is that it’s a story about self-empowerment, but everyone who watches the musical thinks that it’s about a little boy who gets molested by the Nightman, because that is what the construction of the story suggests, regardless of whether or not it was consciously intended by the writer. Of course metatextually (to the audience of the show, rather than the in-universe audience of Charlie’s play) it’s implied that the reason for this is because it’s a subconscious reflection of the heavily-implied fact that he was molested or sexually abused by his uncle as a child. But in-universe, Charlie’s conscious authorial intent is irrelevant to the fact that the play can only be interpreted as being about a young boy being molested.

[Blockio]

After a widespread increase in baseline toxicity and combativeness when discussing NTE that has now surfaced elsewhere, this thread will be locked next to it until everyone has a few days to relax.
This forum is about productive discussion, not dragging all threads into a binary I don't like, so it's shit/no debate going nowhere.
We've been remiss in enforcing this lately, but it's become an issue beyond this thread (in theory, a containment zone), so we're going to shut it down completely for a few days.

[Gendo's Glasses]

It really bothers me more than it should that in 3.33, Gendo talks about actively rewriting SEELE's script and then takes out "SEELE's boy" and SEELE themselves and then the final film is like, oh, yeah, this is all SEELE's plan. 3.33 is filled with this idea that Gendo and SEELE are at odds and working together out of necessity. 2.22 features it, too! But it's just dropped. And I don't think I'll be able to get it out of my head that 3.33 points out that magical fixes with magical spears are basically a trap, and then the last film just... does it.

I think 3.33 is the best of all the Rebuild films and while I like the final film well enough, I do think it's not really building on the third film at all. It's also a shame because 3.33 has a better OST and far more memorable visuals with maybe the exception of Asuka's big glowing moment. I feel like everything from Unit 13 descending down into Terminal Dogma and the fields of skulls and seeing Lillith's decapitated corpse to the end of the film is some of the best Evangelion stuff. I think I mentioned when it came out that it's a wonderful capstone on Evangelion as a whole but, man, I don't think the last film was a good final film for the Rebuild itself.

[Konja7]

It really bothers me more than it should that in 3.33, Gendo talks about actively rewriting SEELE's script and then takes out "SEELE's boy" and SEELE themselves and then the final film is like, oh, yeah, this is all SEELE's plan. 3.33 is filled with this idea that Gendo and SEELE are at odds and working together out of necessity. 2.22 features it, too! But it's just dropped. And I don't think I'll be able to get it out of my head that 3.33 points out that magical fixes with magical spears are basically a trap, and then the last film just... does it.

Gendo doesn't follow SEELE's plan in 3.0+1.0. That's why Gendo needs the Additional Impact, while SEELE's plan would end with the Fourth Impact. This is outright mentioned in 3.0+1.0.

SEELE's plan was humanity "evolving" into a new race with Fruit of Life but without Fruit of Knowledge. Gendo doesn't want this, he wants to make humanity a hive mind (where there would be no division and he could be with Yui).

Maybe the confusion it's because Gendo's plan in NTE is similar to SEELE's plan in NGE. However, it's pretty different from SEELE's plan in NTE.


In 3.33, the trap was both Spears being the same (instead of a Spear of Cassius and a Spear of Longinus). I know some people felt the idea of "the Spears repairing the World" was a trap, but this seems influenced by their dislike at the idea that the Spears could solve the problems.

Honestly, I think the idea of using the Spears powers to repair the World was always the solution from the writers (and so they created this idea in 3.33). The goal of the story was to get Shinji into the right emotional state.

[TehDonutKing]

I like it when da robit men do adventure

[Blockio]

Yeah, as Konja said, Gendo is openly working against Seele's script in Shin. The wording is admittedly a bit obtuse, so it's understandable why you missed it, but every time Seele's plan is mentioned, it's implicitly or explicitly meant in contrast to what Gendo is doing

[DantesInferno]

Not sure if i mentioned this already elsewhere, but there was this theory from a Japanese video on YouTube where the spears, with their ability to write/rewrite the worls, are basically a metaphor for the creator's (i.e. Khara's artists') pencils.

And the Eva imaginary represents Khara/Anno itself. Shinji sees it as a black Lilith because as far as he knows, Lilith is the creator of all life on Earth so the creator of the world (NTE) is represented as a Lilith by the LCL.

Take it with a grain of salt!

[Blockio]

From an out of universe standpoint, that's a neat angle. It's not the only thing going on there, but it could well be one aspect to the whole