Quality of NTE containment thread

[roblucci01]

Let's all take a step back and talk about only the things we actually know about the movie, not our assumptions about what the movie will or will not do in areas that we haven't seen yet. Some of the things said in this thread are nothing short of bad faith premature judgement.

Just wanted to point out, I saw the film in theaters the other evening, and although I am not fluent in Japanese, I understood most of it. Additionally I went on to read the fan translated transcript the next day.

Is that sufficient enough? Although I will acknowledge your point that one of my previous replies was speculative. But as I said on another thread, a lot of the Eva experience is speculating, inferring, and interpreting based on one's background information and knowledge of the franchise. That's why I think *some of* the arguments against Shin are hollow.

On another note, let's recap some stuff, shall we. Prior to the release...
-People wanted to know what happened to Kaji. We got an answer.
-People wanted to know what happened to 2.0 Rei. We got an answer.
-People wanted to know what the Key of Nebuchadnezzar was and what it does. We got an answer.
-People wanted to know what happened to Toji, Hikari, Kensuke. We got an answer.
-People wanted to know what Asuka's eyepatch was for. We got an answer.
-People wanted to know why Asuka refers to humans as "Lilins". We got an answer.
-People wanted confirmation about the original Q preview (Mark 06 in the Dogma, Rei clones, Nagisa in the Commander outfit, ect). We got ANSWERS.
-People wanted closure between Shinji and Gendo. We got that.
-People wanted a wild Instrumentality sequence. We got that.

I could go on. But Anno was clearly trying to provide answers and context for most mysteries in Rebuild. Would people really have wanted a three hour or three and a half hour movie just to explain why WUNDER can transform into a spear or what Mari's full backstory is? Lore spoonfeeding and the filling of plotholes have never been a necessity for Eva to be successful in it's themes or message. Yet to a large extent, they actually did do that this time around.

Just one more thing I want to put out there:

The Evangelion fanbase has a much broader appeal and bigger fanbase than it once did. Largely due to NTE. Like, literal elementary school kids in Japan watch Eva. They grew up on Rebuild. So you're Anno, and now you have these new fans who started with Rebuild, the new fans that started with Netflix Eva, the old fans, Evageeks, the AsuShin fans, the KawoShin fans, ShinjixRei fans, the socially mature fans, the maladjusted fans, Western Fans, Japanese Fans, ect.... And you have to compile a film to satisfy all these wants needs and requirements while your movie has been in development hell for almost a decade in addition to time and monetary restraints.

So when I read thread titles blatantly saying things like Rebuild may "tarnish" or "devalue" Evangelion, or that Rebuild needs to meet a considerably small group of people's expectations for it to posses "artistic validity", I can't help but find that incredibly silly. This sums up my thoughts pretty succinctly:

"Art is SUBJECTIVE, Murray!... Isn't that what they say?"

But actually though.

I don't want it to sound like I'm saying people should like 3.0+1.0. There are people here that have been shitting all over NTE but although I disagree with them I acknowledge their arguments are in good faith. Here's the thing: when it comes to Rebuild, it is what it is. I think Anno, for the most part, did his best and made a good faith effort to deliver on several different fronts. Had the movie turned out any differently, ending or otherwise, I don't believe there would be any less complaining than there is now. Like I said, people complain every time a new Evangelion movie comes out. Even after 2.0, I remember it clearly. There's even a guy who would come here, routinely complain and troll/stir up shit about whatever new Rebuild movie just released in Japan by irrelevantly comparing it to things completely different from Eva. Then he would get banned, wait a few years, come back again, and rinse/repeat. Some people have just straight up never liked Rebuild, except when it was following the episode 1-6 script.

[NamvM74]

From what I can gleam so far, it just seems like she went full circle and is back at where she was in the beginning of Ha.

Is she though? She had nobody at the beginning of Ha, whereas here she at least has some kind of relationship with Kensuke. She's open enough to not really care if people see her completely naked, Kensuke doesn't bat an eye at it. Compare that to typical tsundere-flustering Asuka acting in typical tsundere fashion when Shinji sees her naked in Ha.

I don't read that scene as a sign of growth. In 2.0 she should be embarrassed that Shinji saw her naked that's a normal humane response to have. In 3.0+1.0 she doesn't care that he or Kensuke sees her naked. One gets the impression she would be happy to walk around but naked. She seems to have grown apart from her former humanity due to her clone and hybrid angel status. She doesn't care about what people see her as because she doesn't seem to care about or identify with people anymore. I know she protects the village but I get a strong Coriolanus vibe from her. A warrior who faithfully protects a village she is completely disconnected from.

[BernardoCairo]

From what I can gleam so far, it just seems like she went full circle and is back at where she was in the beginning of Ha. Whether or not you want to see that as a happy ending, given that she's better off than previously, or a sad ending, because all her struggles left her in the same place she already was, is of course up to you.

My problem with this interpretation is that you're just basing yourself on the last scene of the movie (in which Asuka is not a prominent character and is barely even noticeable). I mean, there are many other sequences in this film that show how Asuka is no longer alone (some even at the very early stages of the story). If she ended up in the same spot as she was in HA, the "Kensuke segment" and Shinji's last words to her would make no narrative sense at all. It would all just be a big waste of time. Honestly, I don't think the writers behind Shin would choose to throw all of this away in exchange for five seconds of screen time (which is what Asuka gets in the "train scene"). It would be an anomaly in storytelling design.
"Oh, we are going to place a segment of Kensuke taking care of Asuka (by being close to her and saying that she is good enough the way she is) right before Shinji's farewell to her. Then, we will make Shinji's last words for her to revolve around Kensuke himself. But then, after her character arc is already finished, let's revert her back to a point in which she had no one and was always isolating herself, just for the sake of five seconds of her on the screen (in which she is barely noticeable). That would make complete sense, right?"
Sorry, but I don't buy it. I'm not saying that I'm completely right, or anything. But that's just out of the question for me right now. Anyway, as you suggested, we need to watch the movie to understand the whole picture.

And yes, loners are gonna be lonely, but that doesn't mean they are happy.

I know. However, that doesn't mean that they are unhappy either. That's what I was talking about.

She seems to have grown apart from her former humanity due to her clone and hybrid angel status. She doesn't care about what people see her as because she doesn't seem to care about or identify with people anymore.

There is a scene in this movie in which Asuka is trying to deny her own humanity by stating that her body does not change. However, Mari points out that her hair is always growing and she can't run away from it. Asuka can't ignore the fact that she's still human after all and I believe that's her end game. After the segments with Kensuke and Shinji, we see her grown up body at the entry plug of Unit 13, I believe. Asuka is now free to live the life that she deserves, while also coming in terms with it (that last bit was obviously just my take on it, but we will see).

[Xenoblade]

Swap Mari and Asuka and the final scene makes sense: it's a new world and Mari, who has zero connections to these characters other than the Rebuilds, is just kind of off to the side. And Anno sends off the main five for a happily ever after, thanks for being the reason I'm considered in the upper echelon of otakus.

Instead he seemingly holds a grudge against Asuka and gives her nothing. Asuka is too good a character to just be left with nothing, imo. Shikinami or not, this is the culmination of over two decades of one of the most iconic characters in anime and she's shafted.

She gets very little agency at the end and is simply ejected from instrumentality and then the train station, like a scorned ex to stay away from. Some stuff may be implied, but with the focus on Shinji and Mari very little is actually shown at the end with regards to her. We can only react based on what we see. I thought that the 1995-1997 material was both Shinji and Asuka's story. Though she never replaces him as the most important character...she's close at times. The Rebuilds focus so much on visual splendour and off-loading Asuka's character traits on to the more peppy, emotionally-idealized and unflappable Mari, that there's something missing.

What about Shikinami's problems? Where's that closure?

I feel like Anno has grown tired of this character and doesn't want to run into her again. This leaves me a weird feeling like Asuka as a kind of "ex-wife" that he broke up with on bad terms and, all that love from yesterday has turned into annoyance today and this is seen in all the Rebuild movies

It's exactly this. That's why she gets such a jolting send-off. Shinji doesn't need to work through his relationships or his problems with Shikinami, so she becomes expendable. Her happiness isn't important to the plot.

Edit: Imo, the uncertainty comes not from whoever she does or does not get paired with, but sitting isolated at the edge of the screen. And yes, loners are gonna be lonely, but that doesn't mean they are happy. From what I can gleam so far, it just seems like she went full circle and is back at where she was in the beginning of Ha. Whether or not you want to see that as a happy ending, given that she's better off than previously, or a sad ending, because all her struggles left her in the same place she already was, is of course up to you.

Indeed, I agree that it's ambiguous, but I think there were deliberate choices here cutting Asuka loose for Mari, and behind Asuka's final scenes in the film. We don't even get an establishing shot of her at the train station. It may be therapeutic for Anno, but the audience grew to like the slightly less-idealized Asuka over the course of 26 years, not Mari. Give us a bit more. If Asuka is alone...it is okay to show us why.

There's a certain amount of reading between the lines that can be asked of the audience...but with her inability to exist without Shinji's validation, the clock strikes midnight and she just...disappears. Shinji moves on, but her storyline is left more unresolved than any other major character.

After the segments with Kensuke and Shinji, we see her grown up body at the entry plug of Unit 13, I believe.

I don't think so, she's back to "fitting" in the Wille jacket in that scene.

[Jäeger]

Yeah, you should really tone it down, Jaeger. You say you're a mature adult, but you sure don't act like it.

Because the Poochie thing? It's just a joke, like in any other forum

My other arguments are perfectly valid and no confrontional. They aren't against nobody (people is behaving fine), just reasoned criticism towards a director. And if we're gonna be mature adults, one of the first steps is stop treating Anno like an untochable totem. I repeat : he is not Miyazaki.

Remember, my criticism is not about NTE's existence (I criticise its existence, yeah, but it's another debate), but the way it has told the story. Yeah, we haven't see the movie, but we know everything that happens and crappy writting choices can't be hidden behind dazzling visuals. It's legitimate to create a new story with a new outcome, but let's be serious : It can even stand as an stand alone work. It reminds me "Macross Do You Remember Love?". Try to understand the movie or give sense to character choices without the series context. Good luck.

Not much time ago I said that Kaworu's death in Q felt ridiculous. Somebody, in a good way, told me to wait until de final movie release. Well, it seems it's still pretty ridiculous.

SPOILER: Show

Couldn't agree more with this point. She's probably the most popular character of the entire franchise - not that it means she necessarily deserves a happy ending, but in the Rebuild while others seem to get their necessary closure, her ending here just feels unfinished and sad. Kind of a weird situation.

I agree with this. This whole Asuka business seems strange, an ending that is not a real ending for her, nor were the supporting characters as badly treated as Asuka.

I feel like Anno has grown tired of this character and doesn't want to run into her again. This leaves me a weird feeling like Asuka as a kind of "ex-wife" that he broke up with on bad terms and, all that love from yesterday has turned into annoyance today and this is seen in all the Rebuild movies.

It's as if Asuka is a part of his past that he no longer likes, doesn't want to see, feels a bit ashamed and wants to eliminate or brings back bad memories and no longer wants to be part of it. I think that if it weren't for Asuka's popularity, Anno wouldn't even have bothered to include her and, deep down, he has looked for a way to erase her importance from Shinji's life. Of course, in order not to disappoint the audience, he always maintained the fanservice with her regarding the fights and her physical charms.

In the Rebuild movies, Sohryu is annulled and Shikinami is born, who is possibly a clone (?) of the original Asuka (a clone not very similar, since Shikinami has a smaller bust and no longer has that attractive, energetic and determined character like Sohryu, now she's a very muted and elusive one, always hidden under a video game, so different to this girl who always wanted to be the center of attention. Also here, the monopoly of the big bust now belongs to Mari XD) and that leaves us a huge question ... Where is the real Sohryu? Is she died? Is she the woman from the beach? we don't know it.

Since the movie 2.0, Asuka had little presence and little interaction with Shinji, little closeness of him to her and, although Anno made Shikinami sacrifice himself for Shinji, I don't remember if Shinji found out about it or not in the end, and if so, I think he doesn't give the importance of the case (he doesn't save or support her once again).

In the third film Asuka only serves as a battle element and her anger with Shinji is emphasized and in the fourth film, more fights, fanservice and a few minutes to close the cycle with Shinji ... Asuka, for all cases, has only been used as a fighting weapon and his lifelong character development went to waste ... and although he says every moment that he has grown and matured, his actions say otherwise (he takes out his frustration at Shinji as the same girl from Asuka 14 years but even more childish, she hardly confesses her feelings but when she knows that the inevitable is coming and not before, in 14 years she is still struggling with her past as a child and it seems that she has barely progressed while other characters have advanced in some way, etc.)

It's been 26 years of EVA and Asuka has only received a pat on the head from Kensuke

I totally agree, since 2.0 her presence feels compulsory for Anno, like she was an obstacle for his shoehorned character. Their mutual declaration (yeah, she is the one in the beach, not mixing continuities please, the background is just a visual callback) feels ridiculous after her secondary role in that movie, which never shown us Shinji's feelings. Not even an inch, not even a talk between Shinji and his two friends admiting he likes her. So after thar revelation, the eva 03 incident feels absurd (If he liked her, he would be really really angry). And all that "I grew up, I moved on" (a lie, in many senses : she still behaves like a teenager and hasn´t moved on. It was obious in 3.0) and "the timeskip makes it impossible", while pairing him with a character his mothers age whom he only shared 1m of screentime.....

She gets very little agency at the end and is simply ejected from instrumentality and then the train station, like a scorned ex to stay away from. Some stuff may be implied, but with the focus on Shinji and Mari very little is actually shown at the end with regards to her. We can only react based on what we see. I thought that the 1995-1997 material was both Shinji and Asuka's story. Though she never replaces him as the most important character...she's close at times. The Rebuilds focus so much on visual splendour and off-loading Asuka's character traits on to the more peppy, emotionally-idealized and unflappable Mari, that there's something missing.



What about Shikinami's problems? Where's that closure?

And that's why I say that we have exchanged a complex character for....well, Poochie. A poochie with no character development at all. It's a loss, no matter how we look at it. A in a very poorly artistic way. As I've said before, is not anger what I feel : It's sadness, a melancholic one, after witnessings Anno choose the inmature otaku fantasy route with a poorly written shoehorned character.

We don't know who was Shikinami's template, but she is a different character from NGE'S Soryu. In NGE doesn´t exist and if Asuka is 14 years old in 2.0 (she seems to have grown like a normal child) her source of dna was older, not the same age as Shinji and cia.

Well, let me put it into context:. Even if Asuka still is Anno's favourite character, Mari from the beginning was pushed to effectively replace her: https://www.gwern.net/docs/eva/2010-crc

The question is why? Why did Anno create a character just to push aside the almost coprotagonist of NGE and don't even dare to give her screentime and development? Just for the sake of her being at the end by Shinji's side? Her existence felt ridiculous and shoehorned in the previous three films (this is not a 2021 debate), but now has turned up to 11. And that's something that even the most fanatical Anno's fans cannot defend.

The Evangelion fanbase has a much broader appeal and bigger fanbase than it once did. Largely due to NTE. Like, literal elementary school kids in Japan watch Eva. They grew up on Rebuild. So you're Anno, and now you have these new fans who started with Rebuild, the new fans that started with Netflix Eva, the old fans, Evageeks, the AsuShin fans, the KawoShin fans, ShinjixRei fans, the socially mature fans, the maladjusted fans, Western Fans, Japanese Fans, ect.... And you have to compile a film to satisfy all these wants needs and requirements while your movie has been in development hell for almost a decade in addition to time and monetary restraints.

Sorry but no time and monetary restraints here : when NTE wass announced, EVA was one of the most profitable anime franchises ever. Even bigger after the success of 2.0. 8 years (I'm not gonna take into account the last one) don't seem like a time restrain. And we are talking not a about an improvised tetralogy, but a planned one.

And be sure, NTE has been an economic success. There is no debate here. But in 20 years it won't be remembered the way It's praised NGE, because the original anime was a revolutionary work and a changer for the industry. NTE is...well, "keep alive the franchise". We're talking about 2021, an era where cultural works are used and disposed not so much time after their successs. ACAT or Komm Susser Todd are anime classics....in two years "One Last Kiss" will be forgotten. Take it as an example.

[Zusuchan]

I am seeing what in my mind is criticizing NTE because it is...not the same as NGE. Despite the fact that dozens of people have parroted that fact out for dozens of years now, it still seems that being different from NGE is somehow an immediate step into being objectively bad.

Most of us here haven't seen the film, but yet several people are criticizing it based on every part of dialogue and trying to argue Anno is a bad director because of narrative decisions that are a part of abstract meta stuff...which would also indicate it'd probably be better to actually watch the film in question to have a better understanding of what is going on?

Like, imagine Shin was, in fact, EoE. Imagine we'd get every last line of dialogue, a couple of camrips showing some portions of the film that wouldn't amount to more than 10 minutes. We are in pretty much the same situation here. And me saying that will probably be met with some cries of "But EoE is a great work and what we know of Shin tells us all we need to know!" But, imagine having no idea of what Instrumentality in EoE is. Imagine that all you know is that Asuka gets torn to shreds by a bunch of ugly white bird Evas, that Rei goes into Lilith and becomes a big giant white creature and that people suddenly turn into orange juice. Would this be an accurate enough description of the process of Third Impact that would allow us to adequately analyze what that is? No, it wouldn't.

My point is that while it's perfectly fine to not like NTE, I would like people to actually have some sort of understandable arguments about it, instead of basing their opinions off of dialogue translations, a general plot outline and a few minutes of camrips; instead of criticizing a work due to it being different than another work.

I'm not telling you to do that, since I think that'd be too much to ask, but I just find so much of the anti-Shin arguments presented in this thread and on EGF in general quite frankly funny.

Jäeger: Blockio and BusterMachine4 asked you to tone it down because you're acting rather aggressively sure about the badness of a film you have not seen. And I don't think saying "plot decisions will always remain bad" necessarily works. There's a lot to be gleaned from not only how they're played out in the narrative of the film, but from the visuals. In cinema, the visuals aren't just there to dazzle or enhance, at their best, they're an integral part of the story being told. And Anno is a great enough director who has consistently made the visuals rather important in terms of adequately understanding events to, in my view, make waiting for the visuals and the actual story (instead of plot beats) necessary if one wishes to form adequate criticisms of his movies.

[Jäeger]

I get your point, and I believe we must see the full movie to get a true judgment but :

1) We`re living in 2021, not in 1997. We have even talked with people that has seen the movie, we have inmediate reviews, we have the full dialogue. And still, the Mari thing is not a 2021 debate. She has been a subject of controversy since the beginning. People who have watched the film say that everything about her feels from out of nowhere. As I've told before is not about the choices (which are legitimate), but the way. Asuka's mistreatment is not a 2021 debate, either. Nobody is judging the film's quality as a movie, that waits for the domestical release. But....Shin IS NOT AN INDEPENDENT FILM, never forget that. If it has the advantage of just being a conclusion, so we can judge its coherency or incoherency with previous iterations.

2) David Lynch is a director famous for his powerful visuals, his films are based on them. Sometimes it works , others (Inland Empire, Dune) doesn't. And the criticism is accepted as natural. So please maybe it's time to accept that Anno can fail. And I'm giving too much credit comparing him with Lynch : they don't play the same league. This is not the first time it happens when the "maybe Anno is not perfect" issue emerges. And the answer is always the same, from the same. And is tiresome. Coppola brought us Godfather I&II and everybody accept that, well, Part 3 (being a good film) is not as good and tainted too many things of the story. And we're talking about Francis Ford Coppola, a legend.

I do agree with you that we should wait til watching the film, but is normal to have this stream of informations and controversy the first week. it will calm down sooner or later. But, If I recall, this post is called "The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole". Most of us haven's seen the movie, so I see a contradiction in keeping it open and asking for self-censorship our opinions. If we can't opine about shin because we haven't seen the movie, what's the point? Just talking about previous NTE? There is a post about that in the NTE main board.

[Konja7]

Not much time ago I said that Kaworu's death in Q felt ridiculous. Somebody, in a good way, told me to wait until de final movie release. Well, it seems it's still pretty ridiculous.

Why do you think his death in Q is ridiculous?

In 3.0+1.0, it is mentioned that a sacrifice is necessary to stop an Impact. So, the Fourth Impact wouldn't stop without his death.

[Jäeger]

Not much time ago I said that Kaworu's death in Q felt ridiculous. Somebody, in a good way, told me to wait until de final movie release. Well, it seems it's still pretty ridiculous.

Why do you think his death in Q is ridiculous?

In 3.0+1.0, it is mentioned that a sacrifice is necessary to stop an Impact. So, the Fourth Impact wouldn't stop without his death.

Not his death, that was gonna happen anyway. It was the moment of "no, Shinji-kun, don't do it"...while not doing anything and keeping his face hidden behind his hands. And I'm not the only one who pointed the fact. But maybe it's me being too cynical.

The fourth impact wasn't stopped by his death. It needed something more.

[Konja7]

Yeah. I also wondered why Kaworu seems to be so affected when he see the two Spear of Longinus. He seems to be suffering at that moment.

The hands over the face is a common visual in anime when a character is pretty stressed out or emotionally overwhelmed.

The fourth impact wasn't stopped by his death. It needed something more.

I know Mari still need to release Shinji (although I always wondered if Shinji could auto eject himself).

However, his death (sacrifice) still seems to be a requirement to stop the Fourth Impact. In 3.0+1.0, it is said that a sacrifice is necessary to stop an Impact.

The enviroment changed and Eva 13 started to fall after his death. So, his death seems to be "Step 1" to stop the Fourth Impact.

[Zusuchan]

Jäeger: The reason why this thread was created because another user made a good point that this sort of discussions were starting to clutter the "Shin Eva leak general" thread, so a new thread created specifically for discussing Shin's quality was a good idea in that regard. And it's not like I can stop anyone from discussing it, unless I were to go full-on anime forum dictator, so instead of trying and most likely failing to put a cap on such discussions, giving those discussions a predesigned place would be a better idea. And I'm not even against these arguments in general and I think there's something interesting in speculating about a film one has not seen, but the amount of arguments that say Shin is bad with a rather large amount of certainty based on rather illogical statements (like the still prevalent insistence by some that NTE needs to be like NGE or that Shin is bad because Shikinami didn't get as much complexity as Soryu and so on), is not something I like. That does not mean I'm going to necessarily do anything against them more than engage in conversation myself, because what else can I do, really?

It's also not like I'm not wondering about certain story decisions, such as the ending and Mari's role, but I personally have enough faith in Anno to wait for the film before immediately denouncing those decisions-and the fact the few forum members here who have seen the film have by and large been rather supportive of it gives me hope. (And, being honest, criticizing Mari's role in the ending comes off as criticizing Shin, so I don't believe the "nobody's judging the film's quality as a movie" shtick, since the ending of the movie is also the ending of this particular movie, not just NTE. Not that I think it's wrong to criticize per se, I just wanted to point that out. You can still go ahead and voice your dislike for it all you want.)

Neither am I saying that Anno is perfect or incapable of making mistakes-my point re: the visuals is that he's good enough of a director to use the importance of the visual language when making a visual work and thus far he has succeeded in the majority of his works. Any complete and dense case for Kaworu's motivations being impure in Q would have to include all these interesting parts of the visual language clearly in support of the idea. Anno's Eva in general has consistently used the visuals to create an unique atmosphere and has even used it to hint toward important plot points that it never explicitly spells out otherwise. Eva has always been a visual work and in my opinion, one can't judge Shin based entirely on its plot beats without having seen the film itself, because the difference just might be that great-especially since the film seems to go into the realms of abstract, surreal and meta.

Even last week, some wondered about Rei Q's character arc and thought maybe it was unearned-then, os189, who had seen the film, revealed there was actually around 10-20 minutes in the film dedicated to her arc that made it matter a lot. Without the visuals, one could assume she'd barely gotten any importance in the narrative at all.

Anno has obviously made mistakes, as has any artist-the Action Arc goes on a bit too long for me, there are various animation inconsistencies in EoE and I think that film is a bit too harsh, I don't really care for Gunbuster (not even the final episode) etc. But I still think he's a wonderful artist and I have enough faith to wait for a film of his before actively criticizing it.

[Jäeger]

It's also not like I'm not wondering about certain story decisions, such as the ending and Mari's role, but I personally have enough faith in Anno to wait for the film before immediately denouncing those decisions-and the fact the few forum members here who have seen the film have by and large been rather supportive of it gives me hope. (And, being honest, criticizing Mari's role in the ending comes off as criticizing Shin, so I don't believe the "nobody's judging the film's quality as a movie" shtick, since the ending of the movie is also the ending of this particular movie, not just NTE. Not that I think it's wrong to criticize per se, I just wanted to point that out. You can still go ahead and voice your dislike for it all you want.)

Mari is not an issue for this movie, but for the whole tetralogy. Since 1.0. That's my point. Anno wanted to go full meta with her? Ok, is his choice. But that doesn't mean he has done it RIGHT. It's been a controversy from the beginning.

And why criticizing Mari's role in the ending comes off as criticizing Shin? That's the other point. The film can work like a clock but still his final role feel totally out place after her zero development in FOUR MOVIES. And zero interaction with the main character in 4 movies. What? 2 minutes of shared screentime out of a total of 470? We can discuss a lot of things, but I believe that even after watching the movie this is not gonna be out of them. I hope I'm wrong.

Someway, she conjures me up Bobba Fett. A secondary character, with almost no screentime in the original trilogy, with a pretty stupid death....but he turned to be quite popular among the fans and the creators chose to give him a bigger role in the SW universe...after. Well, Mari is the opossite case : Anno wanted her to have crucial role, no matter what happens on the script. Since 1.0.

[Zusuchan]

If Mari's role in NTE is bad, unearned, without a working thematic relevancy or meaning, then it's a problem of NTE, but also, by necessity, of Shin, since Mari is a part of Shin and her role there is the most "blasphemous" out of all her roles in the other three films. If you believe Mari getting together with Shinji is a bad plot point, then it's obviously a bad plot point of Shin, seeing as it's something that happens specifically in that film.

It's impossible to say "Mari's character development in NTE is nonexistent" and therefore not say "Mari's character development in Shin is nonexistent".

[Thesufferingpumpkin]

“Too bad” - hideaki Anno

[Jäeger]

If Mari's role in NTE is bad, unearned, without a working thematic relevancy or meaning, then it's a problem of NTE, but also, by necessity, of Shin, since Mari is a part of Shin and her role there is the most "blasphemous" out of all her roles in the other three films. If you believe Mari getting together with Shinji is a bad plot point, then it's obviously a bad plot point of Shin, seeing as it's something that happens specifically in that film.

It's impossible to say "Mari's character development in NTE is nonexistent" and therefore not say "Mari's character development in Shin is nonexistent".

Mari has been a bad plot point since 1.0

That's my point.

She is a Poochie. Not surprise she likes talking about puppy boy

[Mr. Tines]

It doesn't help that, after the "Anno's just getting Eva out of his system"-level summary, the "view from 30,000ft" take on NTE is that it really was one of those 5th Child Mary Sue fics everyone back-buttoned out of during their early infatuation with the series

I have her as an alternate love interest for Shinji  SPOILER: Show

That fact alone is going to -- already has, to be truthful -- upset those whose take on the eternal verities of Evangelion has been unceremoniously dismissed.

[cremino]

NTE is very Shinji-centric reflecting Anno's priorities and this is both a strong point and a weakness in that I always have the sensation the other characterd are not fully developed or fleshed out. I think a tv series might have worked better than a movie series

[RLLRRR]

“Too bad” - hideaki Anno

You may be closer than we think on this.

I wonder if Anno used the Rebuilds and ShiNTEji as a reflection of himself, ignoring that other people have liked and identified with Shinji as his own character. It's kind of a Death of the Author situation: even if Anno meant for all of this to be a giant metaphor for post-EoE Anno (I'm very glad he's in a better place, no one deserves to be unhappy, ever), but Evangelion and Shinji are bigger than that.

It's like JK Rowling trying to do something new with Harry Potter that's reflective of her current life and views and experiences: Scar-boy's become bigger than her, and people are going to be upset that she's messed with it.

Asuka is far too important of a character to be handwaved away with an "Oh, she's there, too. See!", even if Anno doesn't believe so anymore. If Asuka truly represents Anno's thoughts and feelings of NGE (which is my current interpretation), seeing him just say, "I loved you. Not anymore. I'm off with Mari. See ya, wouldn't want to be ya." sucks because we've enjoyed all of Evangelion for so long.

[TheFriskyIan]

NTE is very Shinji-centric reflecting Anno's priorities and this is both a strong point and a weakness in that I always have the sensation the other characterd are not fully developed or fleshed out. I think a tv series might have worked better than a movie series

That really depends on what Anno was going for though. in 1995, Ghost In The Shell was also a film adaptation of a more fleshed source material and there's plenty of characters in the movie that serve a basic function, aren't fleshed out, and never seen again; and yet that film gets praised indefinitely (and rightfully so). Those characters had more development and were more fleshed out in the manga, but they had to be relegated to a side role with practically no development because not just runtime but also because it wasn't relevant to the story that the GITS movie was trying to tell. Anno has always stated that NTE is Shinji's story, as a result, other characters are naturally not going to be as complex as him.

[NamvM74]

Like, imagine Shin was, in fact, EoE. Imagine we'd get every last line of dialogue, a couple of camrips showing some portions of the film that wouldn't amount to more than 10 minutes. We are in pretty much the same situation here. And me saying that will probably be met with some cries of "But EoE is a great work and what we know of Shin tells us all we need to know!" But, imagine having no idea of what Instrumentality in EoE is. Imagine that all you know is that Asuka gets torn to shreds by a bunch of ugly white bird Evas, that Rei goes into Lilith and becomes a big giant white creature and that people suddenly turn into orange juice. Would this be an accurate enough description of the process of Third Impact that would allow us to adequately analyze what that is? No, it wouldn't.

If I was getting leaks like this of EoE back in 1997 IDK exactly what I would think. But seeing these images would stun and disturb me. I would know that I had to see the film.




The Final image of EoE is haunting and a masterpiece of composition and art direction.

The final image of 3.0+1.0 is literally product placement and the animated portion of the ending looks like your basic slice of life anime just with adults. Nothing about that is dragging me in. Its not provocative in any way.