Shinji - not actually Yui Ayanami's son this time? [No Shipping discussions please!]

[Blockio]

Quite fascinating observations, Ursus! It'd definitely be a nice change of pace, and the kind of curveball that I expect Anno to throw at us

[GhostlyOcam]

The very fact that they have several characters parse & describe it that way is one of the best examples of how that was an intended perception or at least not a far fetched one.

Again, I don't see the squick. She didn't raise him, wasn't raised together with him and is a very different person from Yui, no matter what her makers wanted to create. They wanted a copy or a mindless tool, but instead there is a mistreated neglected young lady.

@Kendrix put it out perfectly and pretty much said everything I wanted to say LOL, English is not my mother language not it's a secondary so it's hard to put these thoughts into coherent paragraphs. It's funny that after Misato said that Rei might be in love with Shinji, Ritsuko responded with "Nah, no way. That's impossible", like she has made up her mind that Rei can't be in love.

I'm not sure if Ritsuko in this continuity had the same relationship (or problem) with Rei like her NGE counterpart, but being assigned to personally handle Rei's personal medical check-ups and stuff, she still knows well that Rei isn't exactly a normal human and thus incapable of having deeper feelings or emotions, yet she couldn't have been more wrong this time. While the true nature of "love" Rei had for Shinji Rebuild is still up for debate whether it's romantic or platonic/siblinglike(I believe it's the former, for reasons Kendrix said above), said "love" was strong enough to make Rei act completely out of character and freaked out everyone in the process.

[Settie]

The very fact that they have several characters parse & describe it that way is one of the best examples of how that was an intended perception or at least not a far fetched one.

It could also be a red herring, it's not as black and white.

You could argue that they're just friends, but "motherly" is absolute bs that negates her entire character & her struggles as an individual.
Rei is a 14 year old with zero life skills she couldn't even parent a cactus.

Here's the thing though, she never really had individuality from the get go, everything she does for Shinji is something that was needed for Gendos plan to work. How'd you figure that would come to fruition? Merely by chance, i highly doubt it. From Shinjis side you'd have a sense of familial similarity (as he mentions it pre-8th angel fight) to drive his curiosity in this person that he he knows nothing about. That then leaves Rei, how to get a severely emotionally stunted individual to not only open up, but willingly sacrifice for someone else? I personally think this is where Yuis "data" comes in, a way to get Rei to more easily get attached to Shinji.

The one thing we know Yui left to Gendo in regards to Shinji was the message to take care of him. While a twist could be that it was from a cold pragmatic perspective, take care of Shinji as he's needed for the plan to function, i think it was a mothers desire to protect her son. After all we don't actually know what Yuis plan was for becoming unit-1s control system.

Lastly from a personal perspective, incest ships are trash ships and bottom of the barrel fetishized relationships. It's the reason i find Reishin awful and i'd lose a lot of respect for Anno if he tried to make an incest ship work.

[UrsusArctos]

Here's the thing though, she never really had individuality from the get go, everything she does for Shinji is something that was needed for Gendos plan to work... That then leaves Rei, how to get a severely emotionally stunted individual to not only open up, but willingly sacrifice for someone else?

I believe the answer to the question in the second sentence I quoted invalidates the first statement. Both the Rei clones we've seen, Rei-02 ("Poka Rei") and Rei Q, have demonstrated tendencies to act as individuals. Poka Rei wanted to bring Gendo, Shinji and a few others together as a family of her own volition, and her desire to stop Shinji from piloting was again, of her own volition. She brought Shinji's SDAT out of the garbage out of her own volition. Rei Q reacts to Mari's question "What would you do?" by acting on her own and ejecting. She's being manipulated thoroughly by Gendo, yes, but that doesn't prevent her from having individuality across her different bodies or an ability to make her own decisions.

Lastly from a personal perspective, incest ships are trash ships and bottom of the barrel fetishized relationships. It's the reason i find Reishin awful and i'd lose a lot of respect for Anno if he tried to make an incest ship work.

Entirely agreed. I've put in a request to not talk about shipping any longer because I detest it.

[Kendrix]

Note that Shinji also did "exactly what was needed for Gendo's plan" ...and possibly so did everyone else. ("Captain Katsuragi's actions are within parameters")
In Q they all act "within parameters" though they all know he's evil and explicitly want to defy him.

At this point we don't really know how vague or exact the plan & its needs were.
It might just have been a basic outline like "Shinji needs to be really mad so he loses control of the EVA somehow, lets make him care about someone and then kill her. " Same principle as a royal whipping boy principle basically.

This is certainly very different from the original series where Gendo never meant to use Shinji before Rei's untimely accident (making the situation in Rebuild massively viler on the part of Shinji's parents - though its hard to pass final judgement before whatever reveals might come out in "thrice upon a time")


Also I'd like to point out that there's a difference between a random crackship/fetish (which rarely has anything to do with real life anyways, because fetishes are the result of illogical subconscious associations, there's been documented cases of, say, holocaust survivors fantasizing about dudes in nazi uniform(to name the craziest case i can recall right now), maybe because you make the scary thing controllable in the context of fantasy) vs. story that actually features it as a plot element for reasons of tragedy or whatever, where discussing that is just part of the literary analysis not "shipping". (Regardless of wether they should have, we're definitely to understand that the Lannisters boinked - in this case because Cersei is a super duper narcicisst & basically wants to do her mirror image) For that matter, very few people ship Gendo and Ritsuko but to discuss their characters one needs to mention that they boinked.

[GhostlyOcam]

I think it's also interesting to note that while Rei's motivation to launch the suicide attack against 10th Angel in Rebuild was explicitly to "not let Shinji pilot the Eva ever again", Yui/Eva-01 outright rejected the dummy plug from Gendo and only wants Shinji to get inside he- I mean it to trigger the awakening, since I highly doubt that a Dummy-manned Eva-01 could defeat the angel and prevented NTI from happening.

Basically, while the Ayanamis are on the exact opposite ends of the goal, the Ikaris mirrored each other in their obsessions to bring back the Ayanami of their respective lives to the point of doing destructive things. Whatever these mean in the end, the Ikari-Ayanami relationships in Rebuild are seriously scary.

EDIT:

Also I'd like to point out that there's a difference between a random crackship/fetish vs. story that actually features it as a plot element for reasons of tragedy or whatever, where discussing that is just part of the literary analysis not "shipping".

Agree, I wasn't intending to initiate a ship war or something although it's indeed very prone to tread into shipping territory. As I said, I don't ship anyone in Eva because I find the characters' relationships are too complex to simply want to see them smooch and boink, but it's hard to discuss about Shinji and Rei in Rebuild without bringing up the nature of their relationship with each other as it plays a huge part in the story.

[Kendrix]

Not to start that argument again, but Shinji had no idea that could happen, & judging by his reaction when he sees the result, he neither wanted this nor had any idea it was going on.

The "I don't care about the world" line was all about shedding his false pretense of noble motivation (which was there from the beginning - it's just that instead of protecting some friend, it was to impress Gendo, which is arguably a worse one.) & accepting that he's ultimately driven by personal ones (directly and obviously echoing the earlier conversation with Misato - hence why she cheered him on at the time) - He's not doing it FOR the world but he had no idea that destroying it was something that could actually happen.

How many times have you thought, "I wish that fucker would just drop dead" or "I hate everything right now" & usually that's just a consequence free thought unless you live in 1984
If you take a knife & you stab them you're culpable, but what if, say, you gesture around with a staff and that's the precise moment you gain magical fireball shooting powers?

Indeed one can wonder what alternatives there were because if Shinji had not reactivated the EVA somehow, Zeruel would have won. In this case the cure (the EVA) was almost as bad as the poison (Zeruel) but "nearly everyone dead" is still better than "absolutely everyone dead".
We don't even know if things going like in the TV show was even an option.

Perhaps the only way Shinji could have won this would have been to NOT have his 10 min retirement at all and attack Zeruel from a more opportune position perhaps as a team attack with Rei and Mari.

It was an impulsive action while mortally wounded (judging by the blood fountain when Zeruel spears him)
Gendo has been pursuing an ice cold ruthless plan for 25 years and only gotten colder & ruthlesser over time; No one's forced or manipulated him into anything, and he knows all there is to know. You absolutely cannot compare this.

[GhostlyOcam]

Now it's even more interesting that Shin Eva is hyping up to put a mentally stable-looking Shinji and Gendo in a direct confrontation (if the trailer editing wasn't a mislead), as opposed to just never seen each other at all for the remainder of the climax (EoE) or have Gendo going full motive reveal speach mode and then attempting to manipulate a mentally fragile Shinji (EoManga). With how much time and energy Shinji spent as an Eva pilot in trying to impress his father and being seen as a real son, imagine all the anger and disgust when he finally understands what his father did and trying to do now, which again makes you question how genuine Gendo's praise for Shinji was in 2.0.

[Kendrix]

It's certainly hard to picture anything resembling reconciliation after the timeskip AND the finale of Q.

But I'm thinking the classic fight would be too simple, too cliched.

The shot with the sparking visor, to me, looks like the glasses coming off, the motive rant coming out. We have so far not really gotten any real insight into what Gendo is thinking, but the original series didn't give us anything like that before the very end either.
I think his motive rant should surprise us, & that he will not be a simple villain.

---

Also that paragraph was less directed at you or accusing & more at the previous post treating something that is arguably suggested/depicted in universe at least as an open question mark and hence deserves analysis(it's like... right in the proposal... characters in the show suggest it... have you seen the death sequence in ep 23?) the same as a complete fetish-driven crack ship a la Ron x Hermione, Zutara or Wincest et al.
We can talk forever about what it means if it's a false lead (both in the sense of the relationship first seeming like it will be one thing & then being another or in the sense that it's the wrong option thematically; or, as I would say, simply a tragedy)
There's just a discrepancy in the level of "Be serious" that ensures when anyone brings up LAS.
Agenda & puritanism just kills discussion especially in something that's so explicitly up to interpretation as this one show.
Obviously the point was not "hehehe love triangle"... but that's precisely it, 'cause you have these characters representing a really complex contrast, like opposing forces on the psyche and it's not so simple that one is all good & the other all bad, either.

And that's not just true for this particular example, calcyfing around a certain "default interpretation" (like the index finger wagging, "nerds are bad" interpretation that imho isn't at all whats suggested in interviews or the show, "concurrency is the only option" (well that has died down somewhat since Rebuild gave ppl new things to have arguments around) or how "Mari must be read through a meta lens" seems to be the only accepted option) is just not good for fresh discussion especially if it leads to any novel consideration by new board members being shut down
I remind everyone that at one point the "Naoko in EVA 00s soul" was fairly mainstream though I cant tell where ppl ever got it from

tl;dr: "Do not discuss romance under any circumstances, not even in the context of it being a storytelling tool in the service of larger points/themes" is just as unproductive as "we will now derail this thread into a childish"which girl is better war" discussion"

[Line]

I can't add nothing at the table for thinking/argument food, but just to say, Kendrix slipped the words of my mouth:

Personality wise, Rei Ayanami is not Yui Ikari/Ayanami/whatever family name this woman might have.

Yui is a confident woman, always in confidence of her moves. So much, that's at the end of the day, even what could appear as a accident, it end up beneficiated her, in one way or another. She a manipulator/opportunist that's always end up get the best out of a situation for whatever god complexe plan she planning on herself/Shinji/humanity.

Rei Ayanami is a misguided personne, who didn't even ask to be born/created, and who is pulled in this mess against her will, and once she into the machination, she don't even know why! And even if subconsciously would she know, how hard it would be for her to get out of this mess without having to die/sacrifice individuality like she always did despite herself?

[Kendrix]

I'm not sure if "confident" is the precise word I'd use.

Yui is fairly enigmatic and even more so in Rebuild where some yet uncertain amount of backstory stuff may have been changed, there can be a tendency to project onto her. She had three short scenes.

But what she is is smooth & charming, having all these dudes getting all obsessed with her, playing this massive organization, always very in-control, her default expression seems to be this wise/knowing smile... and of course as EVA 01 she wields immense, rippling power.

Very far from "weird schoolgirl with no friends" certainly.

That quote about being less interested in the in & outs of Einsteins brain than other potential genuises working in crappy sweatshops comes to mind.

If Rei is a creature who became human, Yui is the negative of that - a human who cast off humanity & became a deity/ creature... and Gendo kind of tries the same with his Adam embryo etc.

As far as their rebuild incarnations go though I feel like there is some big reveal still waiting for us that we absolutely need before we can really discuss their morals.
At least back in 2.0, it doesn't seem like Gendo anticipated the timeskip. ("Just a little longer")


Personally I feel like "Yui's not really related to Shinji" is just "Fuyutsuki is the father" revamped. As a kid I too liked to fantasize about being the kid of my mom's previous boyfriend or adopted or whatever to at least have some semi logical reason for my experiences, but alas the shape of my nose clearly says otherwise and no one's gonna show up to take me back to fairyland. "Don't worry you're not actually related to that morally ambiguous person" isn't something this show is going to do.
Maybe something like this would have popped up earlier if EoTv was less underappreciated ("Why must I do all these horrible things, MOTHER?" * visual of Shinji being squeezed by EVA 01 like Kaworu was *)

Like even if they part on good terms, I'd love to see Shinji get to confront her a bit more. He still remembers her as this angelic memory from his 3 year old baby PoV and that's how she more or less gets frozen in his mind, or became a projection space for, "at least she probably loved me" & he viewed her as the poor innocent test subject killed by Gendo's evil experiment. That's certainly not what happened.

In reality, the angelic sweet mom he remembers and the EVA 01 that terrifies him to death are one and the same.

[Line]

It's true that's Yui is enigmatic. Even within the eva adults cast, she is THE ONE to which you can't pinpoint exactly what kind of personne she is, or what is her (psychologicals) struggle. Who she is deep inside. She merely like a figurine or a image to which you can give a wilds of any interpretations you want on this matter;

To me, she always appear as someone whose events falls on her like if it was as simple as flowing water, like if all of what is her quotidien is as natural, even pleasant to her, as breathing. Like she following her script as like a fish who firm instinct is "Swim. Always swimming."


Contrary to the sense of uneasiness you can feel on any others eva character....

Is Yui Ikari/Ayanami even is a real "personne"?

But yeah indeed the lovecraftian horror that's is Yui in unit-01 and the angelic figure Shinji and Gendo saw her of is the same personne indeed.

Ha ha, I knew the feels of not wanting being relateds to you'r parents too well. My fantasy was to said, since I was (am) too different of my family, it was too said I am a alien

[Zusuchan]

This is a very fascinating idea you have here, Ursus! This is certainly the kind of interesting twist that Anno could pull, heh.

I also realized this could have potential thematic resonance, in the sense that a large part of NTE's message seems to me about getting the better of one's own selfish desires-this has already been stated through the character of Shinji, who chases his own desire in the end of Ha (we can argue that killing Zeruel was the right thing and yes, it was, but it's also undeniable that Shinji's own personal reasons for killing Zeruel weren't that great and altruistic) and does so again in Q. Gendo even refers to Shinji as a childish person with childish desires in Ha if I recall correctly. Since Shin's central individual theme appears to be hope and the trailers seem to put a lot of focus on collective work (similarly to Shin Godzilla, which showed international cooperation and teamwork as the key to defeating Godzilla-and as that film was made between Q and Shin, it shouldn't be too much of a leap to suggest that some of Anno's idea re: NTE may have found their way in there), Shinji is probably going to get over his childish desires and work with others instead while also not letting them be his only reason for life, with the film series ultimately suggesting some sort of fusion between individualism and teamwork as the best way to live. Considering this "middle road" idea can also be seen from the film series exploring the extremes of both individualism (Shinji's childish desires leading to bad things) and teamwork (the FoI's and most likely also everything related to Instrumentality), this could very well be where NTE goes.

What I'm trying to say with this overlong paragraph above is that if Shinji is a clone of Gendo, then he has to fight a version of himself-a version that could very well be full of childish desires and delusions himself, so I think that whether it's done or not, it would have some logical thematic resonance.

Also, Shinji looks a bit Gendo-ish here for me:

SPOILER: Show

[Settie]

I believe the answer to the question in the second sentence I quoted invalidates the first statement. Both the Rei clones we've seen, Rei-02 ("Poka Rei") and Rei Q, have demonstrated tendencies to act as individuals. Poka Rei wanted to bring Gendo, Shinji and a few others together as a family of her own volition, and her desire to stop Shinji from piloting was again, of her own volition. She brought Shinji's SDAT out of the garbage out of her own volition. Rei Q reacts to Mari's question "What would you do?" by acting on her own and ejecting. She's being manipulated thoroughly by Gendo, yes, but that doesn't prevent her from having individuality across her different bodies or an ability to make her own decisions.

Yeah maybe i didn't explain myself properly on that, when i mention Rei II lacking individuality it didn't mean that she doesn't have free will but rather how engineered that free will is. Rei II was an engineered lifeform meant to fulfill a specific purpose, so i question how much of what she does is truly "her" choices or a byproduct of her design. NTE has those little nuggets that bring up interesting questions in regards to this, from Rei being made from Yuis data ( how encompassing that is remains to be known) to nonchalant mentions of brainwashing. So my premise is that Gendo wanted a certain outcome, and i don't think he left everything up to chance.

[Ray]

Shinji in the final movie is going to become more like his father than he’ll care to admit to any of his ex-teammates or even to himself. the shot is likely more meant to be a metaphor for how he is becoming just like his father in how he behaves and acts rather than him literally being a clone of his father.

Shinji could, and I believe will, begin behaving just like his father behaved in the first few movies in response to what he’s been through. Acting nominally polite when around other people and his teammates, but being cold to anyone who tries to reach his heart after what he’s been through. Sakura, Mari, maybe Asuka and Misato.

But a final act twist of making him a clone like that seems unnecessary, at least to me. Anno doesn’t really seem to care about this kind of thing.

It just seems like something Shinji and Rei shippers want to be true so they don’t have the stigma of “Shinji literally screwing his mom” messing up their preferred ship. It would ruin the overall Freudian metaphor of how “Shinji doesn’t want a girlfriend to love and make him better despite the suffering, he wants a mother to do everything for him so he doesn’t have to grow up and suffer more.”

[BusterMachine4]

It just seems like something Shinji and Rei shippers want to be true so they don’t have the stigma of “Shinji literally screwing his mom” messing up their preferred ship. It would ruin the overall Freudian metaphor of how “Shinji doesn’t want a girlfriend to love and make him better despite the suffering, he wants a mother to do everything for him so he doesn’t have to grow up and suffer more.”

Remember what the title said. No shipping discussions please!

But if I can be a major hypocrite and discuss shipping for just a while longer, I agree with you. However, I don't think his relationship to Rei was part of the whole escapism thing. Eva is full of mother symbolism, both good and bad, and Rei never really has any bad connotations.

[Jäeger]

It just seems like something Shinji and Rei shippers want to be true so they don’t have the stigma of “Shinji literally screwing his mom” messing up their preferred ship. It would ruin the overall Freudian metaphor of how “Shinji doesn’t want a girlfriend to love and make him better despite the suffering, he wants a mother to do everything for him so he doesn’t have to grow up and suffer more.”

Remember what the title said. No shipping discussions please!

But if I can be a major hypocrite and discuss shipping for just a while longer, I agree with you. However, I don't think his relationship to Rei was part of the whole escapism thing. Eva is full of mother symbolism, both good and bad, and Rei never really has any bad connotations.

Yeah, but it is true. From the beginning this post sounds like an excuse to legitimate something Anno tells you again and again that is WRONG. But I agree the original series make clear the "motherly essence" topic around Rei, and not as a bad thing : she is a friendly/motherly/sister figure to him. Anno never shows her a "shipping object", otakus were the ones who made the choice, they are the ones choosing her because her submissive personality. And after the revelation Shinji says to himself : "Now all has sense", about the motherly vibes from Rei. There are no second meanings here. And If I recall correctly in 3.0 Shinji was even more shocked after the reveal. Funny that the being Q the clone without Yui's data, she is the one without that motherly traits, essence, vibes....but she is a different character.

Bringing up more clones, like a cheap writer would do, doesn't have a chance. The fuck, it wouldn´t have any sense, it would crush everything the movies have told before, about the relationship between father and son. And Fuyutsuki's talk to Shinji would be pointless, for the character and the viewer. And remember : every memento from Yui was destroyed...because people notice those things. Same rules apply for Gendo.

SO yeah, it reeks of wishful thinking, not even a theory, just because, as Anno states, somepeople are unable to grow and face the truth, even if hurts. But if hurts you what NGE and EOE told you 25 years ago and still are in denial because shipping, you're the problem.

"Muahahaha I never was a bad father from the start because you're just a clone of mine, like other 1000000000 productions have done before" If Gendo wasn´t his father from the begining.....who cares about their relationship?

But a final act twist of making him a clone like that seems unnecessary, at least to me. Anno doesn’t really seem to care about this kind of thing.

Because turning like the father you hate is drama, it adds narrative. Being his clone is, well.....fucking stupid. Of course Gendo wouldn't give a shit about him : he is just a disposable tool. Revealing that cheap twist at the end is not a climax, just shocking for free.

[Kendrix]

Anno never shows her a "shipping object", otakus were the ones who made the choice,

Dude, even the proposal starts out describing Rei as "learned about feelings after falling in love with someone". The idea is brought up multiple times in-universe by various characters, the script describing Shinji as having trouble looking away, the way certain scenes are framed, the death sequence...

The first one to suggest the possibility was, for better or worse, Anno himself.

Regardless of what you think about that plot element or how you interpret it (- as a narrative red herring, a tragic doomed thing, a cautionary tale, a positive tale about communication and the power of small acts of kindness, wether you "ship" it whatever that means cause it could really use some disambiguation) putting this on the same level as a crackship like, uh... Ritsuko/Misato is just disingenuous.

Note that we also have such statements as "Asuka is for masochists & would just insult your performance", "Misato is for immature people" clearly they were each meant to hit certain universal appeal buttons but also reflect some facet of human absurdity; (As parts of his own psyche, of course a self-deprecating author might be surprised that anyone likes any of them) Neither is as simple a symbol as the mainstream "index finger wagging" interpretation makes them out to be (which I have a big problem with for many, many reasons many of which have nothing to do with Rei.. its just not what the show or the interviews bear out)... and they're not just symbols, they're main characters in their own right with their own dynamic stories.
What the authors think the appeal is & what it actually is might not even actually be the same.

Likewise I find it problematic to just blanket assert "what the show is telling us" or why people like her, as if that's obvious, apparent thing you measured that with some sort of scientific instrument.
Let's also acknowledge that the Venn diagram between Rei fans (hardcore or otherwise) and LRS ppl is hardly a circle; Why the audience likes the character & some in-universe relationship of whatever nature aren't the same thing.

You know, Misato gets love interest treatment even if that's unlikely to really go anywhere, it's a symbol, an experience during development, one that must be featured into the interpretation.

While I don't think there's anything to OPs theory if you read their post they're not coming from a place of wanting a certain thing to be true, but of perceiving the plot element and wanting to make sense of it.

Also where'd this whole notion/interpretation of Rei being some "easy option" come from?
If you wanna talk about submissive wish fulfillment, look no further than your typical satellite love interest all over media, and she's very far from that.
She's a weird loner that is content to just ignore your whole existence until you put in a lot of work. Half of their interactions are Shinji putting his foot in his mouth or her telling him the tea in a brutally honest manner.
She's right there with Misato and Asuka in the "sometimes other people have sides you don't understand" montage in instrumentality.

We're told straight up what she "means" - the hope that people can understand each other.
That, despite the adverse circumstances, despite of how hard it is, a connection happens, a bit of friendship and warmth in a cruel unforgiving world - that's the story. Just a little glimmer of light that is just as quickly extinguished... but it was there.

[ArtyumR]

this entire thread is embarrassing.

[BusterMachine4]

Also where'd this whole notion/interpretation of Rei being some "easy option" come from?

It came from Asuka fans. Not to paint with a broad brush, but some of them have this weird complex where they must convince themselves that Asuka is the strong, real life waifu appreciated by real men, while Rei is the weak, 2D waifu appreciated by lifeless otaku. Some of them seemingly can't be a fan of Asuka without putting the other girls down. Not saying Jaeger or any of the Asuka fans here are like this though.

Of course, however, this is a complete misread of the show's message. Rei and Asuka are opposite sides of the same coin: their problems are polar opposite, but they both have the same mix of strengths and flaws. Rei has a strong emotional connection to other people, but she can't express this connection in a way that people will see. Asuka expresses her emotions in a very strong way, but this strength is just a mask to hide her inner loneliness. That's the reason behind Rei and Asuka's parallel color schemes: Rei has blue hair and red eyes, while Asuka has red hair and blue eyes. The hair symbolizes the character's outer personality, while the eyes symbolize the character's inner thoughts.