Why Is Liking 2.22 Bad?
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- LightDragonman
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Why Is Liking 2.22 Bad?
This is something I've been wracking my brain around.
2.22 is one of my favorite films. However, it seems that the general consensus around these here parts is that people loved 2.22 because it was "pandering" to them, and that one reason why 3.33 is such a "masterpiece" is because it portrayed the series the way it's always meant to be.
Forgive me for saying this, but that is really insulting to me. The reason I liked 2.22 wasn't because it was "pandering to my desires". I liked it because I enjoyed watching the characters interact with each other, seeing their relationships form, and while bad stuff happened to them (seriously, it wasn't all happy times in that film; the third act was quite dark), they managed to push through those hard times. I was invested the whole way through. But apparently, I'm one of the "misguided fans", because 3.33's take on it which I disliked because it did many things I disagreed with in terms of the story and failed to capitalize on the relationships and arcs that 2.22 had brought up is apparently better because "it's what the series is truly about".
I'm sorry, but if Evangelion's true form as a story and what Anno intends it to be is what I got in 3.33, a mean-spirited lecture on how acting for yourself can cause problems if you're not careful, and becoming attached to someone like Rei is unhealthy because you just want them to coddle you and protect you from the real world (as opposed to the reason being as simple as being close friends with that person and you can relate to and sympathize with her), then count me out.
2.22 is one of my favorite films. However, it seems that the general consensus around these here parts is that people loved 2.22 because it was "pandering" to them, and that one reason why 3.33 is such a "masterpiece" is because it portrayed the series the way it's always meant to be.
Forgive me for saying this, but that is really insulting to me. The reason I liked 2.22 wasn't because it was "pandering to my desires". I liked it because I enjoyed watching the characters interact with each other, seeing their relationships form, and while bad stuff happened to them (seriously, it wasn't all happy times in that film; the third act was quite dark), they managed to push through those hard times. I was invested the whole way through. But apparently, I'm one of the "misguided fans", because 3.33's take on it which I disliked because it did many things I disagreed with in terms of the story and failed to capitalize on the relationships and arcs that 2.22 had brought up is apparently better because "it's what the series is truly about".
I'm sorry, but if Evangelion's true form as a story and what Anno intends it to be is what I got in 3.33, a mean-spirited lecture on how acting for yourself can cause problems if you're not careful, and becoming attached to someone like Rei is unhealthy because you just want them to coddle you and protect you from the real world (as opposed to the reason being as simple as being close friends with that person and you can relate to and sympathize with her), then count me out.
Proud fanboy of Rei Ayanami. :p
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Re: Why Is Liking 2.22 Bad?
If you want the full answer, go read the threads from the year or so after 2.0 came out.
There was a very vocal anti-2.x contingent here, which ran contrary to the wider reaction to the movie -- many people here did like the film, including the set-up at the end for kicking the feet out from under the GAR!Shinji supporters.
If we exclude the "they changed things so it's RUINED FOREVER" reactions, the underlying reasons expressed felt like a general impression that underneath all the spectacle, the film did not cohere well. Points of contention included gratuitous Mari, poor handling of Shikinami's development, how the minor characters were handled, Vatican Treaty out of nowhere as an inelegant way of forcing the pilot of EVA-03, and, given the short running time of the movie, the amount of time spent on eye-candy scenes at the cost of the above. The Shikinami slutsuit and crotch shots were also singled out as gratuitous.
There was a very vocal anti-2.x contingent here, which ran contrary to the wider reaction to the movie -- many people here did like the film, including the set-up at the end for kicking the feet out from under the GAR!Shinji supporters.
If we exclude the "they changed things so it's RUINED FOREVER" reactions, the underlying reasons expressed felt like a general impression that underneath all the spectacle, the film did not cohere well. Points of contention included gratuitous Mari, poor handling of Shikinami's development, how the minor characters were handled, Vatican Treaty out of nowhere as an inelegant way of forcing the pilot of EVA-03, and, given the short running time of the movie, the amount of time spent on eye-candy scenes at the cost of the above. The Shikinami slutsuit and crotch shots were also singled out as gratuitous.
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Re: Why Is Liking 2.22 Bad?
Does it actually matter whether you are or not? Is having the unconditional love and acceptance of all Eva fandom an important consideration for you?
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Re: Why Is Liking 2.22 Bad?
Gonna be honest, here - I never hated Eva Ha (2.x). I really enjoyed it. Complaining about the development of MINOR characters is truly the complaint of someone who WANTS to be pandered to so their "Best Waifu/Husbando" gets more screen time. But many were able to flip the argument to sound like it had something to do with "poor character writing" and that it's at fault for "pandering" to people who didn't care about the blonde scientist lady and the lesbian who has a crush on her that they totally wanna see bang, or some trash like that.
Eva Ha had just the right about of character building for a 90-ish minute movie. The only true fault of Eva Ha (for a lot of those here on the forum, anyway) was that it wasn't followed by Eva Q for three whole years.
Eva Ha had just the right about of character building for a 90-ish minute movie. The only true fault of Eva Ha (for a lot of those here on the forum, anyway) was that it wasn't followed by Eva Q for three whole years.
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Re: Why Is Liking 2.22 Bad?
The complaints were about the purely fan-service/box-checking roles of the peripheral characters, given the constrained running time of the piece -- things like "Why are Kensuke and Touji in this movie at all?" were the order of the day, rather than "needs moar Dr Pullring".
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Re: Why Is Liking 2.22 Bad?
I think there had been 2 major misconceptions at play here.
1) People were disappointed, how "mainstream" and "fun" and "fanservicey" 2.22 was, forgetting that a good part of NGE was just like that.
2) People were disappointed, that many characters got relegated to the sidelines. NTE has always been Shinji's story, something that became abundantly clear with 3.33.
1) People were disappointed, how "mainstream" and "fun" and "fanservicey" 2.22 was, forgetting that a good part of NGE was just like that.
2) People were disappointed, that many characters got relegated to the sidelines. NTE has always been Shinji's story, something that became abundantly clear with 3.33.
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Re: Why Is Liking 2.22 Bad?
I enjoyed 2.22, didn't realize it was a bad thing. It was a pretty good movie.
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Re: Why Is Liking 2.22 Bad?
Same here
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Re: Why Is Liking 2.22 Bad?
There really was an enormous meme going around, which probably still has some weight behind it despite 3.33, about ENT being a "happier, more well-adjusted" Eva. The sorts of folks who advocated this interpretation are also, I expect, in large part the same people who denied with all their heart and soul the in-your-face dark aspects of 2.22's ending and spun it into some kind of escapist narrative about Shinji's testes descending.
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Re: Why Is Liking 2.22 Bad?
That's the sort of reading you can take away from the original mission statements about the project being a more accessible telling of the story, combined with a "happier, more well-adjusted" Anno at the helm.
Having gone back recently and re-read the original thread where we discussed the early teaser material for the project, what it has actually delivered actually fits with what was promised a decade or so ago.
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Re: Why Is Liking 2.22 Bad?
^Do you have a link to that thread? That was well before I found the forum and I'm really curious about it.
I've noticed some people get really offended when the narrative is against Shinji this and shows his actions are in the wrong, as if being the main character automatically justifies his choices because he thinks he's right. Maybe it relates to how much a person identifies with/projects onto Shinji? I think he's the most boring of the main ensemble so it doesn't bother me when he screws up.
As for NTE being "happier, more well adjusted," isn't that what it still is? Q has some screwed up stuff in it, but it doesn't seem nearly as dark or bleak to me as the material from 19-26'. Shinji's still in his hole, but everyone else is in pretty good shape considering, the world shows hints of recovery, and it seems like Wille has a decent chance to win as opposed to Seele steamrolling everyone and losing last second thanks to Rei.
I like 2.0 because it gives a look at what the Eva world could be if things worked out for the better while still delivering the expected twists. In the aftermath of 3.0, I see it as an excellent set-up for a gut punch. The scenes of the desolate, Evabortion-filled Tokyo-3 are more effective since you've seen what it should look like.
Reichu wrote:There really was an enormous meme going around, which probably still has some weight behind it despite 3.33, about ENT being a "happier, more well-adjusted" Eva.
I've noticed some people get really offended when the narrative is against Shinji this and shows his actions are in the wrong, as if being the main character automatically justifies his choices because he thinks he's right. Maybe it relates to how much a person identifies with/projects onto Shinji? I think he's the most boring of the main ensemble so it doesn't bother me when he screws up.
As for NTE being "happier, more well adjusted," isn't that what it still is? Q has some screwed up stuff in it, but it doesn't seem nearly as dark or bleak to me as the material from 19-26'. Shinji's still in his hole, but everyone else is in pretty good shape considering, the world shows hints of recovery, and it seems like Wille has a decent chance to win as opposed to Seele steamrolling everyone and losing last second thanks to Rei.
I like 2.0 because it gives a look at what the Eva world could be if things worked out for the better while still delivering the expected twists. In the aftermath of 3.0, I see it as an excellent set-up for a gut punch. The scenes of the desolate, Evabortion-filled Tokyo-3 are more effective since you've seen what it should look like.
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Re: Why Is Liking 2.22 Bad?
Liking 2.22 is not bad at all. I like 2.22 so much that everytime i start my Eva run, i can't wait for the moment to see 2.22. As i said in the other thread, most people outside EvaGeeks prefer 2.22 out of the three movies.
Also, what's up with love/hate threads for 3.33 and 2.22 recently?
Also, what's up with love/hate threads for 3.33 and 2.22 recently?
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Re: Why Is Liking 2.22 Bad?
I have a hard time seeing it. We have the conflict from NGE protracted over an additional fifteen years, and everything in the film suggests that those fifteen years have been hell. It's different, to be sure, but it's far from happier and better-adjusted.
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Re: Why Is Liking 2.22 Bad?
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Re: Why Is Liking 2.22 Bad?
When going back in reading people's reaction to Ha on here, there seems to be an incredibly false notion that Ha wasn't really Eva. These people probably lost sight of the first half of NGE when being filled with dread in the second half. It's almost as bad as the "Q is a flawless masterpiece" crowd on here losing sight of the same thing (among other things). Neither Ha nor Q work without the other, the only difference with Ha's reaction back then was that people were ignorant of what was going to happen afterwards.
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Re: Why Is Liking 2.22 Bad?
The "the Action Arc was wacky too!" play was made back when the controversy was hot; I don't recall ever having seen it deal with Ha's in effect spanning episodes 7 to 23, and thus on balance should be at least as much "tumbling down" as not.
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Re: Why Is Liking 2.22 Bad?
LightDragonMan, you've said better and more eloquently than I ever could why I like 2.22 and dislike 3.33.
Re: Why Is Liking 2.22 Bad?
I think 2.22 is the best one by far. It's a good short retelling and adds a lot of interesting changes. Character development can be criticized, but seeing as it's non existent in 3.33 it's not really an issue to me.
Re: Why Is Liking 2.22 Bad?
Liking 2.22 isn't bad. Especially if you regard the whole Rebuild series as a criticism of Eva fans and tired anime tropes, which Anno is rather fond of doing.
Amarantos - an NGE AU, beginning with Asuka, Shinji, and a garden. Take a look. Couldn't hurt.
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Re: Why Is Liking 2.22 Bad?
I never knew about this "negativity" regarding 2.22 as I have, for the most part, strayed away from the Rebuild section of these forums so as to not have anything ruined for me regarding the movies. That being said, I loved 2.22 and the ending got me psyched for 3.33 all the more, DESPITE being full aware that it could only get darker from there. It evoked the same feeling I had when I first watched NGE back in 99 and Ritsuko were looking over the damaged Nerv HQ and talking about the devastation being "well beyond the Hemlick (or however it's spelled) limit." Just total and irrevocable destruction and the snowballing of despair that followed.
Anyway, there were moments in 2.22 that were quaint and beautiful (such as Misato's Antarctica flashback and the piano piece that accompanied it or Rei's dinner plans along with her smiling). There were others that were just crushing. For example, I think my jaw literally dropped when I saw that it was going to be Asuka, not Toji, to pilot Eva 3, especially as I had some semblance of her fragility regarding her need to be the best pilot and to not feel "beaten" by Shinji (based mostly within the context of NGE of course), and knowing full well that this single event could shatter her. Given how bad it got and that we didn't hear from her again in the movie, I was worried she might actually die, it's actually pretty incredible how awesomely she bounced back into action in 3.33, her battling prowess stole the show. There's a moment that resonated so greatly with me, when Misato said "We're older and aware of so many more burdens now." It means one thing in context and other things on a meta level. For starters, viewers who'd seen NGE have a larger perspective (at least up till that point) about what's going on in their world. Also, people who were younger watching NGE are like in their 20s and 30s now and so there is a comment on the experience that comes with age. This idea really hit home for me. This resonance in turn, made this movie more "impactful" in that the destruction of Eva 3 was even worse than it was in NGE. This and the ending, where Ritsuko says "This is the end of the world" (and all the build up that went with that line) actually made my eyes water.
Feel like just like the switch between the "Fun" of the action arc and the shadow that followed, 3.33 was a revelation and the kind of downward spiral I had been waiting for. I like both films. And just like the arcs of NGE, the Rebuild movies have a different feel to them and inspire different moods. I feel like everything in this series of films (and that sweet distant scene at the end of 3.33 with the three children walking away upon the red earth) is just where it needs to be, both with the intensity of emotions and with regard to the plot. I mean really, if 2.22 didn't evoke a certain level of feelings, then 3.33 is rendered meaningless. So, I would say liking it is in no way a bad thing. Of course, I still have questions about what's going on and what's going to happen, but I still have lingering thoughts and questions about NGE/EoE as well, so this is hardly a negative thing.
My lingering question is (and I ask with no malice, only curiosity): Who or what is Mari and what is her purpose?
Anyway, there were moments in 2.22 that were quaint and beautiful (such as Misato's Antarctica flashback and the piano piece that accompanied it or Rei's dinner plans along with her smiling). There were others that were just crushing. For example, I think my jaw literally dropped when I saw that it was going to be Asuka, not Toji, to pilot Eva 3, especially as I had some semblance of her fragility regarding her need to be the best pilot and to not feel "beaten" by Shinji (based mostly within the context of NGE of course), and knowing full well that this single event could shatter her. Given how bad it got and that we didn't hear from her again in the movie, I was worried she might actually die, it's actually pretty incredible how awesomely she bounced back into action in 3.33, her battling prowess stole the show. There's a moment that resonated so greatly with me, when Misato said "We're older and aware of so many more burdens now." It means one thing in context and other things on a meta level. For starters, viewers who'd seen NGE have a larger perspective (at least up till that point) about what's going on in their world. Also, people who were younger watching NGE are like in their 20s and 30s now and so there is a comment on the experience that comes with age. This idea really hit home for me. This resonance in turn, made this movie more "impactful" in that the destruction of Eva 3 was even worse than it was in NGE. This and the ending, where Ritsuko says "This is the end of the world" (and all the build up that went with that line) actually made my eyes water.
Feel like just like the switch between the "Fun" of the action arc and the shadow that followed, 3.33 was a revelation and the kind of downward spiral I had been waiting for. I like both films. And just like the arcs of NGE, the Rebuild movies have a different feel to them and inspire different moods. I feel like everything in this series of films (and that sweet distant scene at the end of 3.33 with the three children walking away upon the red earth) is just where it needs to be, both with the intensity of emotions and with regard to the plot. I mean really, if 2.22 didn't evoke a certain level of feelings, then 3.33 is rendered meaningless. So, I would say liking it is in no way a bad thing. Of course, I still have questions about what's going on and what's going to happen, but I still have lingering thoughts and questions about NGE/EoE as well, so this is hardly a negative thing.
My lingering question is (and I ask with no malice, only curiosity): Who or what is Mari and what is her purpose?
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