Who became God? [Tags: Third Impact/Adam/Lilith/etc.]

[LennardF1989]

This thread is a spinoff of an other thread, to prevent it from going off-topic.

The following was said about Rei:

Of course she's broken, but she seems to actually kind've get better at the end. She certainly gets as close as she's ever going to.

Was that before or after she grew a million feet tall and her head fell off?

Both. She pretty much solves her emotional issues as best as they're gonna get, then she becomes God and does one of the most selfless, affectionate things anyone has, and can ever do.

Which brought me to the following:
Ok, I feel like I have to drop in. Rei DIDN'T become god, Shinji did, haven't you been paying attention ;)

If Rei wouldn't have 'betrayed' Gendo, Gendo would have become God.

This statement is backed up by the fact Shinji decided that the world needed to have individuals, because else, there would be no reason to live (and the other things he said).

Ok, I feel contradicted by my intrepetation now >.< Because to start the "Third Impact", Adam was needed. Because the Commitee didn't have Adam, they used a "clone" of Adam, Unit 01. But they also needed Lilith, which soul was in Rei, and since Rei got the hand of Gendo (with Adam on it), Lilith and Adma were already unit.

MASSSIIVVVEEE confusion. Could someone explain his point of view, am I missing something in the whole Adam/Lilith thing? To start "Third Impact" Lilith and Adam had to be united, right?

Besides that, what was the reason the Commitee wanted a Third Impact? If they didn't had Adam, they knew that using Unit-01 would make the pilot God, so that wasn't their reason. AAHHH!!!

Help?!

EDIT:
After rethinking it, I came to the following.

It's widely known both Gendo and the leaders of Seele (I referred to them as the Commitee) wanted the start their own Third Impact.

Gendo tried to start it by uniting himself with Lilith through Rei (as he - Gendo - posessed Adam).

Meanwhile, the Commitee had already started their own ritual to start the third impact.

Because they started it before Gendo could, Shinji (as the pilot of Unit-01, thus the "Adam" the Commitee needed) becomes God.

Therefor, Rei (AKA Lilith) had no choice but to unite with the Adam that was there first (Shinji).

At least, that's what I think. I would imagine that, if the Commitee didn't succeed their ritual, Rei would have been God, because Gendo gave her Adam.

Sounds reasonable, right?

[Annihilationscape]

Real quick, I wanted to correct some things and ask for clarification on some others.

Unit-01 is a clone of Lilith, not Adam. The other Eva units are Adam clones, but not Unit-01. It's one of the things which makes it special.

Third Impact was, in its simplest form, initiated by the "forbidden union of Adam and Lilith", via Unit-01 as the conduit bearing the Fruit of Life and the Fruit of Knowlege (debate continues on precisely what this means, but the S2 organ is most likely at least one of the two). Others can probably offer some better clarification here.

On that note, Fuyutski pretty clearly states in End of Evangelion that Unit-01 "has become a god", at least so far as its capability of initating Third Impact is concerned. However, ultimately the choice of what to do with Instrumentality is left in the hands of Shinji, so it would not be incorrect to consider him to be a "god" in that case as well.

If Rei wouldn't have 'betrayed' Gendo, Gendo would have become God.

Could you elaborate on what you mean here? I don't follow; maybe I'm just dense :P

[LennardF1989]

You know that Gendo had that kind of eye on his hand, right? That was Adam.

Gendo's intententions with Rei was to unite himself through Adam with her, so she could unite herself with the body of Lilith they had captured.

Therefor, because Gendo was "the Adam", he would become God. But instead, Rei betrayed Gendo, and took the Adam herself.

This is really confusing now, I need to think, please discuss.

[Annihilationscape]

To the best of my knowledge, Gendo wanted Human Instrumentality. I don't think he had any intention of becoming a god, at least he never stated as much. (It is curious that he seemed to act so betrayed by Rei when she removed his hand along with Adam, though.) Gendo just wanted to be reunited with Yui again. "Take me to my Yui's side."

We actually never really find out if Gendo was complemented or just died, or what happened to him, although if EoTV is any indication, he was there during instrumentality.

Also, just because Gendo had possession of the Adam embryo, he wasn't necessarily 'the Adam'. Adam was still Adam; it was just being stored there for (extremely) safe keeping.

[Reichu]

Unit-01 is a clone of Lilith, not Adam. The other Eva units are Adam clones, but not Unit-01. It's one of the things which makes it special.

As a sort of advance warning to Lennard, my old theory about Eva-01 being a clone of Adam who was born from Lilith -- originally proposed to reconcile some apparent inconsistencies -- is still rather casually tossed around.

Third Impact was, in its simplest form, initiated by the "forbidden union of Adam and Lilith", via Unit-01 as the conduit bearing the Fruit of Life and the Fruit of Knowlege (debate continues on precisely what this means, but the S2 organ is most likely at least one of the two). Others can probably offer some better clarification here.

Third Impact never, to my knowledge, had to involve a "forbidden union of Adam of Lilith", just particular versions of it. For example, an Angel could have theoretically tapped Adam (huh, huh huh huh) and triggered a 3I that way. Seele’s version of 3I would have involved the MP Eva Series manipulating Lilith and the Spear of Longinus; but it’s completely unknown whether any “fusion” would have occurred between Lilith and the Evas (sort of like what we got in EoE? :shudder: ), assuming that kind of fusion “counts”.

The S2 Engine is pretty unambiguous, since Seele moan about Eva-01 having become a “god” right after she eats it, and Fuyutsuki later says that Eva-01 is a “god” on account of having both fruits. S2 Engine = FoL is also stated in the CI that everyone loves so much.

If Rei wouldn't have 'betrayed' Gendo, Gendo would have become God.

Could you elaborate on what you mean here? I don't follow; maybe I'm just dense :P

I presume this is “God” in the same sense as:

However, ultimately the choice of what to do with Instrumentality is left in the hands of Shinji, so it would not be incorrect to consider him to be a "god" in that case as well.

That is, “God” because you have absolute control over the fate of all humanity, which is a privilege traditionally associated with supreme, superhuman beings.

As far as Rei becoming “God” – this is fairly straightforward. She reintegrates with her true self, the creator-being Lilith, and assumes an otherworldly and all-powerful incarnation that transcends time and space and controls the forces of life and death. In summation, a real-life (in the NGE universe) manifestation of the primordial mother-goddess, with many of the traits of less tangible creator-gods.

Also, Lennard, you're talking about an "eye" on Gendo's hand. Are you referring to the manga version here?

[AuraTwilight]

Ok, I feel like I have to drop in. Rei DIDN'T become god, Shinji did, haven't you been paying attention

`
Yes, I did. Rei was the one who physically held the Godlike power, status, etc., but she decided to use her power to give Shinji what he wanted, and thus put responsibility in his hands, even though he did not literaly have any inherent divinity.

If Rei wouldn't have 'betrayed' Gendo, Gendo would have become God.

Well, the Rei/Adam/Lilith/Gendo hybrid, sure.

Ok, I feel contradicted by my intrepetation now >.< Because to start the "Third Impact", Adam was needed. Because the Commitee didn't have Adam, they used a "clone" of Adam, Unit 01. But they also needed Lilith, which soul was in Rei, and since Rei got the hand of Gendo (with Adam on it), Lilith and Adma were already unit.

No, they had both Lilith and Adam. Unit 01 was intended as an emergency replacement for Lilith if it hypothetically came down to it. Apparently, Unit 01 is a clone of Lilith (maybe).

MASSSIIVVVEEE confusion. Could someone explain his point of view, am I missing something in the whole Adam/Lilith thing? To start "Third Impact" Lilith and Adam had to be united, right?

Yes, most forms of Third Impact require bringing together the Fruits of Life and Knowledge, which are represented by Adam and Lilith, respectively. Gendo, who had Adam's body (and apparently soul) in his hand, planned to merge with Rei, then with Lilith, then apparently merge with Unit 01 and use it as some sort of "ark", dodging Third Impact with humanity in tow and either dumping everyone out, or dumping out everyone except him and Yui.

Besides that, what was the reason the Commitee wanted a Third Impact? If they didn't had Adam, they knew that using Unit-01 would make the pilot God, so that wasn't their reason. AAHHH!!!

They had Adam and Lilith. They merged the two together in order to destroy individuality, erase original sin, and create a "paradise" where no one suffers because everyone is one single, gestalt soul. In their opinion, that entity would be God. Though they didn't really plan for Shinji to be put in the "divine cockpit", so to speak, at that point they were kind've rooting for him since they expected him, with his mental trauma, to decide to destroy the barriers between everyone and acquire SEELE's goal.

Because they started it before Gendo could, Shinji (as the pilot of Unit-01, thus the "Adam" the Commitee needed) becomes God.

Er...no. Technically Gendo started his first, and Rei said, "lol, no" and took the reins herself and did her version, IE, giving responsibility to Shinji.

Therefor, Rei (AKA Lilith) had no choice but to unite with the Adam that was there first (Shinji).

Shinji/Unit 01 isn't Adam, and Rei gave Shinji choice of his own free will, not that she was forced to. The entire thing is her decision to pay back Shinji for all the kindness he showed her. She decided Gendo sucks and Shinji is more worthy of her affection, loyalty, and love, so she decided to literally give him everything he could ever want.

At least, that's what I think. I would imagine that, if the Commitee didn't succeed their ritual, Rei would have been God, because Gendo gave her Adam.

SEELE's only real involvement was the Mass Production Evangelions, which apparently existed to get rid of Unit 02 and to somehow call down the Lance of Longinus.

To the best of my knowledge, Gendo wanted Human Instrumentality.

Technically, no. He had no intention of merging all of humanity. He just wanted to either revive Yui, or go inside Unit 01 with her. Either or.

We actually never really find out if Gendo was complemented or just died, or what happened to him, although if EoTV is any indication, he was there during instrumentality.

Not really. A big chunk of Gendo's presence is pre-Instrumentality, there, such as when he came for Rei, and after that, it's more likely he's a manifestation of Shinji's memories, backed up by EoE, where his corpse is left behind and not tanged, and Yui, Rei, and Kaworu all seem to reject his soul instead of complementing it.

[mat smith]

Also, Lennard, you're talking about an "eye" on Gendo's hand. Are you referring to the manga version here?

I have to admit that I actually thought it was an eye the first time I saw it (anime).

[Annihilationscape]

My interpretation of the initiation of Third Impact involving the forbidden union of Adam and Lilith came from a quote from Gendo in some episode which I can't recall of the top of my head.

In any event, wouldn't Adam be necessary for Third Impact to begin, or was Lilith all that was needed? Or is that the difference between an "Angel 3I" and a "Human 3I"? I remember that being discussed a while back.

[LennardF1989]

Also, Lennard, you're talking about an "eye" on Gendo's hand. Are you referring to the manga version here?

I have to admit that I actually thought it was an eye the first time I saw it (anime).

You only see it briefly (two times a split second I believe), and because I was to lazy to pause, it looked like an eye.

I'm going to wrote some stuff down to clarify, for some reason I can't drop thinking about Evangelion without having everything solved (everythings as much as clear, besides the actual use of Third Impact).

It's said before, but WHY did the commitee want the Third Impact? Did the leader intent to become a god in the all-in-one humand body? Or is it just because the scrolls told them they had too? What kind of gain was there into it for them?
They invested money, for what? To turn into luiqid and be ruled by Rei and Shinji? I don't buy it.

For Gendo, it's as much as clear, he intented to become God so he could go to the place where Yui was (that's why Steele and Gendo actually started working against eachother, because Gendo acted on his own).

[Mr. Tines]

>Rei DIDN'T become god, Shinji did
Shekinah, the alchymic marriage of Adam and Lilith became SysOp with direct access to also sorts of anti-AT field based soul manipulating h4x; Shinji merely had socially engineered privileged access to the SysOp.

I hope that clarifies matters

>If Rei wouldn't have 'betrayed' Gendo, Gendo would have become God.

If he had been a part of the Shekinah, then, yes, he would have been an actual SysOp.

>You know that Gendo had that kind of eye on his hand, right?

I can't pass up this opportunity...

http://www.evacommentary.org/images_capdoc/reichu_adam-gendo-sessions.jpg

[VoidEater]

^
Exactly!

[LennardF1989]

>Rei DIDN'T become god, Shinji did
Shekinah, the alchymic marriage of Adam and Lilith became SysOp with direct access to also sorts of anti-AT field based soul manipulating h4x; Shinji merely had socially engineered privileged access to the SysOp.

I hope that clarifies matters

>If Rei wouldn't have 'betrayed' Gendo, Gendo would have become God.

If he had been a part of the Shekinah, then, yes, he would have been an actual SysOp.

>You know that Gendo had that kind of eye on his hand, right?

I can't pass up this opportunity...

http://www.evacommentary.org/images_capdoc/reichu_adam-gendo-sessions.jpg

'
Ok, that just made me laugh big time, thanks.

But it indeed is an eye ;)

Not to hijack my own thread, but I just read into the Third Impact Wikipage, and came to this page:
http://www.evageeks.org/FGP/Contact_Experiment

At the top it says:

"Contact Experiment" (接触実験, sesshoku jikken) is a term used to describe the process in which a human has contact with any Adam-type being. Known subjects are Yui Ikari with Evangelion Unit-01 and Kyoko Zeppelin Soryu with Evangelion Unit-02. There was also a Contact Experiment between a human and Adam that initiated Second Impact.

Someone just told me that Unit-01 is made out of Lilith (also backed up by the shots you see in the directors cut), and because humans are made from Lilith too, the "Contact Experiment"-rule doesn't apply, right. Meaning the "Yui Ikari with Evangelion Unit-01"-example is faulty and has an other cause.

From my point of view, the Evangelions were just vessels without a soul (like the Rei vessels) and would just take whichever soul came to them first. It would make more sense aswell, because the current "Contact Experiment"-theory is contradicting itself.

[VoidEater]

^ Too strict an interpretation of "Adam-like being."

[LennardF1989]

^ Too strict an interpretation of "Adam-like being."

Does that mean I'm wrong?

If a "Contact Experiment" is basically to contact between a human and a Lilith- or Adam-type being, it should say that. Everything is already very confusing as it is.

If it's not that either, an other theory has to be thought of.

[Sailor Star Dust]

In any event, wouldn't Adam be necessary for Third Impact to begin, or was Lilith all that was needed? Or is that the difference between an "Angel 3I" and a "Human 3I"?

Dunno if it counts for anything, but the Eva2 game (you know, the game Anno was interviewed for, wrote up the Confidential Information for, and gave his input on the events engine) has the following:

Seele's version involving Lilith and Adam (It ends with Eva-01 standing at the post-3I beach with the LCL sea ahead of her), Gendo's version involving Lilith and Adam (After everybody tangs, we see young Gendo laying on Yui's lap on a peaceful looking beach), an Angel reaching Lilith version (I think when Kaworu reaches there it's slightly different, I forget; either way it just fades to black after everybody turns to LCL), Lilith and Adam merging version (the Eva-01 with hair as she stands on the post-3I beach with the spear ending), and EoE itself. There's also Rei joining Lilith and becoming GNR in Misato's best ending, but instead of reverting everybody LCL, she just kinda....stands there while Seele freaks out that Lilith isn't doing what they want.

Anyway, in the Misato ending, it seems to be just Lilith herself. All the other endings involve either Lilith and Adam, or Lilith and an Angel. Hope that helps.

[Reichu]

The "Contact Experiment" EG-wiki page was probably deriving its "definition" from the assumption that Eva-01 has at least a little Adam in her, which may not be the case. I took the liberty of fixing it, and hopefully it's more accurate now. (What? I just logged into my wiki account? Unpossible!!!!) We're a bunch of lazy and negligent bastards, and there are still lots of errors lurking in the poor Evapedia.

Seele's version involving Lilith and Adam

There is such a thing?

It's said before, but WHY did the commitee want the Third Impact? Did the leader intent to become a god in the all-in-one humand body? Or is it just because the scrolls told them they had too? What kind of gain was there into it for them?

Seele believed that we'd reached the limit of our evolutionary potential and that the only thing left to do was just go back to square one: get rid of our bodies and stuff everybody back into the primordial soul-womb where we can melt together into eternal and perfect nothing-everything-ness.

The gain? Well, they're a cult. (Just listen to them in EoE. Religious kooks, the lot of them.) This is how they all get to "become one with God", and stuff. And at least some of them might actually believe that they ARE doing the right thing for humanity.

Shekinah, the alchymic marriage of Adam and Lilith became SysOp with direct access to also sorts of anti-AT field based soul manipulating h4x; Shinji merely had socially engineered privileged access to the SysOp.

Inimitable, as ever.

[AuraTwilight]

In any event, wouldn't Adam be necessary for Third Impact to begin, or was Lilith all that was needed? Or is that the difference between an "Angel 3I" and a "Human 3I"? I remember that being discussed a while back.

Human 3I involves a fusion of both fruits. The Angels just wanted to merge with Adam so they could destroy all Lilith-based life and take over the planet.

t's said before, but WHY did the commitee want the Third Impact? Did the leader intent to become a god in the all-in-one humand body? Or is it just because the scrolls told them they had too? What kind of gain was there into it for them?
They invested money, for what? To turn into luiqid and be ruled by Rei and Shinji? I don't buy it.

It was pretty much a religious thing, as I just explained. They wanted everyone to "return to the Garden of Eden", a state of unity and tranquility. There is no happiness or individuality, but there is no suffering or loneliness either. A perfect, peaceful calm. Paradise. Godhood. No bodies, no minds. Just one big soul covering the planet inthe form of LCL.

Someone just told me that Unit-01 is made out of Lilith (also backed up by the shots you see in the directors cut), and because humans are made from Lilith too, the "Contact Experiment"-rule doesn't apply, right. Meaning the "Yui Ikari with Evangelion Unit-01"-example is faulty and has an other cause.

From my point of view, the Evangelions were just vessels without a soul (like the Rei vessels) and would just take whichever soul came to them first. It would make more sense aswell, because the current "Contact Experiment"-theory is contradicting itself.

Context. The Contact Experiments involving Yui/Unit 01 and Kyoko/Unit 02 aren't the same as the one conducted involving Adam and the Lance (The Lance was Adam's, btw, so your idea of Contact Experiments having to involve the two fruits is faulty).

If a "Contact Experiment" is basically to contact between a human and a Lilith- or Adam-type being, it should say that.

It's not, though.

[LennardF1989]

Hmm, I see.

Though, isn't the term "Contact Experiment" a wrong choice of words in the case of the Evangelions?

Or is poking into Adam and Lilith considered the "Contact Experiment" and the contact of a human with Evangelions a testdrive which they just called a contact experiment aswell (note the use of asteriks).

Though, in EoE, there is one thing I still don't quite get... The Seele leaders started their ritual (What exactly did this ritual do besides turning Shini in a Tree, what's it's purpose, what did they intented to do with it?) when Shinji came to the battlefield with his Unit-01, why didn't he start fighting? Or was he so upset seeing that Asuka died that he didn't care anymore?

[Ornette]

I've always thought that the ritual was simply a formality for Seele and didn't really do anything. As for Eva-01, I figured it was Yui at the helm with Shinji just long for the ride.

[NemZ]

I'm thinking any time a SoL wakes up and does ATF vodoo counts as an impact, really. One, both, fused with an angel/human/each other/everything... lots of possibilities, all of them leading to a very bad day.